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Toughest courses

admin — Mon, 08 Dec 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I just read a review of a golf course in Panama City Florida that said "Lagoon Legend has a course rating of 75.3 and a slope rating of 152 from its championship tees, which sets it apart as the second most challenging course in the United States". A quick check found The International at Castle Pines is tougher: http://www.gcsaa.org/media/factsheets/2002/pgatour/international.asp But it is quite possible that the person who wrote the review didn’t mean "all courses", or didn’t do research. What are the toughest courses in the United States and in the world? What are the toughest public courses in the United States and in the world? Are there some real tough courses that are not designed very well?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just read a review of a golf course in Panama City Florida that said "Lagoon Legend has a course rating of 75.3 and a slope rating of 152 from its championship tees, which sets it apart as the second most challenging course in the United States". A quick check found The International at Castle Pines is tougher: http://www.gcsaa.org/media/factsheets/2002/pgatour/international.asp But it is quite possible that the person who wrote the review didn’t mean "all courses", or didn’t do research. What are the toughest courses in the United States and in the world? What are the toughest public courses in the United States and in the world? Are there some real tough courses that are not designed very well?

Howard, I’d suggest you look at Dean Knuth’s article here: http://www.popeofslope.com/courserating/toughest.html You might also want to look at other articles on course rating on his site. BTW, I’ve played the International at Bolton, MA (previous toughest) and that’s a LOT of golf course!!! Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at brucenewman dot com * http://brucenewman.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I just read a review of a golf course in Panama City Florida that said "Lagoon Legend has a course rating of 75.3 and a slope rating of 152 from its championship tees, which sets it apart as the second most challenging course in the United States". A quick check found The International at Castle Pines is tougher: http://www.gcsaa.org/media/factsheets/2002/pgatour/international.asp But it is quite possible that the person who wrote the review didn’t mean "all courses", or didn’t do research. What are the toughest courses in the United States and in the world? What are the toughest public courses in the United States and in the world? Are there some real tough courses that are not designed very well?

Presuming that this is still accurate, Koolau Golf Club in Hawaii is the most difficult course in the U.S., with a slope of 162 and rating of 76.4 from the back tees at 7,310 yards. More information at: http://www.koolaugolfclub.com/golf.cfm HTH, Marc Schwartz

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That indicates that the Lagoon Legend of 75.3/152 is NOT the 2nd toughest slope in the U.S. – but the article did say "rating". We have found Ko’olau has 162, and the two Internationals (Castle Pines & Bolton both have 155). Also The International has a rating of 77.4. I would expect that one or both of these also has a tougher rating. But I don’t know for sure. (And it could be that the author didn’t notice a qualification – of public courses in Continental U.S. only – or something like that). Is Bolton’s a public course?

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What are the toughest courses in the United States and in the world?

Well, between looking at a scorecard from Bandon Dunes and some of the articles on the Pope of Slope’s site, Bandon just misses the list of "Courses with the highest slope ratings from the middle tees" – the golds (whites) are 69.7/132 – not bad for a course that’s 5716 yards long. The Green tees (blues) play to 72.1/141, and the big bad Blacks are 74.6/145. What I find interesting, though, is that the greens at Pacific Dunes sit at 70.9/131, and I found it MUCH tougher. But slope and rating doesn’t really seem to take how penal the rough is into consideration…and at Bandon, you seemed to always have a chance at escape. At Pac, you were dead – if you found your ball… Prof. Rev. Todd "Runyan" McGillivray, Esq. http://cplhicks.tripod.com/ Emailing me? tmcg at sasktel dot net. "Not sure what four nines does, but the ace, I think, is pretty high." – Danny Ocean, Ocean’s Eleven

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[...] Is Bolton’s a public course?

Nope. Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at brucenewman dot com * http://brucenewman.com

Response:

[...] What I find interesting, though, is that the greens at Pacific Dunes sit at 70.9/131, and I found it MUCH tougher. But slope and rating doesn’t really seem to take how penal the rough is into consideration…and at Bandon, you seemed to always have a chance at escape. At Pac, you were dead – if you found your ball…

I haven’t seen these courses, Todd, but the USGA Rating System does indeed take rough into consideration…maybe even too much so since other obstacle ratings are based on rough height. (i.e. change the height and it changes several values in several other categories). Also, extremely deep, dense rough can (and should) be rated just as you would rate for OB. Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at brucenewman dot com * http://brucenewman.com

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The one I’m playing tomorrow.

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I’ve been very lucky this year and have played some of the top courses in the country, Pebble, Pinehurst, Orlando/Tampa area. but these two are real somabitches…. Kiawah Island Resort (Ocean Course) Rating 77.2 Slope 144 Par 72 Yardage 7296 Tobacco Road Rating 73.2 Slope 150 Par 71 Yardage 6554 What are the toughest courses in the United States and in the world? What are the toughest public courses in the United States and in the

world?

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Tobacco Road Rating 73.2 Slope 150 Par 71 Yardage 6554

A 150 slope at only 6554 yards?!? Wow. That’s gotta be tight and with a lot of water eh? — Washington State University "That shot is impossible!…Jack Nicholson himself couldn’t make it!"– Homer Simpson

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Maybe that’s what confuses me so much about Pacific’s ratings, then. You had…well, decently wide fairways, then a little bit of rough (but it wasn’t grown up at all, it was just like they didn’t water it) and then sand and gorse and other mysterious bushes. It’s way more penal than Bandon’s rough, and it’s got more OB, too…maybe it was the cross bunkering at Bandon that knocks the numbers around? I remember you explaining how things work that day we played in Hampton, and a lot of it has to do with the hazards you can reach with an assumed 200 yard drive (180 carry 20 roll) for a bogey golfer, and the scratch guy is 250 (225/25 with a draw)…and the width of those landing areas, any forced carries…yeah, it’s starting to add up. I don’t know. My memory’s skewed because I had no tee ball both rounds at Pacific but hit it decently well all three rounds at Bandon. I think I’m just embarrassed at the quality of play I turned in at Pacific, and am looking for excuses Prof. Rev. Todd "Runyan" McGillivray, Esq. http://cplhicks.tripod.com/ Emailing me? tmcg at sasktel dot net. "Not sure what four nines does, but the ace, I think, is pretty high." – Danny Ocean, Ocean’s Eleven

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: Tobacco Road : Rating 73.2 : Slope 150 : Par 71 : Yardage 6554 : :A 150 slope at only 6554 yards?!? Wow. That’s gotta be tight and with a :lot of water eh? : : Looks very entertaining from this: http://www.tobaccoroadgolf.com/hole1.html I don’t think it’s gonna make my "less than $40 with a cart" list though.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : Tobacco Road : Rating 73.2 : Slope 150 : Par 71 : Yardage 6554 : :A 150 slope at only 6554 yards?!? Wow. That’s gotta be tight and with a :lot of water eh? : : Looks very entertaining from this: http://www.tobaccoroadgolf.com/hole1.html I don’t think it’s gonna make my "less than $40 with a cart" list though.

Ummmm, am I reading this wrong (please?) http://www.tobaccoroadgolf.com/hole6.html A 333 yard par 3! Almost all carry?! YIKES! Larry

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Tobacco Road Rating 73.2 Slope 150 Par 71 Yardage 6554 A 150 slope at only 6554 yards?!? Wow. That’s gotta be tight and with a lot of water eh?

It’s a pretty wild ride. I played there this spring and it’s a surreal kind of experience. It’s one of those courses that you probably need to play ten times before you’re confident about exactly where the hell you’re supposed to be hitting the ball. You really need a reliable tee ball on this course. My uncle got up on one of the huge mounds on the first hole and made triple. I laughed it up until I screwed myself over with my second shot (because I didn’t really know the distances). I think I made double or triple, too. (Follow along at http://www.tobaccoroadgolf.com/hole1.html !) I came to the second tee and asked "where’s the fairway?" Answer: over that long carry. I hit the third green and three-jacked. I pulled my drive on #4 a bit and it bounded into the waste area — I had to hit my best shot of the week to get a par there. 5’s a nightmare. 6 is a freak show — of course, I topped my tee shot and made an 8 or something. 7 is a fun hole, unless you don’t have an accurate approach shot. :-) 9 is a freaking nightmare for a short hitter like me. I couldn’t carry to the middle portion of the fairway, so I was trying to thread a driver into a five-yard wide little bit of fairway. I pushed it into a hazard instead, then dropped and had to lay up with a 7-iron, or try to thread a fairway wood into the little neck of an approach (it’s wicked uphill, too). I think I picked up on that hole. 10 is hard, especially if you hit a fade. 11 is a friggin roller coaster — that waste area short of the green is only about 50 feet deep. Death awaits, with nasty claws and pointy teeth. I had no idea what club to hit. :-) 12 is crazy — downhill tee shot, but you have to hit the right line and distance (ie, guess). Then an approach that needs to be perfect if you want to be able to see the flag for your third — there are two bumps short of the green that block your view! 14 is easy — just rip a 5-iron to within ten feet and make your putt for birdie (that’s what my uncle and I both did, with big shit-eating grins on our faces). 15 is a hit-and-pray downhiller — no idea where to go or what line to take or what awaited me at the green (a three- putt as it turns out). 16 is a punchline of a par four — uphill, TIGHT, and a crazy arrangement of green/bunkers. I should have played it 7-iron, wedge, wedge. 18 is a fitting end — rip your drive right down the middle, and get good elevation, or you’ll just plug it into the face of a 30-foot high wall of crap. Slice — crap. Hook — crap. There was a *lot* of waste area stuff. I mean, it was pretty much within 15 feet of the fairway and the green, everywhere. It wasn’t manicured bunker sand, either — you get what you get. I’ll say this about Tobacco Road — it’s a memorable course. I played it once, this April, and remember every darn hole and what I did on it. My memory sucks, too, so this is a remarkable thing. If you visit Pinehurst, stay an extra day and play Tobacco Road. It’s as wild a ride as you can get in golf. Doug — ___, Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer o IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | / | . My homepage: http://doug.obscurestuff.com (|)

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Oh, come on — splurge for one round. It’s not *that* expensive ($46-$58 during the week, off season, which includes the cart). I’m not saying you should pay that every time out, but you should really try something like this once. If you fly me to North Carolina, I’ll meet you there and pay for your greens fees. :-) Doug — ___, Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer o IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | / | . My homepage: http://doug.obscurestuff.com (|)

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says… : : Looks very entertaining from this: : : http://www.tobaccoroadgolf.com/hole1.html : : I don’t think it’s gonna make my "less than $40 with a cart" list : though. : :Oh, come on — splurge for one round. It’s not *that* expensive ($46-$58 :during the week, off season, which includes the cart). I’m not saying :you should pay that every time out, but you should really try something :like this once. : :If you fly me to North Carolina, I’ll meet you there and pay for your :greens fees. :-) : I saw the rates – great deal. The first thing I saw was $259 but that was for a package I guess. Yes, it looks like a screaming deal. jmkanes

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My toughest course was always Humanities. The instructors said I wasn’t cut out for human social contact. What a bunch of dried out windbags.

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The 5th is a 333-yd par four, and apparently they forgot to change the yardage on the web page for the 6th. It’s actually a very short hole (133/143/148 yards). Doug — ___, Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer o IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | / | . My homepage: http://doug.obscurestuff.com (|)

Response:

The Crosswater course in Sunriver OR. has to rank up there with 76.9 / 150 from the tips, 7683 yards. http://www.sunriverresort.com/htm/information/recgolfspa/golf/crosswa…

Response:

: I just read a review of a golf course in Panama City Florida that said :"Lagoon : Legend has a course rating of 75.3 and a slope rating of 152 from its : championship tees, which sets it apart as the second most challenging :course in : the United States". : :The Crosswater course in Sunriver OR. has to rank up there with 76.9 / 150 :from the tips, 7683 yards. :http://www.sunriverresort.com/htm/information/recgolfspa/golf/crosswa… : : : Here it is, you have to click on the link at the bottom to see it hole by hole. Looks very nice. Is it less than $40 with cart though? :-) http://www.sunriverresort.com/htm/information/recgolfspa/ click on golf, then Crosswater then the link at the bottom to see the course "hole by hole".

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says… What are the toughest courses in the United States and in the world? What are the toughest public courses in the United States and in the world? Are there some real tough courses that are not designed very well?

Tobacco Road in North Carolina Slope 150+ Rating 73.2 6554 Yds from the tips.

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Tobacco Road is a monster that ate my lunch — and I can’t wait to go back!!! Kenny — Kenny Stultz – Troll and SPAM intolerant RSG Rollcall: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=stultzk "Golf is the only sport where a precise knowledge of the Rules can earn one a reputation for poor sportsmanship"

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Slope doesn’t indicate toughness. It indicates how much harder it is for bogey shooters versus par shooters. With a rating of 73.2 it is tough, but nothing special. The slope of 150 would bring it up higher for bogey shooters, but for them it is probably much harder than my home course for nowhere near the toughest I’ve played, and I’ve never even been to places like Ko’lau or The International so I don’t think it or Tobacco Road are even in the same orbit as the real toughest courses. — "I feel sorry for people who don’t drink. When they wake up in the morning, that’s as good as they’re going to feel all day" — Frank Sinatra

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What are the toughest courses in the United States and in the world? Well, between looking at a scorecard from Bandon Dunes and some of the articles on the Pope of Slope’s site, Bandon just misses the list of "Courses with the highest slope ratings from the middle tees" – the golds (whites) are 69.7/132 – not bad for a course that’s 5716 yards long. The Green tees (blues) play to 72.1/141, and the big bad Blacks are 74.6/145.

I’ve played more than a few courses that slope well over 140, and some of them slope pretty close to that from the middle tees. I’ll bet you have to slope 145+ to hit the list of "highest slope ratings from the middle tees". Though I guess the definition of "middle tees" is kind of flexible when you have four sets of tees. There are an awful lot of nasty little courses in Florida that seem to have water on one side and OB (houses) on the other side on just about every hole, and you hit over a little pond or stream on every other shot. Those sorts of courses don’t have a very high rating (not that hard for scratch players) but they are murder on slope ratings, I wouldn’t be surprised if some retirement home course would make a list of highest slopes from the middle tees — "I feel sorry for people who don’t drink. When they wake up in the morning, that’s as good as they’re going to feel all day" — Frank Sinatra

Response:

Played again…….Problems

admin — Fri, 05 Dec 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I’m starting to get out more. My ball striking is getting much better, although I have unresolved issues with my driver. I don’t think it’s speaking to me. Right now the problem that I have is teeing it up with others. I can relax and play all day when I play alone, but put me with others and I choke like I have a rag full of gasoline down my throat. When I play alone, I just cruise along, hit a couple of extra balls, chips and such, and enjoy the golf experience. For some reason I can’t get comfortable when I golf with others. I’m sure that this is something that will pass also, it’s just a little disturbing. Chris S.

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Right now the problem that I have is teeing it up with others. I can relax

work on it at the range…make believe (thats right) you are playing in a group and get used to it…when you have it mastered at range it will be easier on course

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golf experience. For some reason I can’t get comfortable when I golf with others. I’m sure that this is something that will pass also, it’s just a little disturbing.

Happens to me, too, Chris. As the round goes on, I do relax some, but the first four or five holes are tough for me to settle down among strangers. I believe this problem is in our heads, however, which means we should be able to fix it, given time. I’ll let you know if I come up with something. -b

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How long have you been playing? I used to have the same experience for the first couple of years I played. Now after 4 years (mostly walk-on rounds with strangers), it seldom bothers me. In fact, now I much prefer playing with other folks, and the (infrequent) occasions where I have to go ’round by myself are a little boring (but better practice since you can hit a few extra shots). I suspect it’s mostly just getting comfortable with your game, losing that fear of hitting the shank/grounder/fat/whiff. Also, you discover that most players out there aren’t *that* good. There’s the occasional plus hcp, but even then they usually don’t care as long as you can advance the ball and maintain a decent pace. Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m starting to get out more. My ball striking is getting much better, although I have unresolved issues with my driver. I don’t think it’s speaking to me. Right now the problem that I have is teeing it up with others. I can relax and play all day when I play alone, but put me with others and I choke like I have a rag full of gasoline down my throat. When I play alone, I just cruise along, hit a couple of extra balls, chips and such, and enjoy the golf experience. For some reason I can’t get comfortable when I golf with others. I’m sure that this is something that will pass also, it’s just a little disturbing. Chris S.

Response:

Stick a flask of bourbon in the bag.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m starting to get out more. My ball striking is getting much better, although I have unresolved issues with my driver. I don’t think it’s speaking to me. Right now the problem that I have is teeing it up with others. I can relax and play all day when I play alone, but put me with others and I choke like I have a rag full of gasoline down my throat. When I play alone, I just cruise along, hit a couple of extra balls, chips and such, and enjoy the golf experience. For some reason I can’t get comfortable when I golf with others. I’m sure that this is something that will pass also, it’s just a little disturbing. Chris S.

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Right now the problem that I have is teeing it up with others. I can relax and play all day when I play alone, but put me with others and I choke like I have a rag full of gasoline down my throat.

So what’s different? Are you more hurried? Do you find it harder to pay attention to golf? Are you wanting to make your swing look good? Are you worried about your score? One reason pros give for having a constant routine is that it helps remove themselves from distractions. Every time they approach a ball in practice, or in pressure situations, they try do do things identically. This means if they break routine, they back away and try again. If they aren’t ready yet, they stand back. Once all their decisions have been made, they go through this routine. The routine starts before they address the ball (often when they take aim). I’m at my worse when I believe I’m holding others up.

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I’ve been playing for 15 years. I’ve had a real bad year golf-wise. I moved to the South and gave up all my regular golf partners (they won’t commute, I’ve asked!) I know that this problem is completely mental. At this point, I don’t have the ability to tune out the distractions, although I’m working on that now. Chris.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How long have you been playing? I used to have the same experience for the first couple of years I played. Now after 4 years (mostly walk-on rounds with strangers), it seldom bothers me. In fact, now I much prefer playing with other folks, and the (infrequent) occasions where I have to go ’round by myself are a little boring (but better practice since you can hit a few extra shots). I suspect it’s mostly just getting comfortable with your game, losing that fear of hitting the shank/grounder/fat/whiff. Also, you discover that most players out there aren’t *that* good. There’s the occasional plus hcp, but even then they usually don’t care as long as you can advance the ball and maintain a decent pace. Rob I’m starting to get out more. My ball striking is getting much better, although I have unresolved issues with my driver. I don’t think it’s speaking to me. Right now the problem that I have is teeing it up with others. I can relax and play all day when I play alone, but put me with others and I choke like I have a rag full of gasoline down my throat. When I play alone, I just cruise along, hit a couple of extra balls, chips and such, and enjoy the golf experience. For some reason I can’t get comfortable when I golf with others. I’m sure that this is something that will pass also, it’s just a little disturbing. Chris S.

Response:

Chris, I recommend you pick up a copy of a book called Zen Golf by Joseph Parent. I reviewed this book a couple weeks ago on RSG, I’ve attached that review below. Terrific book, and I think it might well speak to what might be anxiety issues. BTW, the course I refer to in the review was Galena. They redid it, and by all accounts, much better now. Mike Review: Zen Golf: Mastering the Mental Game. By Joseph Parent. (c) 2002. Doubleday. Retails for about $25. I’ll start with the rating: 10 out of 10. Maybe an 11. :) In my opinion, it’s the only book I’ve ever read that approaches what Bob Rotella did with his "Golf is not a game of Perfect" book, and in some ways, exceeds what Rotella did. The two books–GINAGOP and Zen–are complementary, and in my view, one could benefit by reading both of them. What Parent does in Zen Golf is explain some techniques you might use to do the things Rotella says to do on the course (stay in the present, get rid of bad thoughts, forget the last shot, etc). Everybody knows what they’re supposed to do, but how to you learn it? Parent gives some ways to do that. The book starts out a little slow, and includes some exercises to sharpen the skills needed (the breathing exercise was, and is, difficult for me). As the book went on, I began to find things I could use on the course–and they work for me. I now know why the breathing exercise is important–it’s fully and completely applicable to the job at hand on the course. I now have a way of letting bad thoughts disappear; I have a way of relaxing on the tee and focusing only on the next shot. I can’t really explain it to you here. I’m not even fully sure why that’s the case. I’ve taken what he teaches in the book and I’ve found how to apply it in my circumstances. I think you’d need to do the same thing–read it, understand it, and then find the way it works for you. Rotella spends a lot of time extolling the virtues of the short game. And he’s absolutely right, of course. His approach, in part, is that a good short game takes the pressure off other elements of one’s game. And while he’s clear about staying in the present, etc. etc., for me, I always felt I was left with the task of figuring out how to to that. I’ve been successful doing that, but I knew I had a lot of room to grow. "Zen" fills that hole for me. Parent shows how to learn to let thoughts drift through one’s mind. In other words, suppose you start thinking about the score when you should be thinking about the next shot. He’s shown me how to get past that, to let those thoughts simply pass through and then disappear from view. Has it helped? You bet. I’ve had this book for a couple of months, and vowed I would not write about it on RSG until I’d finished it and could express an opinion, good or bad, about the techniques. I’ve been able to more easily draw myself away from destructive thinking, to get back to the task at hand. I played last weekend w/ 7 others from my club, 6 of whom have better hdcps than I do. We played a strange course (to me, anyway–hadn’t played it for years and it had been redone). It was cold. It was somewhat windy. But none of that got to me. I was able to bring myself back to every shot and be focused on it. I lost my focus perhaps 3 times. I didn’t always execute, but never did it upset me (well, once, and only briefly . Result? I shot a 79, the only one to break 80. Won some money, and a bit of respect. I have Zen Golf–and Rotella’s books–to thank for a lot of it. Zen Golf is absolutely a winner, in my opinion. I’ve read it once; I’m re-reading it now. It’s not a hard read, but in my view it’s also not a fast read–not if you really want to get the message. I already know that this is a book I’ll read and re-read, just like I’ve read and reread Rotella probably 8 or 9 times. There’s too much to absorb from just one time through. Mike — Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!

Response:

BTW, the course I refer to in the review was Galena. They redid it, and by all accounts, much better now.

Remember when we played that, and I 6 putted that one green? Please tell me that they have done some revision to that sucker! Thanks for the book idea. I’ll give it a whirl. Chris.

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Interesting question. I think that I’m going a different direction here, but I find that I am more comfortable and focused when I silence the competitive, aka insecure demon in my soul. If I start out affirming the other player(s); then, I often find myself with a better attitude about myself. If I start with the "I’m going to beat this guy" thought; then, I find myself tensing, getting irritable, etc. For this reason, I have tended to avoid any real competitive golf. Although, the other side is that I do get a bit of a charge out of beating my son or the best player in my regular four some on the rare occassion that I am at my best and he is a bit off. So, the emotions get a little complicated sometimes. Generally, my struggle is to get a positive focus which gets screwed up by that stupid competitive nonsense.

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I couldn’t agree more. Competitiveness is for losers.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Interesting question. I think that I’m going a different direction here, but I find that I am more comfortable and focused when I silence the competitive, aka insecure demon in my soul. If I start out affirming the other player(s); then, I often find myself with a better attitude about myself. If I start with the "I’m going to beat this guy" thought; then, I find myself tensing, getting irritable, etc. For this reason, I have tended to avoid any real competitive golf. Although, the other side is that I do get a bit of a charge out of beating my son or the best player in my regular four some on the rare occassion that I am at my best and he is a bit off. So, the emotions get a little complicated sometimes. Generally, my struggle is to get a positive focus which gets screwed up by that stupid competitive nonsense. I couldn’t agree more. Competitiveness is for losers.

ROFLMHO! ___, o | / . "Someone likes every shot" bk

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BTW, the course I refer to in the review was Galena. They redid it, and by all accounts, much better now. Remember when we played that, and I 6 putted that one green? Please tell me that they have done some revision to that sucker!

I think they’ve done some things to it. I should probably review the circumstances for those reading along. Chris’ 6-putt started as about a 12 foot putt to a hole where the ball wouldn’t stay if it missed. He’d putt up to the hole, and it would come right back to him. As I recall, one time it went around the hole and came back. As I recall, I conceded the 6th putt, as by that time it was just funny. Or sad. Greenskeeper from hell, that’s what it was. I think I two-putted that one, but i had a better angle and the ball stayed near when I missed. Mike Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!

Response:

How the media works (long)

admin — Wed, 03 Dec 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

[snip] SUMMARY The media will always spin to produce the story their own audience wants. Either that or they’ll be so far from the truth as to be dangerous.

Hate to knock the feet out from under your premise, but never confuse sports reporting with journalism. Even sports reporters will acknowledge the difference.

Response:

Hate to knock the feet out from under your premise, but never confuse sports reporting with journalism. Even sports reporters will acknowledge the difference.

A recent ONION had an article purporting to be a study of bias in sports reporting.

Response:

if the media stuck to only reporting about scores and general on field play it soon gets very boring. they like to look for stories that affect certain players, the tournament in question or the sport of golf in general. greg norman got roasted by the media several times (when he used to be a regular here) cos it was good for the media’s ratings.

Response:

The bottom line, is that we’re talking about golfers here, and no matter how the news hacks spin the article, it’s just going to end up in the bottom of a birdcage anyway. Fitting, I’d say.

Response:

Rich Beem and Steve Elkington are currently in Australia playing in the Australian Masters. As usual, the Australian media can’t help themselves from asking the old perennials about why US golfers don’t travel much. ("They travel worse than a bag of prawns in hot weather", I think Stuart Appleby said once.) ELKINGTON’S COMMENTS At his press conference, Steve Elkington made the usual statements every Australian golf afficionado wanted to hear … basically that the US Tour was now so large and monolithic it is killing other international tours by sheer weight of dollars. "Many international players based in the US were not bothering to play their home tours, preferring instead to compete for the big money on offer every week in the States", Elkington said. (Note: this is coming from an Australian golfer, playing in the USA, who has come home the *least* in the last decade!) Elkington also said he believed that "Tiger Woods had a responsibility to play more events outside the United States to promote the game around the globe". (Note: I thought on this matter Tiger Woods was a reasonably good guy. What about Mickelson, Love, Furyk et al?) BEEM’s RESPONSE So at Beem’s press conference, the media asked him for his response to Elkington’s comments. Beem, ever the nice guy, tried not to inflame or offend.

On swing advice on this NG

admin — Tue, 02 Dec 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

And when you can let go of your pro you’ll be able to swing the club on your

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My question is for Mike Daleki Mike, I have often felt the same way about not getting "tips" to help my swing from anyone other than a pro. My question, though, is about the thoughts and feelings that you have when passing the magazine rack with the Golf Digests reaching out to you or when you are in a doctor’s office or a car wash and there are two magazines, "Homes and Gardens" and Tiger Woods picture on a Golf Magazine. I’ll read the Golf Magazine. I won’t look at any swing mechanics articles, nor the tips and hints that have to do with the full swing. As far as the magazines reaching out to me from the racks, they really don’t. I figured out early in the game that I never benefitted from reading them. Never. Can’t remember a single thing I learned from reading golf magazines that had a positive influence on my game. Further, once I noted that the advice was sometimes contradictory, I knew that they were not a valuable resource for improvement for me. So it’s easy for me to forswear them. Besides, there are so many other interesting golf books to read, on course management, mental game, short game, physical conditioning–I can give up the swing stuff and never know it’s gone. Why do you think it is that you are so drawn to the articles? Well, I don’t think I really am. The only articles that really attract me are those that deal with some aspect of the mental game. The rest, for better or worse, don’t hold much attraction for me. Why is it so difficult to give the theory a break, even for a couple of weeks? I don’t understand. I don’t have any problem reading theory–I generally don’t want to do it. I’ll poke my head in from time to time depending on who is commenting–Brad Greer and David Laville are two whose posts are not corrosive to my swing–but generally I stay away. I suppose, if I weaken at all, it’s just because I’m naturally curious about almost everything. But experience tells me, I had better have one source for swing input, and one only. There have been times that I thought I could try everything, every school of thought, every body part tip, every picture, every clich

Driver Fitting

admin — Tue, 02 Dec 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I paid $100 in Sanford NC, so you;re in the ballpark. I hit around 40 balls with 6 or 8 driver/shaft combinations and another 100 balls with a dozen or so iron/shaft combinations, including my own clubs and theirs. The result? Well, the data suggested for a mere $1000 (cost of 10 Nippon steel shafts and 2 Fujikura graphites) I could optimize the launch conditions for my swing… at that point I *truly* realized how much I had been neglecting the "short-game" as a means to improve… Actually the launch data was superior for those high-end shafts, but almost as good was the data for Dynamic Gold S300s (much cheaper) and some other graphite shaft I cannot recall offhand. – Would it be just as good to just hit the retail shop and have someone watch the swing and use a little impact tape to find the right driver or is launch monitoring the only real way to get things right?

IMO the launch monitoring is excellent if you have a consistent swing and have already achieved proficiency in ball striking. It might not make any great conclusions for someone who is still working on building a fundamentally sound swing. Lumpy.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last year I got some irons fitted and noticed a huge difference in my game this past year. This winter, I’d like to get a new driver fitted. Right now I play a club right off the rack that might not be right for me in all respects. I understand the iron fitting process but would like some advice on getting fitted for a driver. – I hear people talk about launch analysis and I found a place nearby that will do it for a cost of $125. Seems like a lot of cash. Is this typical cost? Is it usually recommended that I do this with my current driver or do they have different gear there to try to find the right setup? – Would it be just as good to just hit the retail shop and have someone watch the swing and use a little impact tape to find the right driver or is launch monitoring the only real way to get things right? – I see that Ping offers custom fitting service for length, loft, lie, shaft flex, kick point, grip, etc. Do any other manufacturers offer this or is it just mainly loft and shaft? Any other recommendations for finding the right fitting driver?

$125 seems a bit steep to me unless that amount is credited against purchase of a club or clubs. My experience is that the launch monitor approach is very helpful but that it is important to do it outdoors where you can confirm what the monitor says about spin rate and velocity by seeing the actual ball flight. You should certainly start out with your existing driver but I would expect them to have many (!!) clubs for you to try since you’ve looking for the optimal combination of club length, loft, weight, and shaft flex characteristics for your swing. Titleist has an outdoor launch monitor fitting program that they run (dozens of shaft/loft combinations for 983K and E) and a number of the big-time golf schools have driver and iron fitting as part of their operations. Mine was done by the guys down at the Rick Smith School at Tiburon. They seemed to really know what they were doing and ending up building me a set of custom irons and making some modifications to my existing driver. I ended up with great (!) clubs; and, when I miss a shot, I know it’s ME! Jeff

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Last year I got some irons fitted and noticed a huge difference in my game this past year. This winter, I’d like to get a new driver fitted. Right now I play a club right off the rack that might not be right for me in all respects. I understand the iron fitting process but would like some advice on getting fitted for a driver. – I hear people talk about launch analysis and I found a place nearby that will do it for a cost of $125. Seems like a lot of cash. Is this typical cost? Is it usually recommended that I do this with my current driver or do they have different gear there to try to find the right setup? $125 seems a bit steep to me unless that amount is credited against purchase of a club or clubs. My experience is that the launch monitor approach is very helpful but that it is important to do it outdoors where you can confirm what the monitor says about spin rate and velocity by seeing the actual ball flight.

One that I looked at was about $45 with a $20 portion refunded when purchasing a driver of $300 or more. I haven’t done it yet…but I am considering. http://www.tacomafirsgolf.com/GolfAchiever.html — Washington State University "That shot is impossible!…Jack Nicholson himself couldn’t make it!"– Homer Simpson

Response:

Last year I got some irons fitted and noticed a huge difference in my game this past year. This winter, I’d like to get a new driver fitted. Right now I play a club right off the rack that might not be right for me in all respects. I understand the iron fitting process but would like some advice on getting fitted for a driver. – I hear people talk about launch analysis and I found a place nearby that will do it for a cost of $125. Seems like a lot of cash. Is this typical cost? Is it usually recommended that I do this with my current driver or do they have different gear there to try to find the right setup? – Would it be just as good to just hit the retail shop and have someone watch the swing and use a little impact tape to find the right driver or is launch monitoring the only real way to get things right? – I see that Ping offers custom fitting service for length, loft, lie, shaft flex, kick point, grip, etc. Do any other manufacturers offer this or is it just mainly loft and shaft? Any other recommendations for finding the right fitting driver?

Response:

Integra Sooolong 450R w/ Patent – ridiculous distance

admin — Mon, 01 Dec 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Ok, I was wondering if anyone ever used the fireball from fireball golf company. This is an illegal ball (slightly smaller/heavier) that I thought would go nice with my new illegal club. Believe it or not this thing went over 400 yds several times last round. I even had to hit a knock down 280 yarder to keep it in front of a hazard I’m not using it anymore because it has made the game a joke (i do have a line, ya know). Just wanted to see if anyone ever used the fireball pro, which is a conforming ball. They sell for much cheaper than a top-of-the-line ball and was wondering if it compared.

Response:

I’m not using it anymore because it has made the game a joke (i do have a line, ya know).

How do you determine where this line is?

Response:

I’m not using it anymore because it has made the game a joke (i do have a line, ya know). How do you determine where this line is?

I guess it would have to be at the ball in this case. I play with a group of guys every week and clubs in their bag consist of chippers, driving irons, etc. We all fix our lies in the fairway, take a mulligan per nine, and mangage to shoot in the 90’s. I explained that my driver exceeds USGA COR and all other lofts of the club are legal. Like I said, I only got it because I am a high ball hitter, not ’cause it’s illegal. I guess it depends on the type of golf you play. I am lucky enough to look forward every week to playing with the same guys, for a little money even, and no one’s feelings get hurt with questionable equipment. It was my choice to quit playing the fireball, it was just too illegal. I’m just trying to see if anyone’s played the fireball pro, I’m curious about its quality…

Response:

I’m not using it anymore because it has made the game a joke (i do have a line, ya know). How do you determine where this line is?

So. Let’s begin with the pro’s. They hit sand wedges into the par 4’s. How many of us do that even from the senior tees? 7400 yds. from the back tees are a bit much. As well as 6500 yds from the middle tees for guys that can’t break 90. Wouldn’t you love to be hitting onto the green in regulation most of the time? When I play a course I look at the cr/slope as well as the total yardage of the course from each tee box. It might be "fun" playing from the back tees, but not practicle for most.

Response:

RE: illegal clubs. How do you determine where this line is? So. Let’s begin with the pro’s. They hit sand wedges into the par 4’s. How many of us do that even from the senior tees?

I don’t know. I did hit a pw into the hole from a sand trap on a par-4 after hitting the ball up to the senior tees in the native and taking a drop before hitting it into the bunker. The best par I ever had. 7400 yds. from the back tees are a bit much. As well as 6500 yds from the middle tees for guys that can’t break 90.

So when duffers play from the back tees we should use illegal clubs? My problem isn’t distance, it is accuracy. Wouldn’t you love to be hitting onto the green in regulation most of the time?

Yes. I love playing golf. If playing with illegal equipment made me hit it onto the green, I would still like golf. But I don’t think I would like it more than I do now. When I play a course I look at the cr/slope as well as the total yardage of the course from each tee box. It might be "fun" playing from the back tees, but not practicle for most.

What’s practical about golf? I don’t play golf to be practical, I play golf to have fun. Why is playing with illegal equipment, or playing from the senior tees more practical than playing with legal equipment or playing with my buddies? (I don’t play from tees that cause me to slow down others – or where I can’t put the ball in play most of the time).

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hello Group, Just purchased an Integra Sooolong 450R w/ patent. I got the 7.5 degree, which is non-conforming. I play with buddies just for fun, so it is not an issue. I am a high ball hitter so this just made sense to me. All the other lofts are conforming, so I don’t know why this is not. Anyway, I just killed with this club, hitting over 325 on average with mishits going about 280. The forgiveness on this club is astounding, missed only two fairways. And, this is NOT a clanger. It has the sweetest ping sound and rockets off the clubface like it was shot out of a howitzer. I swing as hard as I can, don’t know how fast exactly, but hard for sure. I have an Isopro Xstiff shaft and this really allows the head to keep up. I can’t imagine any other club having better technology as far as distance and control, but am willing to listen, with tongue in cheek, to anyone with a better club than this. I previously used a Liquid Metal driver and very rarely reached 300 yds. My best drive with this club is 360 yds. I could have gotten a longer shaft, but I think I generate enough speed without sacrificing control with the 45.5". I’m in awe right now. I researched for a long driver that wouldn’t set me back and skeptically went with this from Taylor Golf Supply on a paypal special for $65! You’d have to shoot me to have me give this club up. I’m trying to tell everyone I can about this, two of the three guys in my foursome are buying one this week. Hey I only shoot in the 90’s, my enjoyment comes from watching the ball travel distances never seen before, I’d be happy to answer any questions…

Give one of those to Sparky, he’d probably shoot out of state.

Response:

No, Sparky definitely does not need that club. We would have to notify NORAD every time he teed it up.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Group, Just purchased an Integra Sooolong 450R w/ patent. I got the 7.5 degree, which is non-conforming. I play with buddies just for fun, so it is not an issue. I am a high ball hitter so this just made sense to me. All the other lofts are conforming, so I don’t know why this is not. Anyway, I just killed with this club, hitting over 325 on average with mishits going about 280. The forgiveness on this club is astounding, missed only two fairways. And, this is NOT a clanger. It has the sweetest ping sound and rockets off the clubface like it was shot out of a howitzer. I swing as hard as I can, don’t know how fast exactly, but hard for sure. I have an Isopro Xstiff shaft and this really allows the head to keep up. I can’t imagine any other club having better technology as far as distance and control, but am willing to listen, with tongue in cheek, to anyone with a better club than this. I previously used a Liquid Metal driver and very rarely reached 300 yds. My best drive with this club is 360 yds. I could have gotten a longer shaft, but I think I generate enough speed without sacrificing control with the 45.5". I’m in awe right now. I researched for a long driver that wouldn’t set me back and skeptically went with this from Taylor Golf Supply on a paypal special for $65! You’d have to shoot me to have me give this club up. I’m trying to tell everyone I can about this, two of the three guys in my foursome are buying one this week. Hey I only shoot in the 90’s, my enjoyment comes from watching the ball travel distances never seen before, I’d be happy to answer any questions… Give one of those to Sparky, he’d probably shoot out of state.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Actually, I can relate to this a bit. I shoot in the 90’s and am relatively long off the tee (260yds – 285yds, with an occasional 300+yds). My problem is within scoring distance (150yds). Played Friday and had some great drives but my approach shots and putting wasn’t the best. Take the 9th hole. 315 yard Par 4, dogleg left. To cut the corner you have to clear some nice size trees or draw it a bunch. I ended up in a grass bunker 5 yards from the green. Easy birdie, you say? Automatic par, you say? How about a bogie! Lob wedge, 10ft from the cup. First putt, burned the edge 2ft past. Second putt, on the lip. You put enough of those types of holes together (sprinkle in a few dubs and trips) and it makes for a 90’s round. And thus the next few week’s practice is devoted to <150yd shots and putting.

Thank you for explaining how I shoot 90. Countless chipping duffs and major putting block. I make about 50% of my 3 footers, sad. I don’t have any time to practice so I can’t be upset about sucking. I accept it and enjoy the game nevertheless. I hit bombs off the tee and am always around the green on my second, so atleast I don’t hold anyone up searching for my ball in the trees.

Response:

Hey I only shoot in the 90’s, my enjoyment comes from watching the ball travel distances never seen before, I’d be happy to answer any questions… You must really really suck if you shoot in the 90’s while driving more or less like Tiger (325 *average* missing 2 fairways). – Pse

Actually, I can relate to this a bit. I shoot in the 90’s and am relatively long off the tee (260yds – 285yds, with an occasional 300+yds). My problem is within scoring distance (150yds). Played Friday and had some great drives but my approach shots and putting wasn’t the best. Take the 9th hole. 315 yard Par 4, dogleg left. To cut the corner you have to clear some nice size trees or draw it a bunch. I ended up in a grass bunker 5 yards from the green. Easy birdie, you say? Automatic par, you say? How about a bogie! Lob wedge, 10ft from the cup. First putt, burned the edge 2ft past. Second putt, on the lip. You put enough of those types of holes together (sprinkle in a few dubs and trips) and it makes for a 90’s round. And thus the next few week’s practice is devoted to <150yd shots and putting.

Response:

Hey I only shoot in the 90’s, my enjoyment comes from watching the ball travel distances never seen before, I’d be happy to answer any questions…

You must really really suck if you shoot in the 90’s while driving more or less like Tiger (325 *average* missing 2 fairways). – Pse

Response:

Hello Group, Just purchased an Integra Sooolong 450R w/ patent. I got the 7.5 degree, which is non-conforming. I play with buddies just for fun, so it is not an issue. I am a high ball hitter so this just made sense to me. All the other lofts are conforming, so I don’t know why this is not. Anyway, I just killed with this club, hitting over 325 on average with mishits going about 280. The forgiveness on this club is astounding, missed only two fairways. And, this is NOT a clanger. It has the sweetest ping sound and rockets off the clubface like it was shot out of a howitzer. I swing as hard as I can, don’t know how fast exactly, but hard for sure. I have an Isopro Xstiff shaft and this really allows the head to keep up. I can’t imagine any other club having better technology as far as distance and control, but am willing to listen, with tongue in cheek, to anyone with a better club than this. I previously used a Liquid Metal driver and very rarely reached 300 yds. My best drive with this club is 360 yds. I could have gotten a longer shaft, but I think I generate enough speed without sacrificing control with the 45.5". I’m in awe right now. I researched for a long driver that wouldn’t set me back and skeptically went with this from Taylor Golf Supply on a paypal special for $65! You’d have to shoot me to have me give this club up. I’m trying to tell everyone I can about this, two of the three guys in my foursome are buying one this week. Hey I only shoot in the 90’s, my enjoyment comes from watching the ball travel distances never seen before, I’d be happy to answer any questions…

Response:

A Swing Mechanics Thread for Those Who Want to Improve

admin — Sun, 23 Nov 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

OK, got your attention, didn’t I?

Excellent post, Mike. — David Sneddon Hi-Tech Turf Synthetic Turf Applications Tel: 519-259-2092

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [...] Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads? Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way? First, I thought your post was an excellent thread topic, Mike, and a very thoughtful post. Second, I thought jmkanes’ post was one of the weirder responses I’ve ever read in RSG. Talk about tangential! I can only speak for myself, of course, but I don’t know enough about the golf swing to participate in swing mechanics threads. In fact, I feel completely intimidated by those who do, David Laville, for example. He seems _very_ knowledgeable…and will cut my nuts off if I spew garbage. I’ll pass. In my 42 years of golf, I’ve always played well enough–until the last few years, always a 3 or less and scratch or better for a lot of that time. I’ve played well because I’ve focused on always getting down to fundamentals and, for the most part, have stayed away from "band aids". From the very start, for some reason, I was never very interested in a tip that might take me from a 9 handicap to a 7, for example; I seemed to approach golf from the "how do the very best players in the world do it?" point of view. As I recall, my mental approach was always to build my swing for the very highest level and then accept where I ended up, sort of the reverse of starting poorly and creeping toward improvement, I think. Maybe that’s in my make-up. As a former (and evaporating rapidly!) low handicapper, I can’t offer any swing advice at all except, perhaps, some very basic advice. I do suggest, however, that you shoot for the moon and build your swing from the ground up and for the highest level you can imagine. If you are a 14 handicap trying to become a 10, I think you’ll probably become a 13. Instead, stick with the fundamentals which are taught by a qualified instructor and which can be readily observed in top players if you have that type of an eye. Mike’s observation about improving by playing with better players is right on the money, IMO. Play with the best players you can find and compete in stroke play (I don’t mean scrambles, etc.) tournaments. Play many courses with varying conditions, not just your own over and over. You don’t want to become a "homer". Never lose sight of the "quality of the strike" by becoming focused solely on scoring. Have very high expectations, high enough that you will still be pleased with results that will inevitably be somewhat less than you aimed for. Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at benewman dot bizland dot com * http://go.to/bruce_newman

I knew I’d leave out a few–you were obviously one of them, Bruce. Thanks for a terrific view of this from one of those "low" handicappers. Mike — Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!

Response:

I only listen to my pro, and it took me awhile to find the right one. She’s great for me. She sees things I had no clue I was doing (and many times, they are things I know I should not do – and thought I wasn’t) and she explains things to me in a way that I can immediately grasp the significance,

That sounds just like me with my "pro". Could be we have the same one. Is it Suzy, over at the Oriental Massage parlor? I find her "hands on" instruction to be especially beneficial, although the videotape sessions are pretty good too… seamus (on me)

Response:

I have a 6 handicap. Is that low enough to offer swing mechanics adivice?

No, not unless specifically asked by someone that knows you….and for their personal swing. I know a 2 handicap player that can’t tell you anything about the swing. ___, o | / . "Someone likes every shot" bk

Response:

[...] Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads? Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way?

First, I thought your post was an excellent thread topic, Mike, and a very thoughtful post. Second, I thought jmkanes’ post was one of the weirder responses I’ve ever read in RSG. Talk about tangential! I can only speak for myself, of course, but I don’t know enough about the golf swing to participate in swing mechanics threads. In fact, I feel completely intimidated by those who do, David Laville, for example. He seems _very_ knowledgeable…and will cut my nuts off if I spew garbage. I’ll pass. In my 42 years of golf, I’ve always played well enough–until the last few years, always a 3 or less and scratch or better for a lot of that time. I’ve played well because I’ve focused on always getting down to fundamentals and, for the most part, have stayed away from "band aids". From the very start, for some reason, I was never very interested in a tip that might take me from a 9 handicap to a 7, for example; I seemed to approach golf from the "how do the very best players in the world do it?" point of view. As I recall, my mental approach was always to build my swing for the very highest level and then accept where I ended up, sort of the reverse of starting poorly and creeping toward improvement, I think. Maybe that’s in my make-up. As a former (and evaporating rapidly!) low handicapper, I can’t offer any swing advice at all except, perhaps, some very basic advice. I do suggest, however, that you shoot for the moon and build your swing from the ground up and for the highest level you can imagine. If you are a 14 handicap trying to become a 10, I think you’ll probably become a 13. Instead, stick with the fundamentals which are taught by a qualified instructor and which can be readily observed in top players if you have that type of an eye. Mike’s observation about improving by playing with better players is right on the money, IMO. Play with the best players you can find and compete in stroke play (I don’t mean scrambles, etc.) tournaments. Play many courses with varying conditions, not just your own over and over. You don’t want to become a "homer". Never lose sight of the "quality of the strike" by becoming focused solely on scoring. Have very high expectations, high enough that you will still be pleased with results that will inevitably be somewhat less than you aimed for. Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at benewman dot bizland dot com * http://go.to/bruce_newman

Response:

"Virtually" is the linguistic equivalent of crossing your fingers behind your keyboard.

It can also be used as a synonym for rarely.

Response:

I have a 6 handicap. Is that low enough to offer swing mechanics adivice?

No. Apparently, it’s too low to offer swing mechanics advice. –Blair "I’m working on it."

Response:

I think using this newsgroup to flog your products is tacky. Doing it under the guise of helping people find their way in the game is double tacky, bordering on sleazy. That was my basic problem with your squelch and your subsequent offering. In fact it was my *only* problem. I don’t care if you think reading the Koran and eating pinecones is part of the "one true way".

Here we have it folks, a plethora of pompous and preposterous posts from the bungling buffoon of bumcombe. You, jmkanes, have all of the intellect and half the wit of a compost pile. This is a honourable game, where you call penalties on yourself.

Then why do you play it? You display a remarkable lack of honor, perhaps you like the penalty-calling aspect? I think that should apply to this newsgroup too.

Damn right. Show some integrity and do it by eliminating the pointer to your business

in your sig. Show some compassion and plonk yourself. Consider it a present to RSG; there are only 31 more shopping days ’til Christmas, so unsubscribe now and beat the crowds! Relying on the charter’s exemption is something only a lawyer would try to do – a golf business shouldn’t be advertised in a golf newsgroup, even in the signature area.

Nice of you to come to this group and tell everyone how to run it. The charter is more representative of RSG than you are. My basic posture in the future will be to dump on *you* for spamming

Since you are an idiot, we could hardly expect anything less. every time I see *anyone* getting dumped on for spamming because you are a "sneaky spammer", the worst kind. Other than that, I don’t intend to discuss this issue with you or anyone else anymore.

That’s damned decent of you since you post dozens of lines about the stuff you claim is completely uninteresting. One could hardly imagine the volume of tripe you could produce if you were mildly interested in a subject.

Response:

that tip. David Laville (terrific ballstriker) contributes, but his commentary is almost always about the very technical side of swing mechanics, and more also along the line of explaining what’s wrong.

And then defending to the death his right to be wrong about what’s wrong, despite his deficient understanding of physics. My opinion is this: If you think you’re going to figure out how to swing from reading RSG, I predict you’re going to be disappointed, as I was.

I thought after I’d had a few lessons in the basics I was going to figure out how to swing like a pro from reading Golf, Golf Illustrated, Golf Digest, and 12-15 books. But the single biggest hint came from Dean Reinmuth on TV teaching a Junior Champion how to hit the cut-slice that was the only shot I *could* hit until I saw him explain what causes it. My point is, it’s not just RSG. There’s a million hints and drills and keys out there, and it’s a crapshoot whether you’re going to find the one that unclenches your grip. But it hasn’t helped my swing much, with one exception: The advice to see a pro.

Pros vary, too. (It’s that thought that keeps people coming here for the $free variations…) I’ve tried tons of things over the years, advice, gadgets, and swing thoughts. Sometimes they’d help, temporarily. Only after a while did I realize they were mostly compensations for a bad swing, compensations that had built on top of compensations.

You sound like you’re introducing a book on how to swing a golf club. The next paragraph should say something like, "now you too can learn the secret to a perfect golf swing." The only thing that has lasted is the advice I got on the AJ Bonar tapes (advice that came from the tapes, BTW, not from RSG per se), but at least I heard about them here. And as far as that goes, the AJ advice likely is applicable to the swing flaws I have, not necessarily something that people can universally benefit from.

Reinmuth: See, what you do is, you open your stance a little… Blair: Not my problem. Reinmuth: …you stand almost uncomfortably close to the ball… Blair: I wasn’t doing that. Reinmuth: …and you tighten the grip of the last two fingers of your top hand. See, sometimes the clue isn’t because someone thought to tell you the right thing, it’s because they thought to say something else. Not often (once every 13 years, so far), but sometimes. I only want to hear one message, and that’s the message from my pro.

He doesn’t sell cold cream by any chance? Nah. to drop to a low of 7.3 this year. Last Saturday I won our nooners group with a 74, took home a chunk of change as a result. This is something I could only have dreamed of two years ago. And a big reason is that I stopped reading the swing mechanics threads on RSG.

And started practicing more regularly, no doubt. anyway). I fully have the power to ignore what they say, if I don’t want to read it. Come to think of it, I already do this. I virtually ignore the swing mechanics threads.

"Virtually" is the linguistic equivalent of crossing your fingers behind your keyboard. Others might think I’m trying to take their fun away from them (whereas I made it clear above, more power to them). Still others might argue I’m putting down high handicappers, which I am not. Heck, I used to be one! But one thing I keep coming back to: I wish I knew then what I know now.

I wish I knew in 9 years what I’ll know in 12. (This is a fun game.) Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads?

Who? Tiger, Vijay, Weirsy, and Ernie? I suspect because they’re busy decorating their 19Ksf houses and picking out the weekend’s poon-tang. Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way?

Could it be because they’ve been through it before? To them your swing flaw is a FAQ and the volume on the group is high enough they’d rather just go on to the clubmaking threads? Or maybe they’re just lucky to "get it" and don’t really know what their mechanics are, or what it feels like to do the wrong thing, or to do the right thing in the wrong way… –Blair "Tell us why Tiger Woods needs constant coaching in something he perfected at age 12, again?"

Response:

My basic posture in the future will be to dump on *you* for spamming every time I see *anyone* getting dumped on for spamming because you are a "sneaky spammer", the worst kind.

And you’re a clueless loon who just doesn’t get it. Other than that, I don’t intend to discuss this issue with you or anyone else anymore.

Sounds good to me. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, flogging your products is *tacky*. You know better and are trying to avoid the issue, by changing the subject to "Mike’s Secrets to Improvement". Blast away, as long you you shut up about Clangomatic or any other stuff you sell. This is a honourable game, where you call penalties on yourself. I think that should apply to this newsgroup too. Show some integrity and do it by eliminating the pointer to your business in your sig. Relying on the charter’s exemption is something only a lawyer would try to do – a golf business shouldn’t be advertised in a golf newsgroup, even in the signature area. My basic posture in the future will be to dump on *you* for spamming every time I see *anyone* getting dumped on for spamming because you are a "sneaky spammer", the worst kind. Other than that, I don’t intend to discuss this issue with you or anyone else anymore. Other things to do, ya know? Yeah, so you expect to say your bit without being challenged on it? What exactly is wrong, if you are a contributor of "substance" here, or indeed anyone at all, with having a sig line showing your credentials, your background and/or your business? If there’s nothing wrong with it, that leaves the body of the message as the point of issue. Your issue about "sneaky" spammers being the worst kind is to some extent true. But my version of "sneaky" is the ones who use the main body of the message to mention their products while *appearing* to say something meaningful. I never had a problem with George Hibbard, for instance, using a sig line. My gripe with him was always the constant reference to "my video" or "my book" in the answers he gave. But please tell me where Mike has ever mentioned "my clubs" or "my products". To extend the definition of "sneaky" to a sig line is bullshit, just crafted to make your argument look valid. Nowhere in any post that I can remember has Mike ever said "buy my clubs" or "get this driver from me". In fact, once someone asked for a clubmaker in Wisconsin, and Mike replied, sans sig, giving some other sources. I appreciate Mike’s posts, as he is one of the few really qualified people here on clubmaking, since guys like Dave Tutelman went away. IMHO, you are making an issue of this just for the sake of making an issue. You are also contributing noise, trying to drive away people who have something good and useful to say, and imho just big-noting yourself. For the record I stated I didn’t have a problem with Nicolas’s mention of his site. I did make a point that so far that’s the only type of contribution he’s ever made here … that is to post to make everyone aware of it. I can’t remember any other post he’s made about a golfing topic generally. If you follow through your threat to stalk Mike everytime he legitimately mentions spammers, I’ll just plonk you as fast as possible. Cyber stalking, whether it’s by some nutcase on Ken Pitts, or you on Mike, is totally unethical. You should think twice before you engage in it.

Couldn’t agree more, Colin. And you have identified the factors exactly which led me to plonk jmkanes a long time ago. AFAIC, there is nobody on this board more honorable than Mike Dalecki, who is also the soul of generosity, to boot. When I began to get the Dark Side infection, he was available to me way beyond reasonableness…I plagued him with questions, and he was very happy to 1)welcome me to the trade, and 2)supply me with incredible amounts of valuable information and encouragement. In addition, as may have already been mentioned, he made up several clubs with differing shaft orientations, and sent them around to folks to try out in the name of testing some theories about spining and FLO’ing, gratis. It was not to flog his own business…but to encourage people to look for themselves at this aspect of clubmaking. In fact, he has done more to support people going into the craft than anyone else on rsg…helping to develop competition! These are not the actions of a selfish or self-concerned businessman. They are the actions of a worthy citizen of this community. jmkanes is way way way off base in his charges and insults. As you’ve pointed out, his only contribution to rsg is noise. He stays on my shitlist. Peter

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – great observations snipped Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads? Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way? Mike, I could not agree more. I quit reading any article that promised to "fix" any part of my game (slice, fade, hook, etc.) and gave up reading the mags. I do not read the swing mechanics threads except to scan them quickly to see what is really being talked about. Perhaps the reason we high-handicappers participate more is because we have faults in our swings that are more easily mended by online advice, whereas the better golfers need much finer adjustments than can be had without actual observation? It’s a lot easier to suggest a fix for someone whose problem is hitting the ball onto the adjacent fairway than for someone who’s driving onto the green and "just" wants to get closer to the hole. Eliyahu I don’t doubt that high handicappers participate more because they need more help, but the question that I find interesting is why you don’t receive very many answers from the lowest handicappers? Why aren’t they helping? Could it be that they know they can’t, and the best way to deal with this is to see a pro?

That’s possible. It also might be that the problems afflicting hi-hcp golfers are usually the same ones, over and over, and they’re tired of giving the same answers. Eliyahu

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, flogging your products is *tacky*. You know better and are trying to avoid the issue, by changing the subject to "Mike’s Secrets to Improvement". Blast away, as long you you shut up about Clangomatic or any other stuff you sell. This is a honourable game, where you call penalties on yourself. I think that should apply to this newsgroup too. Show some integrity and do it by eliminating the pointer to your business in your sig. Relying on the charter’s exemption is something only a lawyer would try to do – a golf business shouldn’t be advertised in a golf newsgroup, even in the signature area. My basic posture in the future will be to dump on *you* for spamming every time I see *anyone* getting dumped on for spamming because you are a "sneaky spammer", the worst kind. Other than that, I don’t intend to discuss this issue with you or anyone else anymore. Other things to do, ya know?

Yeah, so you expect to say your bit without being challenged on it? What exactly is wrong, if you are a contributor of "substance" here, or indeed anyone at all, with having a sig line showing your credentials, your background and/or your business? If there’s nothing wrong with it, that leaves the body of the message as the point of issue. Your issue about "sneaky" spammers being the worst kind is to some extent true. But my version of "sneaky" is the ones who use the main body of the message to mention their products while *appearing* to say something meaningful. I never had a problem with George Hibbard, for instance, using a sig line. My gripe with him was always the constant reference to "my video" or "my book" in the answers he gave. But please tell me where Mike has ever mentioned "my clubs" or "my products". To extend the definition of "sneaky" to a sig line is bullshit, just crafted to make your argument look valid. Nowhere in any post that I can remember has Mike ever said "buy my clubs" or "get this driver from me". In fact, once someone asked for a clubmaker in Wisconsin, and Mike replied, sans sig, giving some other sources. I appreciate Mike’s posts, as he is one of the few really qualified people here on clubmaking, since guys like Dave Tutelman went away. IMHO, you are making an issue of this just for the sake of making an issue. You are also contributing noise, trying to drive away people who have something good and useful to say, and imho just big-noting yourself. For the record I stated I didn’t have a problem with Nicolas’s mention of his site. I did make a point that so far that’s the only type of contribution he’s ever made here … that is to post to make everyone aware of it. I can’t remember any other post he’s made about a golfing topic generally. If you follow through your threat to stalk Mike everytime he legitimately mentions spammers, I’ll just plonk you as fast as possible. Cyber stalking, whether it’s by some nutcase on Ken Pitts, or you on Mike, is totally unethical. You should think twice before you engage in it. BTW, I am happy to display a sig. It just shows my affiliations, so that people can find out who I am, and the club I belong to … if they want to. I doubt many people would care. — Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com

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Geez Mike, that’s a lot of words to say "swing tips suck, go see a pro" 8^). I think in general that’s pretty good advice, but I have a couple of thoughts on what you wrote … – could be that most good golfers don’t want to talk mechanics simply because they like their swing and don’t want to mess with it. A fear of thinking too much, and a disinterest in talking about it because they know most of it (or at least have a swing they like). – I suspect a good pro is the best/quickest way to learn the golf swing, but I really don’t know since I haven’t found one I like/trust. Can’t say that I’ve tried really hard, but have had a few lessons from 3 different instructors over the 4 years I’ve been playing, and never really liked any of them enough to keep going. – I have read a lot of books and think that’s been the biggest help to becoming at least a decent golfer (13 hcp after 4 years). I think this just happens to be something that works pretty well for me … may not be for everyone. My favorites are those that teach swing awareness and the feeling of a "swing". John Jacobs, who teaches reading the ball flight to correct problems, and Jim Flick, who preaches "swing" and "feel", and others. – "swing tips" can be dangerous … they may or may not be relevant to your personal swing, and there’s a real danger in always chasing the latest tip and not staying with something long enough to ingrain a feel and make a real improvement. I’ve recently tried not think or work too much on "swing tips", and stick to a few basics .. I think it’s helped. Anything you read on RSG should be taken with a grain of salt, but that’s really not much different than anything you read about golf anyway. BTW, can you help me with my slice? 8^). Rob

Response:

snip post….. The better players I know don’t think about their swing. The better players around here shoot in the 60’s BTW. One guy I know who is one of the better golfers in this area couldn’t break 80 for many years, but he kept plugging away, trying everything he could, and now he can break 70 on your basic 6200-6400 yard recreational layout if he prepares at all; we are, of course, talking about people who shoot these scores on a lot of different courses, not just one. Anyhoo, this now good player doesn’t fool with his swing for obvious reasons. Last year, and the year before, I was to the point of shooting less than 80 about 1/2 the time, and was into the high single digit range, but chose to make swing improvements that I hope will get me to be able to shoot less than 70. Another thing that bothered me was that I couldn’t do better than mid 80’s on courses other than my regular course, and the good players can shoot their scores on any course. Swing changes take time to work in and have a cost in scoring. I have broken par for 9 holes 5 times this year, but had some really bad rounds as well. My bad rounds are caused by bad short game though. The thing I needed this year was more distance off the driver. I need to get the driver out 240+, closer to 260 if I can to give myself a chance on the 400+ par 4’s. 180 to the green 5 or 6 times a round on the 400+ par 4’s, plus the 2 or 3 180 or so par 3’s can leave me with 180 yard or so shots to the green 1/2 the time, and that just ain’t going to cut it if I want to break par. So I wanted to add length. RSG’s Sparky has posted about keeping loose, and some wrist excercises as well as yoga style loosening up that have helped me a lot. David Laville has posted a lot about lag, which has helped me as well. The LAWS of golf concepts, also posted here, have helped me a lot. With the W swing and a loose but athletic swing I don’t have to take as much of a backswing to get a good shot that is much longer than what I had been doing. I still face the old issues of weight transfer (stuck on right side and chili dip short shots and hit the ground behind the ball on long shots) and not accelerating the hands through the ball for a weak hook. However, I am hitting the ball a lot better. Scoring suffers from too many reversions. A long backswing here, stiff arms/wrists there and no wrist cock every once in a while kill my scoring and overall I don’t have the feel I need to hit greens. Scoring also suffers hugely from lack of work on the short game while I work so hard on the long game. But the last few rounds my fairways hit are back over 75% with drives over 250 almost all the time. Working on my putting and chipping has helped a lot there, and put a few bucks in my pocket (won on sat and sun this week). A real nice change is that I am hitting my long irons well now, and can banish the much wilder fairway woods to the garage. I really have a good feeling about my swing when I get the bugs out, and they seem to be almost out. All in all though, as I work on my game, stuff from RSG has helped me a lot. When I get to the point of being able to break 70 reasonably often, I’m not going to think too much about swing advice, but as for now, anything anyone has that might help, I might listen. I know enough from the golf I have played to know what doesn’t work for me, although some things might work for others. If I never get to the point of breaking 70 fairly often, I will always work on my game. In these parts, you want to play with the big boys, you need to be able to break 70. The grade B/C guys shoot in the 70’s. I’m currently a D type shooting in the low to mid 80’s.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :OK, got your attention, didn’t I? : :I’ve been accused on RSG, by someone with apparently less wisdom than :ability to bang out thoughts thoughtlessly, that I "tried to put the :squelch on discussions of golf mechanics, especially his crack about :good golfers on the group not posting to those discussions." I think you were giving the message that "good golfers" don’t post therefore if you post (on golf mechanics) you must be a hacker. That seems to me to be an fairly sophisticated effort to squelch discussion. Nobody wants to be labeled a "hacker" by implication. Better to listen to you discuss (undistracted by the lively swing mechanics threads) the *real* factors behind success on the course. Rotella (agree), lessons from a golf pro (agree) or the wondrous "Clang-o-matic" (oops, you sell those don’t you?). I think using this newsgroup to flog your products is tacky. Doing it under the guise of helping people find their way in the game is double tacky, bordering on sleazy. That was my basic problem with your squelch and your subsequent offering. In fact it was my *only* problem. I don’t care if you think reading the Koran and eating pinecones is part of the "one true way". So you’ve shot a few rounds in the 70’s. That’s great, congratulations. Your game is a long way from making you the ultimate authority on who can benefit from what though. I’ve read tips in golf magazines that helped me greatly. And keep the BS about having a Clangomatic or any other goods for sale – out. Again, flogging your products is *tacky*. You know better and are trying to avoid the issue, by changing the subject to "Mike’s Secrets to Improvement". Blast away, as long you you shut up about Clangomatic or any other stuff you sell. This is a honourable game, where you call penalties on yourself. I think that should apply to this newsgroup too. Show some integrity and do it by eliminating the pointer to your business in your sig. Relying on the charter’s exemption is something only a lawyer would try to do – a golf business shouldn’t be advertised in a golf newsgroup, even in the signature area. My basic posture in the future will be to dump on *you* for spamming every time I see *anyone* getting dumped on for spamming because you are a "sneaky spammer", the worst kind. Other than that, I don’t intend to discuss this issue with you or anyone else anymore. Other things to do, ya know? (balance snipped). Drone on, Mike jmkanes

Mike has NEVER flogged his products here, He has never spammed here. He has encouraged more folks here to do their OWN club repairs than probably anyone. He has educated more folks in the golf community to get properly fit than anyone. He also contributes to more golf threads about various things than most anyone. You on the other hand have contributed nothing here that I remember.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, got your attention, didn’t I? I’ve been accused on RSG, by someone with apparently less wisdom than ability to bang out thoughts thoughtlessly, that I "tried to put the squelch on discussions of golf mechanics, especially his crack about good golfers on the group not posting to those discussions." So I’m going to start up a thread about that again, this time using clearer language. I have a view on this, a view that I thought might actually help some whose goals in golf are similar to mine, i.e., to find out how good they can get. If you don’t share those goals with me, perhaps the best thing to do is mark this thread as "read" and ignore anything from here on out. This is not for those who lack the time and/or resources to work on their games to the extent I’ve been able to. I’m lucky that way–not everyone is. Or perhaps they enjoy the things I will warn against. If so, more power to them. RSG can be lots of things for lots of people, and why not? Nor is this for people who are satisfied with their games. Perhaps playing bogey golf 3 or 4 times per month is what you want out of the game. Again, if so, more power to you. I’m not trying to spoil your fun. But at the same time, I think there is a very interesting thing about RSG swing mechanics threads that I woke up to, and which wised me up about how I might improve. I figured this out after playing a lot with better golfers than I. I always like to see what they do, compare it to what I do, and then try to figure out why I’m making different choices than better golfers. My revelation about swing mechanics and RSG was this: You virtually never see the very best golfers on RSG contribute to swing mechanics threads. Ken Pitts, Mark Koenig (erstwhile RSG’er), Annika1980, Brad Greer–they don’t offer tips and hints about how to improve swing mechanics. Oh, Brad Greer will, in his inimitable way, ask questions about things people say, questions which expose the arguments as incomplete or wrong, but he’s not telling people the secret is this or that tip. David Laville (terrific ballstriker) contributes, but his commentary is almost always about the very technical side of swing mechanics, and more also along the line of explaining what’s wrong. So I began to wonder: Why do swing tips tend to come from higher handicappers, and not from the lower handicappers that populate RSG? What do the lower handicappers know that I don’t know? Why aren’t they telling us the secret to swinging? Interesting question, that. Like I did, do you wonder if you are looking in all the wrong places? My opinion is this: If you think you’re going to figure out how to swing from reading RSG, I predict you’re going to be disappointed, as I was. I’ve been posting on RSG for about 5 1/2 years; I love the RSG events I’ve been able to attend, the friends I’ve made, the conversations I’ve had. RSG has made golf more fun for me. But it hasn’t helped my swing much, with one exception: The advice to see a pro. I’ve tried tons of things over the years, advice, gadgets, and swing thoughts. Sometimes they’d help, temporarily. Only after a while did I realize they were mostly compensations for a bad swing, compensations that had built on top of compensations. The only thing that has lasted is the advice I got on the AJ Bonar tapes (advice that came from the tapes, BTW, not from RSG per se), but at least I heard about them here. And as far as that goes, the AJ advice likely is applicable to the swing flaws I have, not necessarily something that people can universally benefit from. I discovered that once I stopped looking for the quick fix, the secret, the obvious missing link in my swing, and started seeing a pro on a regular basis, my swing started to come around. I stopped reading the swing mechanics threads on RSG for the most part (except for a couple of people like David and Brad), and started down a path toward real improvement. I only want to hear one message, and that’s the message from my pro. It’s for this reason I don’t read golf magazines, at least, not anything related to the swing. I’ll read the general non-swing articles if I’m sitting in a waiting room, but I won’t subscribe to them–I’m too vulnerable to the tips! :) (Oh, I’ll backslide once in a while, but I’m only human. Usually I’ll recognize this quickly and stop looking at tips or swing threads before they do too much damage to me. Hopefully. Once I started doing this, my handicap dropped. It may have partly been the new mental framework this gave me–to stop looking for the quick fix, the big secret–which now had me looking for the little things, not the big things. The cumulative effect has been what has caused my index to drop to a low of 7.3 this year. Last Saturday I won our nooners group with a 74, took home a chunk of change as a result. This is something I could only have dreamed of two years ago. And a big reason is that I stopped reading the swing mechanics threads on RSG. Sure, that index dropped because of a lot of other things too–like mental game, course management–but without getting a more reliable swing, those other things are much harder to do. It’s hard to make birdies if you’re always 40 feet away! I have little doubt that there will be some who are offended by this. Some might decide I’m trying to tell them what to post about here. Nothing is further from the truth (as if I had the power to do that anyway). I fully have the power to ignore what they say, if I don’t want to read it. Come to think of it, I already do this. I virtually ignore the swing mechanics threads. Others might think I’m trying to take their fun away from them (whereas I made it clear above, more power to them). Still others might argue I’m putting down high handicappers, which I am not. Heck, I used to be one! But one thing I keep coming back to: I wish I knew then what I know now. And I’m not saying other threads don’t have importance. I think there are a lot of great threads that *are* helpful to playing the game on RSG: What to eat during a round, how to fight fatigue, mental game (and how!), course management, putting, short game stuff, clubmaking, and a dozen other things. This is an offering to those who are high handicappers, guys (and gals!) who really want to get their game to the single digit level, to a place where they break 80 regularly, and even threaten par, not on each hole, but over 18 of them. It’s my view of this, nothing more. Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads? Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way? Mike

As a response from someone you mentioned…..I like the swing mechanics threads, and I do participate in them. I try to point out, not mine, but staements from the Great teachers. In argueing, I’ll try to say that ‘ ledbetter says’, or ‘ Butch says’, or ‘Haney says’ in an effort to show a fallacy in someone elses’ thesis. Sometimes, I’ll share *my* opinion, but that is almost always a function of theory I’ve goten from someone else. In terms of swing mechanics, I have no knowledge in and of itself, just a bunch of things I’ve read from others’ work. DL, he knows a bunch. He really does.

Response:

:OK, got your attention, didn’t I? : :I’ve been accused on RSG, by someone with apparently less wisdom than :ability to bang out thoughts thoughtlessly, that I "tried to put the :squelch on discussions of golf mechanics, especially his crack about :good golfers on the group not posting to those discussions." I think you were giving the message that "good golfers" don’t post therefore if you post (on golf mechanics) you must be a hacker. That seems to me to be an fairly sophisticated effort to squelch discussion. Nobody wants to be labeled a "hacker" by implication. Better to listen to you discuss (undistracted by the lively swing mechanics threads) the *real* factors behind success on the course. Rotella (agree), lessons from a golf pro (agree) or the wondrous "Clang-o-matic" (oops, you sell those don’t you?). I think using this newsgroup to flog your products is tacky. Doing it under the guise of helping people find their way in the game is double tacky, bordering on sleazy. That was my basic problem with your squelch and your subsequent offering. In fact it was my *only* problem. I don’t care if you think reading the Koran and eating pinecones is part of the "one true way". So you’ve shot a few rounds in the 70’s. That’s great, congratulations. Your game is a long way from making you the ultimate authority on who can benefit from what though. I’ve read tips in golf magazines that helped me greatly. And keep the BS about having a Clangomatic or any other goods for sale – out. Again, flogging your products is *tacky*. You know better and are trying to avoid the issue, by changing the subject to "Mike’s Secrets to Improvement". Blast away, as long you you shut up about Clangomatic or any other stuff you sell. This is a honourable game, where you call penalties on yourself. I think that should apply to this newsgroup too. Show some integrity and do it by eliminating the pointer to your business in your sig. Relying on the charter’s exemption is something only a lawyer would try to do – a golf business shouldn’t be advertised in a golf newsgroup, even in the signature area. My basic posture in the future will be to dump on *you* for spamming every time I see *anyone* getting dumped on for spamming because you are a "sneaky spammer", the worst kind. Other than that, I don’t intend to discuss this issue with you or anyone else anymore. Other things to do, ya know? (balance snipped). Drone on, Mike jmkanes

Response:

I think your post was right on the mark. The reason is probably because a post on RSG really doesn’t tell you what is wrong with your swing. A swing needs to be seen to truely tell what is wrong. Look at a series of golf magazines and there are probably 50 ways to cure your slice. Pick the wrong ones and your game gets worse. So I am with you, take a series of lessons from a pro that you work well with and don’t read the tips section of golf magazines and your handicap will probably drop. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads? Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – great observations snipped Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads? Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way? Mike, I could not agree more. I quit reading any article that promised to "fix" any part of my game (slice, fade, hook, etc.) and gave up reading the mags. I do not read the swing mechanics threads except to scan them quickly to see what is really being talked about. Perhaps the reason we high-handicappers participate more is because we have faults in our swings that are more easily mended by online advice, whereas the better golfers need much finer adjustments than can be had without actual observation? It’s a lot easier to suggest a fix for someone whose problem is hitting the ball onto the adjacent fairway than for someone who’s driving onto the green and "just" wants to get closer to the hole. Eliyahu

I don’t doubt that high handicappers participate more because they need more help, but the question that I find interesting is why you don’t receive very many answers from the lowest handicappers? Why aren’t they helping? Could it be that they know they can’t, and the best way to deal with this is to see a pro? Mike — Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!

Response:

great observations snipped Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads? Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way? Mike, I could not agree more. I quit reading any article that promised to "fix" any part of my game (slice, fade, hook, etc.) and gave up reading the mags. I do not read the swing mechanics threads except to scan them quickly to see what is really being talked about.

Perhaps the reason we high-handicappers participate more is because we have faults in our swings that are more easily mended by online advice, whereas the better golfers need much finer adjustments than can be had without actual observation? It’s a lot easier to suggest a fix for someone whose problem is hitting the ball onto the adjacent fairway than for someone who’s driving onto the green and "just" wants to get closer to the hole. Eliyahu

Response:

I have a 6 handicap. Is that low enough to offer swing mechanics adivice?

Low enough? You don’t even need a handicap to offer advice. Do what you will. The point of my original post is that low handicappers almost never offer such advice. You haven’t offered any before now, which kind of makes my point, doesn’t it? Mike Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!

Response:

I have a 6 handicap. Is that low enough to offer swing mechanics adivice?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – great observations snipped Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads? Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way? Mike, I could not agree more. I quit reading any article that promised to "fix" any part of my game (slice, fade, hook, etc.) and gave up reading the mags. I do not read the swing mechanics threads except to scan them quickly to see what is really being talked about. I only listen to my pro, and it took me awhile to find the right one. She’s great for me. She sees things I had no clue I was doing (and many times, they are things I know I should not do – and thought I wasn’t) and she explains things to me in a way that I can immediately grasp the significance, I do not believe one can learn to make a good golf swing from reading. Sure, you can understand the swing better, learn the mechanics, be aware of the troubles you could face, and gain a good to excellent working knowledge of what makes a good swing. However, until you have a pro teaching you, individually, you cannot hope to discover the subtle (or not so subtle) flaws that keep you from making a good swing. Having the knowledge, and being able to execute are different things entirely. Good post, thanks. Rick

Response:

Mike, I could not agree more. I quit reading any article that promised to "fix" any part of my game (slice, fade, hook, etc.) and gave up reading the mags. I do not read the swing mechanics threads except to scan them quickly to see what is really being talked about. I only listen to my pro, and it took me awhile to find the right one. She’s great for me. She sees things I had no clue I was doing (and many times, they are things I know I should not do – and thought I wasn’t) and she explains things to me in a way that I can immediately grasp the significance, I do not believe one can learn to make a good golf swing from reading. Sure, you can understand the swing better, learn the mechanics, be aware of the troubles you could face, and gain a good to excellent working knowledge of what makes a good swing. However, until you have a pro teaching you, individually, you cannot hope to discover the subtle (or not so subtle) flaws that keep you from making a good swing. Having the knowledge, and being able to execute are different things entirely. Good post, thanks. Rick

Response:

OK, got your attention, didn’t I? I’ve been accused on RSG, by someone with apparently less wisdom than ability to bang out thoughts thoughtlessly, that I "tried to put the squelch on discussions of golf mechanics, especially his crack about good golfers on the group not posting to those discussions." So I’m going to start up a thread about that again, this time using clearer language. I have a view on this, a view that I thought might actually help some whose goals in golf are similar to mine, i.e., to find out how good they can get. If you don’t share those goals with me, perhaps the best thing to do is mark this thread as "read" and ignore anything from here on out. This is not for those who lack the time and/or resources to work on their games to the extent I’ve been able to. I’m lucky that way–not everyone is. Or perhaps they enjoy the things I will warn against. If so, more power to them. RSG can be lots of things for lots of people, and why not? Nor is this for people who are satisfied with their games. Perhaps playing bogey golf 3 or 4 times per month is what you want out of the game. Again, if so, more power to you. I’m not trying to spoil your fun. But at the same time, I think there is a very interesting thing about RSG swing mechanics threads that I woke up to, and which wised me up about how I might improve. I figured this out after playing a lot with better golfers than I. I always like to see what they do, compare it to what I do, and then try to figure out why I’m making different choices than better golfers. My revelation about swing mechanics and RSG was this: You virtually never see the very best golfers on RSG contribute to swing mechanics threads. Ken Pitts, Mark Koenig (erstwhile RSG’er), Annika1980, Brad Greer–they don’t offer tips and hints about how to improve swing mechanics. Oh, Brad Greer will, in his inimitable way, ask questions about things people say, questions which expose the arguments as incomplete or wrong, but he’s not telling people the secret is this or that tip. David Laville (terrific ballstriker) contributes, but his commentary is almost always about the very technical side of swing mechanics, and more also along the line of explaining what’s wrong. So I began to wonder: Why do swing tips tend to come from higher handicappers, and not from the lower handicappers that populate RSG? What do the lower handicappers know that I don’t know? Why aren’t they telling us the secret to swinging? Interesting question, that. Like I did, do you wonder if you are looking in all the wrong places? My opinion is this: If you think you’re going to figure out how to swing from reading RSG, I predict you’re going to be disappointed, as I was. I’ve been posting on RSG for about 5 1/2 years; I love the RSG events I’ve been able to attend, the friends I’ve made, the conversations I’ve had. RSG has made golf more fun for me. But it hasn’t helped my swing much, with one exception: The advice to see a pro. I’ve tried tons of things over the years, advice, gadgets, and swing thoughts. Sometimes they’d help, temporarily. Only after a while did I realize they were mostly compensations for a bad swing, compensations that had built on top of compensations. The only thing that has lasted is the advice I got on the AJ Bonar tapes (advice that came from the tapes, BTW, not from RSG per se), but at least I heard about them here. And as far as that goes, the AJ advice likely is applicable to the swing flaws I have, not necessarily something that people can universally benefit from. I discovered that once I stopped looking for the quick fix, the secret, the obvious missing link in my swing, and started seeing a pro on a regular basis, my swing started to come around. I stopped reading the swing mechanics threads on RSG for the most part (except for a couple of people like David and Brad), and started down a path toward real improvement. I only want to hear one message, and that’s the message from my pro. It’s for this reason I don’t read golf magazines, at least, not anything related to the swing. I’ll read the general non-swing articles if I’m sitting in a waiting room, but I won’t subscribe to them–I’m too vulnerable to the tips! :) (Oh, I’ll backslide once in a while, but I’m only human. Usually I’ll recognize this quickly and stop looking at tips or swing threads before they do too much damage to me. Hopefully. Once I started doing this, my handicap dropped. It may have partly been the new mental framework this gave me–to stop looking for the quick fix, the big secret–which now had me looking for the little things, not the big things. The cumulative effect has been what has caused my index to drop to a low of 7.3 this year. Last Saturday I won our nooners group with a 74, took home a chunk of change as a result. This is something I could only have dreamed of two years ago. And a big reason is that I stopped reading the swing mechanics threads on RSG. Sure, that index dropped because of a lot of other things too–like mental game, course management–but without getting a more reliable swing, those other things are much harder to do. It’s hard to make birdies if you’re always 40 feet away! I have little doubt that there will be some who are offended by this. Some might decide I’m trying to tell them what to post about here. Nothing is further from the truth (as if I had the power to do that anyway). I fully have the power to ignore what they say, if I don’t want to read it. Come to think of it, I already do this. I virtually ignore the swing mechanics threads. Others might think I’m trying to take their fun away from them (whereas I made it clear above, more power to them). Still others might argue I’m putting down high handicappers, which I am not. Heck, I used to be one! But one thing I keep coming back to: I wish I knew then what I know now. And I’m not saying other threads don’t have importance. I think there are a lot of great threads that *are* helpful to playing the game on RSG: What to eat during a round, how to fight fatigue, mental game (and how!), course management, putting, short game stuff, clubmaking, and a dozen other things. This is an offering to those who are high handicappers, guys (and gals!) who really want to get their game to the single digit level, to a place where they break 80 regularly, and even threaten par, not on each hole, but over 18 of them. It’s my view of this, nothing more. Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads? Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way? Mike Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!

Response:

It finally happened

admin — Wed, 19 Nov 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

The main road for entering of leaving Corpus Christi Naval Air Station splits the front and back nine of the golf course. I’ve been using that road for ten years and today, finally, my VW got nailed by an errant drive. It was a one-hopper that hit my front bumper–glad they’re made of plastic. I slowed down as I went past the tee and the guy was looking at me–so I yelled at him: "You’re hitting off your back foot!" I just drove away after that. I wonder if he swayed his way to a big slice on the next shot! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd

Response:

says… I wonder if he swayed his way to a big slice on the next shot!

LOL. He probably spent the rest of the round looking over his shoulder expecting to see you and a lawyer heading in his direction. :) So far the only golf damage my vehicle has ever experienced was inflicted by yours truly. I was practicing chipping one day in the yard and darn if I didn’t shank one right into the left front door of my Explorer. Left a nice little golfball sized dent. — Neal B. Richmond, VA RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/?rc=beasleyneal

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You are SO bad!

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So now you have an Explorer with dimples…awwwwww how cute. Lee

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The main road for entering of leaving Corpus Christi Naval Air Station splits the front and back nine of the golf course. I’ve been using that road for ten years and today, finally, my VW got nailed by an errant drive. It was a one-hopper that hit my front bumper–glad they’re made of plastic. I slowed down as I went past the tee and the guy was looking at me–so I yelled at him: "You’re hitting off your back foot!" I just drove away after that. I wonder if he swayed his way to a big slice on the next shot! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd

LOL!!! I’ll never forget my very first golf shot… I got talked into playing in a scramble with college friends. I don’t think I’d ever held a club in my hands until I stepped up and sliced one off the tee on #1 at the old Hermann Park course configuration in Houston. It took off thru the trees, bounced along the street missing dozens of cars, turned right at MacGregor Drive and somehow rolled under a couple of dozen more before it stopped between the zoo and the hospital. I didn’t know any better so I kept chasing it carrying that darn driver. I still catch grief for that shot 30 something years later. I still hate holes where there is traffic within range. — Bob Andrews

Response:

This incident is actually the second golf related damage to your vehicle. The first one was when you bought it, and sat your golfer ass in the seat. Nothing drives down vehicle resale values faster than golfers.

Response:

[...] Ok, next up: the hole-in-one. Ulrich

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says… I wonder if he swayed his way to a big slice on the next shot! LOL. He probably spent the rest of the round looking over his shoulder expecting to see you and a lawyer heading in his direction. :) So far the only golf damage my vehicle has ever experienced was inflicted by yours truly. I was practicing chipping one day in the yard and darn if I didn’t shank one right into the left front door of my Explorer. Left a nice little golfball sized dent.

OK, you aren’t the only one that did this… My Sentra got it

Response:

I didn’t shank one right into the left front door of my Explorer. Left a nice little golfball sized dent.

Got you all beat.In jan 2000 bought my fav car ; BMW 328I (1997).perfect shape.in april that year played a late pm 9. had car parked in front of club house next to first tee.then later while I played parked near 18th green. at the end of my 9 with daylight fadding fast I opened the trunk ot notice right in middle of trunk lid a ball mark (pretty substantial) never figured out if it was hit from 1 or 18 ,(LOL). About 4 months later (late june) I had just had my grips replaced and was very excited about it. afriend called to play and was so full of joy I decided to hit a ball into woods behind my house with 9 iron.As I lined up the shot I played it left of a pretty big tree…(the best layed plans of mice and men?) sports fans ( and accumulated bashers) I swing I hit and scream oh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo…The ball hit the tree took a big bounce and guess where it landed?Right in the middle of the hood .Its almost symmetrical with with the one on the trunk.So I have a BMW with 2 golf ball dings.pretty unique.

Response:

Driver angle of 11 degrees

admin — Thu, 06 Nov 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

My brother is a teaching professional, and plays a 7* driver. He hits the ball much higher and further than I do. If he hit my driver (which he doesn’t … he’s a righty and I’m a lefty!), he’d probably lose significant distance because the ball flight and spin would be far too high.

I suppose hitting the ball with the back of the club head can do that.

Response:

says… While its true that any "one size fits all" suggestion is wrong (it seems to indicate that players who carry it 180 or so should hit a 16 driver, too bad they don’t make such a thing) your belief (and your brother’s) that your brother should hitting 7 degrees is outdated. Golfworks (Maltby) makes a 16* driver — the Mr. Big 305.

And if I’m not mistaken, they now have a 405cc version of this. Mike Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!

Response:

I read the article and it makes some sense. I hit a 9 degree regular flex shaft now. I had my swing speed with the driver measured at 105 mph. My instructor said I am right on the edge of moving to a stiff shaft. I figure with lessons I am getting better, so moving up to a firm flex shaft makes sense. I will at least move to a 10 degree and try to find an 11 degree.

Response:

Touche! Actually, Howard, he really pisses me off when he can hit my left handed 8 iron farther than I do! Larry

Response:

It is recommended that where a flex requirement is borderline, select / stay with the low side. And too, there is no industry "standard" for _flex_, as such. —— I hit a 9 degree regular flex shaft now. I had my swing speed with the driver measured at 105 mph. My instructor said I am right on the edge f moving to a stiff shaft. I figure with lessons I am getting better, so moving up to a firm flex

shaft makes sense. I will at least move to a 10 degree and try to find an 11 degree.

m h o

Questions for the darksiders

admin — Thu, 06 Nov 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

have broken. I have never heard of a graphite shaft breaking (during normal use!),

Then you must have missed my post about one of my playing partners breaking two of them. Of course, in the interest of full disclosure, I must tell you that the graphics on those shafts said "Warrior Golf." IMHO, graphite and steel are totally different animals. It’s either one or the other.

Then you are henceforth banned from playing with your Bimatrix!! :-) Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd

Response:

Tradition holds that graphite shafts should be about an inch longer than steel. Why is that? And would I really get the same performance from a 42" steel shaft vs. a 43" graphite shaft? Could I not just make the steel shaft 43"?

Sure can…but drop about a measured 10 cpm if changing to steel, steel always ‘feels’ and ‘plays’ much stiffer than the graphite for the same measured flex! david

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have a hybrid 15* that I’ve been happy with but I have the itch to build a 3w. Found the Power Play Keel Steel woods that I believe I will be going with. Been looking at graphite shafts all along but I’ve been apprehensive about spine aligning. Seems easy enough but since I’ve never done it before or seen a step-by-step set of instructions, so I’m not real confident that I could do it correctly. And after hearing remarks about how filament wound shaft tend to break I started looking at steel shafts. Tradition holds that graphite shafts should be about an inch longer than steel. Why is that? And would I really get the same performance from a 42" steel shaft vs. a 43" graphite shaft? Could I not just make the steel shaft 43"? Help, as always, is greatly appreciated!

I would want to see if I were better with steel vs graphite first. Make the same club with both types of shafts and hit a lot of balls, recording what happens to each shot, and see which you make the most good shots with. I have never had a graphite shaft break on me, but several steel shafts have broken. I have never heard of a graphite shaft breaking (during normal use!), but have also heard a lot about steel shafts breaking (of course long hitters can snap graphite shafts, but they can also bend steel shafts as well). Go for spine aligning if it makes you feel better, but I don’t see it affecting play at all, but it’s your money and/or your time. How a shaft performs under a load of 200 grams and how it performs under a load of 30 pounds of pressure are two different things (and when you swing it’s 30 lbs!). A decent shaft will perform well for you in any orientation, IMHO. Graphite shafts are longer for swingweight reasons, and you don’t have to make the shafts longer. You can use heavier graphite shafts or add weight to the clubhead for swingweight, or do as I do and don’t worry about it. IMHO, graphite and steel are totally different animals. It’s either one or the other. If I were into steel, I don’t think I would have graphite even in the driver. The feel is that different to me. Graphite is demonstrably superior for me, and so I have graphite in all my clubs, even my putter. IMHO, steel tends to cause an OTT swing, wheras OTT doesn’t work too well with lightweight R flex graphite; either swing properly or die! I use lightweight graphite and thus have light clubs because they are not any shorter than they would be if they were steel. The thing is to try out different things for yourself over time and *LEARN* what is best for you based as much on personal experience as possible. JMHO, of course. — RSG Masters 2004 pre-preliminary format http://home.att.net/~frostback2002 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/?rc=frostback "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are" Joseph Campbell

Response:

I have a hybrid 15* that I’ve been happy with but I have the itch to build a 3w. Found the Power Play Keel Steel woods that I believe I will be going with. Been looking at graphite shafts all along but I’ve been apprehensive about spine aligning. Seems easy enough but since I’ve never done it before or seen a step-by-step set of instructions, so I’m not real confident that I could do it correctly. And after hearing remarks about how filament wound shaft tend to break I started looking at steel shafts. Tradition holds that graphite shafts should be about an inch longer than steel. Why is that? And would I really get the same performance from a 42" steel shaft vs. a 43" graphite shaft? Could I not just make the steel shaft 43"? Help, as always, is greatly appreciated!

Response:

You need the equipment to do it. A simple spinefinder can be built for $15-20 in parts (you need 3 bearings). Or you can buy a shaft that has been "pured." And after hearing remarks about how filament wound shaft tend to break I started looking at steel shafts. Tradition holds that graphite shafts should be about an inch longer than steel. Why is that?

It’s not tradition–it’s maintaining swingweight. Graphite is lighter than steel, therefore the entire club weight is lighter (and lighter in swingweight) than for a steel-shafted club of the same length. In order to offset that lower weight, the club is made longer. Even then, the 1" length differential is only an approximation. Whether you get the same swingweight depends on the actual weight of the shaft. And would I really get the same performance from a 42" steel shaft vs. a 43" graphite shaft?

No. They’re different. Assuming similar flexes that are both appropriate for you, you’d find the graphite-shafted club would likely achieve somewhat greater distance (a few yards). Depending on how tip-flexible they were, they might be different in terms of launch angle. You’d probably be more accurate w/ the steel shafted club because it’s shorter, and would likely be easier to control, and because the torque would be lower. You might or might not be as accurate w/ the graphite club depending on the spine and its alignment; it’s less important to do this in steel (meaning the effect of a misaligned shaft is less). Graphite has two innate advantages: It allows clubs to be built longer at the same swingweight or clubs to be lighter at the same length, and it absorbs shock of mishits better than steel (which can be an advantage for those with pain due to tendinitis or arthritis, for whom a mishit can be an adventure in pain). Graphite, though, has one inherent disadvantage: It’s not as consistent as steel is. Spines, and inherent inconsistency in flex means that it’s more a hit-or-miss proposition than using steel (with very expensive shafts this is less an issue). This can be mitigated, of course, by spine aligning and FLOing, and by careful matching of frequency to a standard you wish to meet, but that’s not something the average hobbyist clubmaker has the equipment to do. I have a graphite shaft in my driver, because it allows me to build to a length of 45.5". It is, of course, spined and FLO’d. Great shaft, a Fujikura Vista Pro 70. A steel-shafted driver that long would be way too heavy for me. But I have steel in my 3-wood. Why? Because I wanted a shorter club, easier to control, and more consistent. I don’t need the maximum distance a graphite-shafted 3-wood might produce for me. I need to keep it in the short stuff more than I need the distance, and this club will do it. And I have steel in my irons. IMO, unless you have pain issues, there’s little reason to use graphite in irons. You *can* make the clubs longer, but so what? Does it really matter that you can hit an 8-iron where you used to hit a 7-iron? The only place that extra length shows up on the course is in your longest iron, something most people don’t hit most of the time anyway. And the extra distance can create gaps between your wedges. Could I not just make the steel shaft 43"?

Sure. That’s about what mine is. Help, as always, is greatly appreciated!

What you need to do is think about what you want this club to do for you. Is distance an issue? Will you be teeing off with it a lot? Are you more interested in control and direction than in maximum distance? Unless you need the distance, I’d suggest you go with steel. Mike Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!