Question:
OK, got your attention, didn’t I? <snip Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads? Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way? Mike
Excellent post, Mike. — David Sneddon Hi-Tech Turf Synthetic Turf Applications Tel: 519-259-2092
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [...] Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads? Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way? First, I thought your post was an excellent thread topic, Mike, and a very thoughtful post. Second, I thought jmkanes’ post was one of the weirder responses I’ve ever read in RSG. Talk about tangential! 
I can only speak for myself, of course, but I don’t know enough about the golf swing to participate in swing mechanics threads. In fact, I feel completely intimidated by those who do, David Laville, for example. He seems _very_ knowledgeable…and will cut my nuts off if I spew garbage. I’ll pass. In my 42 years of golf, I’ve always played well enough–until the last few years, always a 3 or less and scratch or better for a lot of that time. I’ve played well because I’ve focused on always getting down to fundamentals and, for the most part, have stayed away from "band aids". From the very start, for some reason, I was never very interested in a tip that might take me from a 9 handicap to a 7, for example; I seemed to approach golf from the "how do the very best players in the world do it?" point of view. As I recall, my mental approach was always to build my swing for the very highest level and then accept where I ended up, sort of the reverse of starting poorly and creeping toward improvement, I think. Maybe that’s in my make-up. As a former (and evaporating rapidly!) low handicapper, I can’t offer any swing advice at all except, perhaps, some very basic advice. I do suggest, however, that you shoot for the moon and build your swing from the ground up and for the highest level you can imagine. If you are a 14 handicap trying to become a 10, I think you’ll probably become a 13. Instead, stick with the fundamentals which are taught by a qualified instructor and which can be readily observed in top players if you have that type of an eye. Mike’s observation about improving by playing with better players is right on the money, IMO. Play with the best players you can find and compete in stroke play (I don’t mean scrambles, etc.) tournaments. Play many courses with varying conditions, not just your own over and over. You don’t want to become a "homer". Never lose sight of the "quality of the strike" by becoming focused solely on scoring. Have very high expectations, high enough that you will still be pleased with results that will inevitably be somewhat less than you aimed for. Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at benewman dot bizland dot com * http://go.to/bruce_newman
I knew I’d leave out a few–you were obviously one of them, Bruce. Thanks for a terrific view of this from one of those "low" handicappers. Mike — Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
Response:
I only listen to my pro, and it took me awhile to find the right one. She’s great for me. She sees things I had no clue I was doing (and many times, they are things I know I should not do – and thought I wasn’t) and she explains things to me in a way that I can immediately grasp the significance,
That sounds just like me with my "pro". Could be we have the same one. Is it Suzy, over at the Oriental Massage parlor? I find her "hands on" instruction to be especially beneficial, although the videotape sessions are pretty good too… seamus (on me)
Response:
I have a 6 handicap. Is that low enough to offer swing mechanics adivice?
No, not unless specifically asked by someone that knows you….and for their personal swing. I know a 2 handicap player that can’t tell you anything about the swing. ___, o | / . "Someone likes every shot" bk
Response:
[...] Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads? Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way?
First, I thought your post was an excellent thread topic, Mike, and a very thoughtful post. Second, I thought jmkanes’ post was one of the weirder responses I’ve ever read in RSG. Talk about tangential! I can only speak for myself, of course, but I don’t know enough about the golf swing to participate in swing mechanics threads. In fact, I feel completely intimidated by those who do, David Laville, for example. He seems _very_ knowledgeable…and will cut my nuts off if I spew garbage. I’ll pass. In my 42 years of golf, I’ve always played well enough–until the last few years, always a 3 or less and scratch or better for a lot of that time. I’ve played well because I’ve focused on always getting down to fundamentals and, for the most part, have stayed away from "band aids". From the very start, for some reason, I was never very interested in a tip that might take me from a 9 handicap to a 7, for example; I seemed to approach golf from the "how do the very best players in the world do it?" point of view. As I recall, my mental approach was always to build my swing for the very highest level and then accept where I ended up, sort of the reverse of starting poorly and creeping toward improvement, I think. Maybe that’s in my make-up. As a former (and evaporating rapidly!) low handicapper, I can’t offer any swing advice at all except, perhaps, some very basic advice. I do suggest, however, that you shoot for the moon and build your swing from the ground up and for the highest level you can imagine. If you are a 14 handicap trying to become a 10, I think you’ll probably become a 13. Instead, stick with the fundamentals which are taught by a qualified instructor and which can be readily observed in top players if you have that type of an eye. Mike’s observation about improving by playing with better players is right on the money, IMO. Play with the best players you can find and compete in stroke play (I don’t mean scrambles, etc.) tournaments. Play many courses with varying conditions, not just your own over and over. You don’t want to become a "homer". Never lose sight of the "quality of the strike" by becoming focused solely on scoring. Have very high expectations, high enough that you will still be pleased with results that will inevitably be somewhat less than you aimed for. Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at benewman dot bizland dot com * http://go.to/bruce_newman
Response:
"Virtually" is the linguistic equivalent of crossing your fingers behind your keyboard.
It can also be used as a synonym for rarely.
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I have a 6 handicap. Is that low enough to offer swing mechanics adivice?
No. Apparently, it’s too low to offer swing mechanics advice. –Blair "I’m working on it."
Response:
I think using this newsgroup to flog your products is tacky. Doing it under the guise of helping people find their way in the game is double tacky, bordering on sleazy. That was my basic problem with your squelch and your subsequent offering. In fact it was my *only* problem. I don’t care if you think reading the Koran and eating pinecones is part of the "one true way".
Here we have it folks, a plethora of pompous and preposterous posts from the bungling buffoon of bumcombe. You, jmkanes, have all of the intellect and half the wit of a compost pile. This is a honourable game, where you call penalties on yourself.
Then why do you play it? You display a remarkable lack of honor, perhaps you like the penalty-calling aspect? I think that should apply to this newsgroup too.
Damn right. Show some integrity and do it by eliminating the pointer to your business
in your sig. Show some compassion and plonk yourself. Consider it a present to RSG; there are only 31 more shopping days ’til Christmas, so unsubscribe now and beat the crowds! Relying on the charter’s exemption is something only a lawyer would try to do – a golf business shouldn’t be advertised in a golf newsgroup, even in the signature area.
Nice of you to come to this group and tell everyone how to run it. The charter is more representative of RSG than you are. My basic posture in the future will be to dump on *you* for spamming
Since you are an idiot, we could hardly expect anything less. every time I see *anyone* getting dumped on for spamming because you are a "sneaky spammer", the worst kind. Other than that, I don’t intend to discuss this issue with you or anyone else anymore.
That’s damned decent of you since you post dozens of lines about the stuff you claim is completely uninteresting. One could hardly imagine the volume of tripe you could produce if you were mildly interested in a subject.
Response:
that tip. David Laville (terrific ballstriker) contributes, but his commentary is almost always about the very technical side of swing mechanics, and more also along the line of explaining what’s wrong.
And then defending to the death his right to be wrong about what’s wrong, despite his deficient understanding of physics. My opinion is this: If you think you’re going to figure out how to swing from reading RSG, I predict you’re going to be disappointed, as I was.
I thought after I’d had a few lessons in the basics I was going to figure out how to swing like a pro from reading Golf, Golf Illustrated, Golf Digest, and 12-15 books. But the single biggest hint came from Dean Reinmuth on TV teaching a Junior Champion how to hit the cut-slice that was the only shot I *could* hit until I saw him explain what causes it. My point is, it’s not just RSG. There’s a million hints and drills and keys out there, and it’s a crapshoot whether you’re going to find the one that unclenches your grip. But it hasn’t helped my swing much, with one exception: The advice to see a pro.
Pros vary, too. (It’s that thought that keeps people coming here for the $free variations…) I’ve tried tons of things over the years, advice, gadgets, and swing thoughts. Sometimes they’d help, temporarily. Only after a while did I realize they were mostly compensations for a bad swing, compensations that had built on top of compensations.
You sound like you’re introducing a book on how to swing a golf club. The next paragraph should say something like, "now you too can learn the secret to a perfect golf swing." The only thing that has lasted is the advice I got on the AJ Bonar tapes (advice that came from the tapes, BTW, not from RSG per se), but at least I heard about them here. And as far as that goes, the AJ advice likely is applicable to the swing flaws I have, not necessarily something that people can universally benefit from.
Reinmuth: See, what you do is, you open your stance a little… Blair: Not my problem. Reinmuth: …you stand almost uncomfortably close to the ball… Blair: I wasn’t doing that. Reinmuth: …and you tighten the grip of the last two fingers of your top hand. See, sometimes the clue isn’t because someone thought to tell you the right thing, it’s because they thought to say something else. Not often (once every 13 years, so far), but sometimes. I only want to hear one message, and that’s the message from my pro.
He doesn’t sell cold cream by any chance? Nah. to drop to a low of 7.3 this year. Last Saturday I won our nooners group with a 74, took home a chunk of change as a result. This is something I could only have dreamed of two years ago. And a big reason is that I stopped reading the swing mechanics threads on RSG.
And started practicing more regularly, no doubt. anyway). I fully have the power to ignore what they say, if I don’t want to read it. Come to think of it, I already do this. I virtually ignore the swing mechanics threads.
"Virtually" is the linguistic equivalent of crossing your fingers behind your keyboard. Others might think I’m trying to take their fun away from them (whereas I made it clear above, more power to them). Still others might argue I’m putting down high handicappers, which I am not. Heck, I used to be one! But one thing I keep coming back to: I wish I knew then what I know now.
I wish I knew in 9 years what I’ll know in 12. (This is a fun game.) Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads?
Who? Tiger, Vijay, Weirsy, and Ernie? I suspect because they’re busy decorating their 19Ksf houses and picking out the weekend’s poon-tang. Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way?
Could it be because they’ve been through it before? To them your swing flaw is a FAQ and the volume on the group is high enough they’d rather just go on to the clubmaking threads? Or maybe they’re just lucky to "get it" and don’t really know what their mechanics are, or what it feels like to do the wrong thing, or to do the right thing in the wrong way… –Blair "Tell us why Tiger Woods needs constant coaching in something he perfected at age 12, again?"
Response:
My basic posture in the future will be to dump on *you* for spamming every time I see *anyone* getting dumped on for spamming because you are a "sneaky spammer", the worst kind.
And you’re a clueless loon who just doesn’t get it. Other than that, I don’t intend to discuss this issue with you or anyone else anymore.
Sounds good to me. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, flogging your products is *tacky*. You know better and are trying to avoid the issue, by changing the subject to "Mike’s Secrets to Improvement". Blast away, as long you you shut up about Clangomatic or any other stuff you sell. This is a honourable game, where you call penalties on yourself. I think that should apply to this newsgroup too. Show some integrity and do it by eliminating the pointer to your business in your sig. Relying on the charter’s exemption is something only a lawyer would try to do – a golf business shouldn’t be advertised in a golf newsgroup, even in the signature area. My basic posture in the future will be to dump on *you* for spamming every time I see *anyone* getting dumped on for spamming because you are a "sneaky spammer", the worst kind. Other than that, I don’t intend to discuss this issue with you or anyone else anymore. Other things to do, ya know? Yeah, so you expect to say your bit without being challenged on it? What exactly is wrong, if you are a contributor of "substance" here, or indeed anyone at all, with having a sig line showing your credentials, your background and/or your business? If there’s nothing wrong with it, that leaves the body of the message as the point of issue. Your issue about "sneaky" spammers being the worst kind is to some extent true. But my version of "sneaky" is the ones who use the main body of the message to mention their products while *appearing* to say something meaningful. I never had a problem with George Hibbard, for instance, using a sig line. My gripe with him was always the constant reference to "my video" or "my book" in the answers he gave. But please tell me where Mike has ever mentioned "my clubs" or "my products". To extend the definition of "sneaky" to a sig line is bullshit, just crafted to make your argument look valid. Nowhere in any post that I can remember has Mike ever said "buy my clubs" or "get this driver from me". In fact, once someone asked for a clubmaker in Wisconsin, and Mike replied, sans sig, giving some other sources. I appreciate Mike’s posts, as he is one of the few really qualified people here on clubmaking, since guys like Dave Tutelman went away. IMHO, you are making an issue of this just for the sake of making an issue. You are also contributing noise, trying to drive away people who have something good and useful to say, and imho just big-noting yourself. For the record I stated I didn’t have a problem with Nicolas’s mention of his site. I did make a point that so far that’s the only type of contribution he’s ever made here … that is to post to make everyone aware of it. I can’t remember any other post he’s made about a golfing topic generally. If you follow through your threat to stalk Mike everytime he legitimately mentions spammers, I’ll just plonk you as fast as possible. Cyber stalking, whether it’s by some nutcase on Ken Pitts, or you on Mike, is totally unethical. You should think twice before you engage in it.
Couldn’t agree more, Colin. And you have identified the factors exactly which led me to plonk jmkanes a long time ago. AFAIC, there is nobody on this board more honorable than Mike Dalecki, who is also the soul of generosity, to boot. When I began to get the Dark Side infection, he was available to me way beyond reasonableness…I plagued him with questions, and he was very happy to 1)welcome me to the trade, and 2)supply me with incredible amounts of valuable information and encouragement. In addition, as may have already been mentioned, he made up several clubs with differing shaft orientations, and sent them around to folks to try out in the name of testing some theories about spining and FLO’ing, gratis. It was not to flog his own business…but to encourage people to look for themselves at this aspect of clubmaking. In fact, he has done more to support people going into the craft than anyone else on rsg…helping to develop competition! These are not the actions of a selfish or self-concerned businessman. They are the actions of a worthy citizen of this community. jmkanes is way way way off base in his charges and insults. As you’ve pointed out, his only contribution to rsg is noise. He stays on my shitlist. Peter
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – great observations snipped Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads? Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way? Mike, I could not agree more. I quit reading any article that promised to "fix" any part of my game (slice, fade, hook, etc.) and gave up reading the mags. I do not read the swing mechanics threads except to scan them quickly to see what is really being talked about. Perhaps the reason we high-handicappers participate more is because we have faults in our swings that are more easily mended by online advice, whereas the better golfers need much finer adjustments than can be had without actual observation? It’s a lot easier to suggest a fix for someone whose problem is hitting the ball onto the adjacent fairway than for someone who’s driving onto the green and "just" wants to get closer to the hole. Eliyahu I don’t doubt that high handicappers participate more because they need more help, but the question that I find interesting is why you don’t receive very many answers from the lowest handicappers? Why aren’t they helping? Could it be that they know they can’t, and the best way to deal with this is to see a pro?
That’s possible. It also might be that the problems afflicting hi-hcp golfers are usually the same ones, over and over, and they’re tired of giving the same answers. Eliyahu
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Again, flogging your products is *tacky*. You know better and are trying to avoid the issue, by changing the subject to "Mike’s Secrets to Improvement". Blast away, as long you you shut up about Clangomatic or any other stuff you sell. This is a honourable game, where you call penalties on yourself. I think that should apply to this newsgroup too. Show some integrity and do it by eliminating the pointer to your business in your sig. Relying on the charter’s exemption is something only a lawyer would try to do – a golf business shouldn’t be advertised in a golf newsgroup, even in the signature area. My basic posture in the future will be to dump on *you* for spamming every time I see *anyone* getting dumped on for spamming because you are a "sneaky spammer", the worst kind. Other than that, I don’t intend to discuss this issue with you or anyone else anymore. Other things to do, ya know?
Yeah, so you expect to say your bit without being challenged on it? What exactly is wrong, if you are a contributor of "substance" here, or indeed anyone at all, with having a sig line showing your credentials, your background and/or your business? If there’s nothing wrong with it, that leaves the body of the message as the point of issue. Your issue about "sneaky" spammers being the worst kind is to some extent true. But my version of "sneaky" is the ones who use the main body of the message to mention their products while *appearing* to say something meaningful. I never had a problem with George Hibbard, for instance, using a sig line. My gripe with him was always the constant reference to "my video" or "my book" in the answers he gave. But please tell me where Mike has ever mentioned "my clubs" or "my products". To extend the definition of "sneaky" to a sig line is bullshit, just crafted to make your argument look valid. Nowhere in any post that I can remember has Mike ever said "buy my clubs" or "get this driver from me". In fact, once someone asked for a clubmaker in Wisconsin, and Mike replied, sans sig, giving some other sources. I appreciate Mike’s posts, as he is one of the few really qualified people here on clubmaking, since guys like Dave Tutelman went away. IMHO, you are making an issue of this just for the sake of making an issue. You are also contributing noise, trying to drive away people who have something good and useful to say, and imho just big-noting yourself. For the record I stated I didn’t have a problem with Nicolas’s mention of his site. I did make a point that so far that’s the only type of contribution he’s ever made here … that is to post to make everyone aware of it. I can’t remember any other post he’s made about a golfing topic generally. If you follow through your threat to stalk Mike everytime he legitimately mentions spammers, I’ll just plonk you as fast as possible. Cyber stalking, whether it’s by some nutcase on Ken Pitts, or you on Mike, is totally unethical. You should think twice before you engage in it. BTW, I am happy to display a sig. It just shows my affiliations, so that people can find out who I am, and the club I belong to … if they want to. I doubt many people would care. — Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Response:
Geez Mike, that’s a lot of words to say "swing tips suck, go see a pro" 8^). I think in general that’s pretty good advice, but I have a couple of thoughts on what you wrote … – could be that most good golfers don’t want to talk mechanics simply because they like their swing and don’t want to mess with it. A fear of thinking too much, and a disinterest in talking about it because they know most of it (or at least have a swing they like). – I suspect a good pro is the best/quickest way to learn the golf swing, but I really don’t know since I haven’t found one I like/trust. Can’t say that I’ve tried really hard, but have had a few lessons from 3 different instructors over the 4 years I’ve been playing, and never really liked any of them enough to keep going. – I have read a lot of books and think that’s been the biggest help to becoming at least a decent golfer (13 hcp after 4 years). I think this just happens to be something that works pretty well for me … may not be for everyone. My favorites are those that teach swing awareness and the feeling of a "swing". John Jacobs, who teaches reading the ball flight to correct problems, and Jim Flick, who preaches "swing" and "feel", and others. – "swing tips" can be dangerous … they may or may not be relevant to your personal swing, and there’s a real danger in always chasing the latest tip and not staying with something long enough to ingrain a feel and make a real improvement. I’ve recently tried not think or work too much on "swing tips", and stick to a few basics .. I think it’s helped. Anything you read on RSG should be taken with a grain of salt, but that’s really not much different than anything you read about golf anyway. BTW, can you help me with my slice? 8^). Rob
Response:
snip post….. The better players I know don’t think about their swing. The better players around here shoot in the 60’s BTW. One guy I know who is one of the better golfers in this area couldn’t break 80 for many years, but he kept plugging away, trying everything he could, and now he can break 70 on your basic 6200-6400 yard recreational layout if he prepares at all; we are, of course, talking about people who shoot these scores on a lot of different courses, not just one. Anyhoo, this now good player doesn’t fool with his swing for obvious reasons. Last year, and the year before, I was to the point of shooting less than 80 about 1/2 the time, and was into the high single digit range, but chose to make swing improvements that I hope will get me to be able to shoot less than 70. Another thing that bothered me was that I couldn’t do better than mid 80’s on courses other than my regular course, and the good players can shoot their scores on any course. Swing changes take time to work in and have a cost in scoring. I have broken par for 9 holes 5 times this year, but had some really bad rounds as well. My bad rounds are caused by bad short game though. The thing I needed this year was more distance off the driver. I need to get the driver out 240+, closer to 260 if I can to give myself a chance on the 400+ par 4’s. 180 to the green 5 or 6 times a round on the 400+ par 4’s, plus the 2 or 3 180 or so par 3’s can leave me with 180 yard or so shots to the green 1/2 the time, and that just ain’t going to cut it if I want to break par. So I wanted to add length. RSG’s Sparky has posted about keeping loose, and some wrist excercises as well as yoga style loosening up that have helped me a lot. David Laville has posted a lot about lag, which has helped me as well. The LAWS of golf concepts, also posted here, have helped me a lot. With the W swing and a loose but athletic swing I don’t have to take as much of a backswing to get a good shot that is much longer than what I had been doing. I still face the old issues of weight transfer (stuck on right side and chili dip short shots and hit the ground behind the ball on long shots) and not accelerating the hands through the ball for a weak hook. However, I am hitting the ball a lot better. Scoring suffers from too many reversions. A long backswing here, stiff arms/wrists there and no wrist cock every once in a while kill my scoring and overall I don’t have the feel I need to hit greens. Scoring also suffers hugely from lack of work on the short game while I work so hard on the long game. But the last few rounds my fairways hit are back over 75% with drives over 250 almost all the time. Working on my putting and chipping has helped a lot there, and put a few bucks in my pocket (won on sat and sun this week). A real nice change is that I am hitting my long irons well now, and can banish the much wilder fairway woods to the garage. I really have a good feeling about my swing when I get the bugs out, and they seem to be almost out. All in all though, as I work on my game, stuff from RSG has helped me a lot. When I get to the point of being able to break 70 reasonably often, I’m not going to think too much about swing advice, but as for now, anything anyone has that might help, I might listen. I know enough from the golf I have played to know what doesn’t work for me, although some things might work for others. If I never get to the point of breaking 70 fairly often, I will always work on my game. In these parts, you want to play with the big boys, you need to be able to break 70. The grade B/C guys shoot in the 70’s. I’m currently a D type shooting in the low to mid 80’s.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – :OK, got your attention, didn’t I? : :I’ve been accused on RSG, by someone with apparently less wisdom than :ability to bang out thoughts thoughtlessly, that I "tried to put the :squelch on discussions of golf mechanics, especially his crack about :good golfers on the group not posting to those discussions." I think you were giving the message that "good golfers" don’t post therefore if you post (on golf mechanics) you must be a hacker. That seems to me to be an fairly sophisticated effort to squelch discussion. Nobody wants to be labeled a "hacker" by implication. Better to listen to you discuss (undistracted by the lively swing mechanics threads) the *real* factors behind success on the course. Rotella (agree), lessons from a golf pro (agree) or the wondrous "Clang-o-matic" (oops, you sell those don’t you?). I think using this newsgroup to flog your products is tacky. Doing it under the guise of helping people find their way in the game is double tacky, bordering on sleazy. That was my basic problem with your squelch and your subsequent offering. In fact it was my *only* problem. I don’t care if you think reading the Koran and eating pinecones is part of the "one true way". So you’ve shot a few rounds in the 70’s. That’s great, congratulations. Your game is a long way from making you the ultimate authority on who can benefit from what though. I’ve read tips in golf magazines that helped me greatly. And keep the BS about having a Clangomatic or any other goods for sale – out. Again, flogging your products is *tacky*. You know better and are trying to avoid the issue, by changing the subject to "Mike’s Secrets to Improvement". Blast away, as long you you shut up about Clangomatic or any other stuff you sell. This is a honourable game, where you call penalties on yourself. I think that should apply to this newsgroup too. Show some integrity and do it by eliminating the pointer to your business in your sig. Relying on the charter’s exemption is something only a lawyer would try to do – a golf business shouldn’t be advertised in a golf newsgroup, even in the signature area. My basic posture in the future will be to dump on *you* for spamming every time I see *anyone* getting dumped on for spamming because you are a "sneaky spammer", the worst kind. Other than that, I don’t intend to discuss this issue with you or anyone else anymore. Other things to do, ya know? (balance snipped). Drone on, Mike jmkanes
Mike has NEVER flogged his products here, He has never spammed here. He has encouraged more folks here to do their OWN club repairs than probably anyone. He has educated more folks in the golf community to get properly fit than anyone. He also contributes to more golf threads about various things than most anyone. You on the other hand have contributed nothing here that I remember.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – OK, got your attention, didn’t I? I’ve been accused on RSG, by someone with apparently less wisdom than ability to bang out thoughts thoughtlessly, that I "tried to put the squelch on discussions of golf mechanics, especially his crack about good golfers on the group not posting to those discussions." So I’m going to start up a thread about that again, this time using clearer language. I have a view on this, a view that I thought might actually help some whose goals in golf are similar to mine, i.e., to find out how good they can get. If you don’t share those goals with me, perhaps the best thing to do is mark this thread as "read" and ignore anything from here on out. This is not for those who lack the time and/or resources to work on their games to the extent I’ve been able to. I’m lucky that way–not everyone is. Or perhaps they enjoy the things I will warn against. If so, more power to them. RSG can be lots of things for lots of people, and why not? Nor is this for people who are satisfied with their games. Perhaps playing bogey golf 3 or 4 times per month is what you want out of the game. Again, if so, more power to you. I’m not trying to spoil your fun. But at the same time, I think there is a very interesting thing about RSG swing mechanics threads that I woke up to, and which wised me up about how I might improve. I figured this out after playing a lot with better golfers than I. I always like to see what they do, compare it to what I do, and then try to figure out why I’m making different choices than better golfers. My revelation about swing mechanics and RSG was this: You virtually never see the very best golfers on RSG contribute to swing mechanics threads. Ken Pitts, Mark Koenig (erstwhile RSG’er), Annika1980, Brad Greer–they don’t offer tips and hints about how to improve swing mechanics. Oh, Brad Greer will, in his inimitable way, ask questions about things people say, questions which expose the arguments as incomplete or wrong, but he’s not telling people the secret is this or that tip. David Laville (terrific ballstriker) contributes, but his commentary is almost always about the very technical side of swing mechanics, and more also along the line of explaining what’s wrong. So I began to wonder: Why do swing tips tend to come from higher handicappers, and not from the lower handicappers that populate RSG? What do the lower handicappers know that I don’t know? Why aren’t they telling us the secret to swinging? Interesting question, that. Like I did, do you wonder if you are looking in all the wrong places? My opinion is this: If you think you’re going to figure out how to swing from reading RSG, I predict you’re going to be disappointed, as I was. I’ve been posting on RSG for about 5 1/2 years; I love the RSG events I’ve been able to attend, the friends I’ve made, the conversations I’ve had. RSG has made golf more fun for me. But it hasn’t helped my swing much, with one exception: The advice to see a pro. I’ve tried tons of things over the years, advice, gadgets, and swing thoughts. Sometimes they’d help, temporarily. Only after a while did I realize they were mostly compensations for a bad swing, compensations that had built on top of compensations. The only thing that has lasted is the advice I got on the AJ Bonar tapes (advice that came from the tapes, BTW, not from RSG per se), but at least I heard about them here. And as far as that goes, the AJ advice likely is applicable to the swing flaws I have, not necessarily something that people can universally benefit from. I discovered that once I stopped looking for the quick fix, the secret, the obvious missing link in my swing, and started seeing a pro on a regular basis, my swing started to come around. I stopped reading the swing mechanics threads on RSG for the most part (except for a couple of people like David and Brad), and started down a path toward real improvement. I only want to hear one message, and that’s the message from my pro. It’s for this reason I don’t read golf magazines, at least, not anything related to the swing. I’ll read the general non-swing articles if I’m sitting in a waiting room, but I won’t subscribe to them–I’m too vulnerable to the tips! :) (Oh, I’ll backslide once in a while, but I’m only human. Usually I’ll recognize this quickly and stop looking at tips or swing threads before they do too much damage to me. Hopefully. Once I started doing this, my handicap dropped. It may have partly been the new mental framework this gave me–to stop looking for the quick fix, the big secret–which now had me looking for the little things, not the big things. The cumulative effect has been what has caused my index to drop to a low of 7.3 this year. Last Saturday I won our nooners group with a 74, took home a chunk of change as a result. This is something I could only have dreamed of two years ago. And a big reason is that I stopped reading the swing mechanics threads on RSG. Sure, that index dropped because of a lot of other things too–like mental game, course management–but without getting a more reliable swing, those other things are much harder to do. It’s hard to make birdies if you’re always 40 feet away! I have little doubt that there will be some who are offended by this. Some might decide I’m trying to tell them what to post about here. Nothing is further from the truth (as if I had the power to do that anyway). I fully have the power to ignore what they say, if I don’t want to read it. Come to think of it, I already do this. I virtually ignore the swing mechanics threads. Others might think I’m trying to take their fun away from them (whereas I made it clear above, more power to them). Still others might argue I’m putting down high handicappers, which I am not. Heck, I used to be one! But one thing I keep coming back to: I wish I knew then what I know now. And I’m not saying other threads don’t have importance. I think there are a lot of great threads that *are* helpful to playing the game on RSG: What to eat during a round, how to fight fatigue, mental game (and how!), course management, putting, short game stuff, clubmaking, and a dozen other things. This is an offering to those who are high handicappers, guys (and gals!) who really want to get their game to the single digit level, to a place where they break 80 regularly, and even threaten par, not on each hole, but over 18 of them. It’s my view of this, nothing more. Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads? Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way? Mike
As a response from someone you mentioned…..I like the swing mechanics threads, and I do participate in them. I try to point out, not mine, but staements from the Great teachers. In argueing, I’ll try to say that ‘ ledbetter says’, or ‘ Butch says’, or ‘Haney says’ in an effort to show a fallacy in someone elses’ thesis. Sometimes, I’ll share *my* opinion, but that is almost always a function of theory I’ve goten from someone else. In terms of swing mechanics, I have no knowledge in and of itself, just a bunch of things I’ve read from others’ work. DL, he knows a bunch. He really does.
Response:
:OK, got your attention, didn’t I? : :I’ve been accused on RSG, by someone with apparently less wisdom than :ability to bang out thoughts thoughtlessly, that I "tried to put the :squelch on discussions of golf mechanics, especially his crack about :good golfers on the group not posting to those discussions." I think you were giving the message that "good golfers" don’t post therefore if you post (on golf mechanics) you must be a hacker. That seems to me to be an fairly sophisticated effort to squelch discussion. Nobody wants to be labeled a "hacker" by implication. Better to listen to you discuss (undistracted by the lively swing mechanics threads) the *real* factors behind success on the course. Rotella (agree), lessons from a golf pro (agree) or the wondrous "Clang-o-matic" (oops, you sell those don’t you?). I think using this newsgroup to flog your products is tacky. Doing it under the guise of helping people find their way in the game is double tacky, bordering on sleazy. That was my basic problem with your squelch and your subsequent offering. In fact it was my *only* problem. I don’t care if you think reading the Koran and eating pinecones is part of the "one true way". So you’ve shot a few rounds in the 70’s. That’s great, congratulations. Your game is a long way from making you the ultimate authority on who can benefit from what though. I’ve read tips in golf magazines that helped me greatly. And keep the BS about having a Clangomatic or any other goods for sale – out. Again, flogging your products is *tacky*. You know better and are trying to avoid the issue, by changing the subject to "Mike’s Secrets to Improvement". Blast away, as long you you shut up about Clangomatic or any other stuff you sell. This is a honourable game, where you call penalties on yourself. I think that should apply to this newsgroup too. Show some integrity and do it by eliminating the pointer to your business in your sig. Relying on the charter’s exemption is something only a lawyer would try to do – a golf business shouldn’t be advertised in a golf newsgroup, even in the signature area. My basic posture in the future will be to dump on *you* for spamming every time I see *anyone* getting dumped on for spamming because you are a "sneaky spammer", the worst kind. Other than that, I don’t intend to discuss this issue with you or anyone else anymore. Other things to do, ya know? (balance snipped). Drone on, Mike jmkanes
Response:
I think your post was right on the mark. The reason is probably because a post on RSG really doesn’t tell you what is wrong with your swing. A swing needs to be seen to truely tell what is wrong. Look at a series of golf magazines and there are probably 50 ways to cure your slice. Pick the wrong ones and your game gets worse. So I am with you, take a series of lessons from a pro that you work well with and don’t read the tips section of golf magazines and your handicap will probably drop. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads? Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way?
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – great observations snipped Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads? Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way? Mike, I could not agree more. I quit reading any article that promised to "fix" any part of my game (slice, fade, hook, etc.) and gave up reading the mags. I do not read the swing mechanics threads except to scan them quickly to see what is really being talked about. Perhaps the reason we high-handicappers participate more is because we have faults in our swings that are more easily mended by online advice, whereas the better golfers need much finer adjustments than can be had without actual observation? It’s a lot easier to suggest a fix for someone whose problem is hitting the ball onto the adjacent fairway than for someone who’s driving onto the green and "just" wants to get closer to the hole. Eliyahu
I don’t doubt that high handicappers participate more because they need more help, but the question that I find interesting is why you don’t receive very many answers from the lowest handicappers? Why aren’t they helping? Could it be that they know they can’t, and the best way to deal with this is to see a pro? Mike — Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
Response:
great observations snipped Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads? Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way? Mike, I could not agree more. I quit reading any article that promised to "fix" any part of my game (slice, fade, hook, etc.) and gave up reading the mags. I do not read the swing mechanics threads except to scan them quickly to see what is really being talked about.
Perhaps the reason we high-handicappers participate more is because we have faults in our swings that are more easily mended by online advice, whereas the better golfers need much finer adjustments than can be had without actual observation? It’s a lot easier to suggest a fix for someone whose problem is hitting the ball onto the adjacent fairway than for someone who’s driving onto the green and "just" wants to get closer to the hole. Eliyahu
Response:
I have a 6 handicap. Is that low enough to offer swing mechanics adivice?
Low enough? You don’t even need a handicap to offer advice. Do what you will. The point of my original post is that low handicappers almost never offer such advice. You haven’t offered any before now, which kind of makes my point, doesn’t it? Mike Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
Response:
I have a 6 handicap. Is that low enough to offer swing mechanics adivice?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – great observations snipped Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads? Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way? Mike, I could not agree more. I quit reading any article that promised to "fix" any part of my game (slice, fade, hook, etc.) and gave up reading the mags. I do not read the swing mechanics threads except to scan them quickly to see what is really being talked about. I only listen to my pro, and it took me awhile to find the right one. She’s great for me. She sees things I had no clue I was doing (and many times, they are things I know I should not do – and thought I wasn’t) and she explains things to me in a way that I can immediately grasp the significance, I do not believe one can learn to make a good golf swing from reading. Sure, you can understand the swing better, learn the mechanics, be aware of the troubles you could face, and gain a good to excellent working knowledge of what makes a good swing. However, until you have a pro teaching you, individually, you cannot hope to discover the subtle (or not so subtle) flaws that keep you from making a good swing. Having the knowledge, and being able to execute are different things entirely. Good post, thanks. Rick
Response:
great observations snipped Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads? Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way?
Mike, I could not agree more. I quit reading any article that promised to "fix" any part of my game (slice, fade, hook, etc.) and gave up reading the mags. I do not read the swing mechanics threads except to scan them quickly to see what is really being talked about. I only listen to my pro, and it took me awhile to find the right one. She’s great for me. She sees things I had no clue I was doing (and many times, they are things I know I should not do – and thought I wasn’t) and she explains things to me in a way that I can immediately grasp the significance, I do not believe one can learn to make a good golf swing from reading. Sure, you can understand the swing better, learn the mechanics, be aware of the troubles you could face, and gain a good to excellent working knowledge of what makes a good swing. However, until you have a pro teaching you, individually, you cannot hope to discover the subtle (or not so subtle) flaws that keep you from making a good swing. Having the knowledge, and being able to execute are different things entirely. Good post, thanks. Rick
Response:
OK, got your attention, didn’t I? I’ve been accused on RSG, by someone with apparently less wisdom than ability to bang out thoughts thoughtlessly, that I "tried to put the squelch on discussions of golf mechanics, especially his crack about good golfers on the group not posting to those discussions." So I’m going to start up a thread about that again, this time using clearer language. I have a view on this, a view that I thought might actually help some whose goals in golf are similar to mine, i.e., to find out how good they can get. If you don’t share those goals with me, perhaps the best thing to do is mark this thread as "read" and ignore anything from here on out. This is not for those who lack the time and/or resources to work on their games to the extent I’ve been able to. I’m lucky that way–not everyone is. Or perhaps they enjoy the things I will warn against. If so, more power to them. RSG can be lots of things for lots of people, and why not? Nor is this for people who are satisfied with their games. Perhaps playing bogey golf 3 or 4 times per month is what you want out of the game. Again, if so, more power to you. I’m not trying to spoil your fun. But at the same time, I think there is a very interesting thing about RSG swing mechanics threads that I woke up to, and which wised me up about how I might improve. I figured this out after playing a lot with better golfers than I. I always like to see what they do, compare it to what I do, and then try to figure out why I’m making different choices than better golfers. My revelation about swing mechanics and RSG was this: You virtually never see the very best golfers on RSG contribute to swing mechanics threads. Ken Pitts, Mark Koenig (erstwhile RSG’er), Annika1980, Brad Greer–they don’t offer tips and hints about how to improve swing mechanics. Oh, Brad Greer will, in his inimitable way, ask questions about things people say, questions which expose the arguments as incomplete or wrong, but he’s not telling people the secret is this or that tip. David Laville (terrific ballstriker) contributes, but his commentary is almost always about the very technical side of swing mechanics, and more also along the line of explaining what’s wrong. So I began to wonder: Why do swing tips tend to come from higher handicappers, and not from the lower handicappers that populate RSG? What do the lower handicappers know that I don’t know? Why aren’t they telling us the secret to swinging? Interesting question, that. Like I did, do you wonder if you are looking in all the wrong places? My opinion is this: If you think you’re going to figure out how to swing from reading RSG, I predict you’re going to be disappointed, as I was. I’ve been posting on RSG for about 5 1/2 years; I love the RSG events I’ve been able to attend, the friends I’ve made, the conversations I’ve had. RSG has made golf more fun for me. But it hasn’t helped my swing much, with one exception: The advice to see a pro. I’ve tried tons of things over the years, advice, gadgets, and swing thoughts. Sometimes they’d help, temporarily. Only after a while did I realize they were mostly compensations for a bad swing, compensations that had built on top of compensations. The only thing that has lasted is the advice I got on the AJ Bonar tapes (advice that came from the tapes, BTW, not from RSG per se), but at least I heard about them here. And as far as that goes, the AJ advice likely is applicable to the swing flaws I have, not necessarily something that people can universally benefit from. I discovered that once I stopped looking for the quick fix, the secret, the obvious missing link in my swing, and started seeing a pro on a regular basis, my swing started to come around. I stopped reading the swing mechanics threads on RSG for the most part (except for a couple of people like David and Brad), and started down a path toward real improvement. I only want to hear one message, and that’s the message from my pro. It’s for this reason I don’t read golf magazines, at least, not anything related to the swing. I’ll read the general non-swing articles if I’m sitting in a waiting room, but I won’t subscribe to them–I’m too vulnerable to the tips! :) (Oh, I’ll backslide once in a while, but I’m only human. Usually I’ll recognize this quickly and stop looking at tips or swing threads before they do too much damage to me. Hopefully. Once I started doing this, my handicap dropped. It may have partly been the new mental framework this gave me–to stop looking for the quick fix, the big secret–which now had me looking for the little things, not the big things. The cumulative effect has been what has caused my index to drop to a low of 7.3 this year. Last Saturday I won our nooners group with a 74, took home a chunk of change as a result. This is something I could only have dreamed of two years ago. And a big reason is that I stopped reading the swing mechanics threads on RSG. Sure, that index dropped because of a lot of other things too–like mental game, course management–but without getting a more reliable swing, those other things are much harder to do. It’s hard to make birdies if you’re always 40 feet away! I have little doubt that there will be some who are offended by this. Some might decide I’m trying to tell them what to post about here. Nothing is further from the truth (as if I had the power to do that anyway). I fully have the power to ignore what they say, if I don’t want to read it. Come to think of it, I already do this. I virtually ignore the swing mechanics threads. Others might think I’m trying to take their fun away from them (whereas I made it clear above, more power to them). Still others might argue I’m putting down high handicappers, which I am not. Heck, I used to be one! But one thing I keep coming back to: I wish I knew then what I know now. And I’m not saying other threads don’t have importance. I think there are a lot of great threads that *are* helpful to playing the game on RSG: What to eat during a round, how to fight fatigue, mental game (and how!), course management, putting, short game stuff, clubmaking, and a dozen other things. This is an offering to those who are high handicappers, guys (and gals!) who really want to get their game to the single digit level, to a place where they break 80 regularly, and even threaten par, not on each hole, but over 18 of them. It’s my view of this, nothing more. Just think about that question: Why don’t the lowest handicappers contribute to swing mechanics threads? Could it be because they don’t believe you’re going to learn a swing that way? Mike Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!