Question:
There are none so blind as those who choose not to see. How true that we carve our own salvation. We are never condemned. We choose our victories and failures, hence create our own prisons. Just what in the hell has your idea of how we "should" approach life’s lessons have to do with the issue before you.
It’s OK, Rick. It’s getting close to Easter, favourite season for martyrs. Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Response:
As Tonto said to the Lone Ranger when surrounded by Indians: What you mean "We" ? Not all of us, or even most of us I would guess started as children. There, however, is simply no substitute for talent. Look at the golfers who never played until late in their lives and became champions. e. g. Larry Nelson, Babe Zaharias. So maybe you have some talent, and others don’t. And you are trying to say that we should just use our natural swing, which does not exist. Give it a rest.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill- your point is well taken. Not all children will instinctively pick up on good mechanics. Many will, however; it is the way we learned golf as children 50 years ago – by being caddies and copying what instincts recognized. I had a great swing as a kid; my problems were other than swing; they were logistical about ball position, alignment, depth control, etc… But I didn’t have a clue what I was doing, and that won’t work for adults trying to score… GH Greg: in a "finished-learned" swing all the forces blend into a seamless whole. A good swing becomes "nothing" – a glend of forces in which self conscious evaporates. Do you feel forces of various kinds when walking? or riding a bike? I rather think you do those things without self conscious exertions. Same with a good swing. Exuberate – like the 6-year o ld trying to hit a home run. He has no mechanical thoughts because his brain knows more than he does and IT is governing the whole magilla. I’ll say it again. Most 6 year olds have lousy baseball swings. Some of them do have a lot of "exuberance", as you say, but most of them also lunge at the ball and cast. I watched a group of kids at the cages today, and it wasn’t pretty. I could sure tell the ones that had taken lessons and practiced technique. Sure, you had better have technique cold by the time you are in a game situation and facing live pitching so you can concentrate just on hitting the ball, but to get there requires a lot of practice time with attention to details. When I use that image, I do not mean the very first day of a 6-year old – I am talking about a child who has played with a bat without instruction but with enthusiasm and passion. There is a child across the street from me whose older brother is in NC on a baseball scholarship. The boy is 9, weighs 68 lbs, and has a baseball uniform he wears every other day, a baseball hanging on a tree, and a bat he uses out there 1/2 hour at a time for several days a month. He has A GORGEOUS golf/baseball swing needing no instruction other than "it’s a low pitch". I know this because a day last year I asked him if he’d like to hit golf balls once; he agreed (first time, using a shortened 7 iron) and immediately (10 minutes) had decent impact and a perfect golf swing. ZERO instruction. Using that "heavy bat" he did for so long a period ingrained perfect golf mechanics into his instincts and athleticism, so that without anyone ever telling him anything about timing, rotation, plane, wristcock, or any detail whatsoever, he just plain knows exactly what to do for good swing. He obviously will require information about trajectory, ball position, alignment, and stuff for actual play of the game of golf, but golfSWING is his forever, without ever a word of how to do it. What I know is that "our brains know more than we do" and finding instinctive harmony is the path to a great swing. As adults we need help getting on that path. When we are, it becomes a seamless and blended whole unit in which we come to experience no particular exertion but more of a general exuberance as experienced and demonstrated BY this untrained child I speak of. George, having been involved in youth baseball & fastpitch softball for 10 years both as a parent, and for a while as a coach, I can tell you that it is extremely rare to find a good hitter that hasn’t had help. A lot of parents like to brag that their kids have natural talent and the kid picked it all up on their own, and in the next breath are shouting at junior to keep his elbow up. It seems quite likely that this dad, who after all raised another son who is playing college ball, may have helped junior more than he admits. I also know that baseball skills tend to run in families. It is rare for a young phenom like your neighbor to come out of a family where there are no parents or older siblings that have played the game. The baseball swing, like the golf swing, is an unnatural act. Left to figure it out on their own, most kids make wrong guesses, and end up lunging, casting, stepping in the bucket, spinning out, dropping their shoulder, swinging up on the ball, pulling their head out… well, you name it. It takes someone (a coach, parent, brother, friend, etc) to say at critical times, "You are doing this…, do it more like this…". I agree that the kid is probably not thinking mechanical thoughts while he is swinging (unless he is practicing something). However, it took some molding, however subtle, to get him to that state. I also agree that a lot of athletic principles are common to both games, and it wouldn’t surprise me at all that a kid with a sound baseball swing would pick up the golf swing easily. As another anecdote, my daughter, who plays high school fastpitch softball, hit a home run, 2 triples, and a double (as well as several singles) in the course of 4 games last week. I attribute that directly to the fact that she is taking hitting lessons and working hard on fixing her mechanics in practice. We tried the no lesson, exuberance route before, and it didn’t work out nearly as well.
Response:
Lately you seem to spend more time covering your tracks than exploring new trails. Do you have any other diagnoses for my self image Dr?
If you feel put down, Brad, that tells a lot about your self image. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are none so blind as those who choose not to see. Of course any sophist can poke holes in any truth. Because their agenda is NOT to see the truth spoken, but to dispute. Rick, David, and all who malign Larry Whitaker’s STC, GH’s law of the pendulum, instinctive gifts of athletic ability, and other truths of golf and life, get a life. Go learn to think "outside of the box" — what is called intuitive thought. Put away your toys, get a high school reading comprehension extension course for home-study, and grow up. Stop imagining that your petty world of ABC is all there is to thought, to life, to communcation, to logic, and to reality. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet I, v, 166. So many things some of you find fault with are because you FAIL TO SEE the message. So, failing to understand, you have no choice but to put down or deny the message. It actually leaves you impoverished, and that is a pity. Why not read with an open mind, LISTEN and possibly hear something NEW THAT YOU DIDN’T KNOW BEFORE! It may surprise you. Of course by denial OF anything new you can justify your stagnation as the nature of things. How true that we carve our own salvation. We are never condemned. We choose our victories and failures, hence create our own prisons. George Hibbard
Response:
When George is wrong he can’t stand it. Instead of staying on topic–he criticises the messengers. Just an extension of his previous statements making fun of minorities.
If you feel put down, Brad, that tells a lot about your self image. My comments copied below are about "how to think" – and how the limitations of many people TO think are self imposed. When an ABSTRACT concept is used to describe something and the reader has no context FOR the abstract, it is not really appropriate to deny the validity of the abstract as many try to do. It is simply DIFFERENT. So there is no putdown or insult or "can’t stand it" whatsoever in the post. Shakespeare said it so well – reread his HamlettoPolonius line. Intuitive, abstract, logical, etc. – these are different than concrete and visible. George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are none so blind as those who choose not to see. Of course any sophist can poke holes in any truth. Because their agenda is NOT to see the truth spoken, but to dispute. Rick, David, and all who malign Larry Whitaker’s STC, GH’s law of the pendulum, instinctive gifts of athletic ability, and other truths of golf and life, get a life. Go learn to think "outside of the box" — what is called intuitive thought. Put away your toys, get a high school reading comprehension extension course for home-study, and grow up. Stop imagining that your petty world of ABC is all there is to thought, to life, to communcation, to logic, and to reality. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet I, v, 166. So many things some of you find fault with are because you FAIL TO SEE the message. So, failing to understand, you have no choice but to put down or deny the message. It actually leaves you impoverished, and that is a pity. Why not read with an open mind, LISTEN and possibly hear something NEW THAT YOU DIDN’T KNOW BEFORE! It may surprise you. Of course by denial OF anything new you can justify your stagnation as the nature of things. How true that we carve our own salvation. We are never condemned. We choose our victories and failures, hence create our own prisons. George Hibbard
Response:
When George is wrong he can’t stand it. Instead of staying on topic–he criticises the messengers. Just an extension of his previous statements making fun of minorities. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are none so blind as those who choose not to see. Of course any sophist can poke holes in any truth. Because their agenda is NOT to see the truth spoken, but to dispute. Rick, David, and all who malign Larry Whitaker’s STC, GH’s law of the pendulum, instinctive gifts of athletic ability, and other truths of golf and life, get a life. Go learn to think "outside of the box" — what is called intuitive thought. Put away your toys, get a high school reading comprehension extension course for home-study, and grow up. Stop imagining that your petty world of ABC is all there is to thought, to life, to communcation, to logic, and to reality. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet I, v, 166. So many things some of you find fault with are because you FAIL TO SEE the message. So, failing to understand, you have no choice but to put down or deny the message. It actually leaves you impoverished, and that is a pity. Why not read with an open mind, LISTEN and possibly hear something NEW THAT YOU DIDN’T KNOW BEFORE! It may surprise you. Of course by denial OF anything new you can justify your stagnation as the nature of things. How true that we carve our own salvation. We are never condemned. We choose our victories and failures, hence create our own prisons. George Hibbard
Response:
Bill- your point is well taken. Not all children will instinctively pick up on good mechanics. Many will, however; it is the way we learned golf as children 50 years ago – by being caddies and copying what instincts recognized. I had a great swing as a kid; my problems were other than swing; they were logistical about ball position, alignment, depth control, etc… But I didn’t have a clue what I was doing, and that won’t work for adults trying to score… GH
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greg: in a "finished-learned" swing all the forces blend into a seamless whole. A good swing becomes "nothing" – a glend of forces in which self conscious evaporates. Do you feel forces of various kinds when walking? or riding a bike? I rather think you do those things without self conscious exertions. Same with a good swing. Exuberate – like the 6-year old trying to hit a home run. He has no mechanical thoughts because his brain knows more than he does and IT is governing the whole magilla. I’ll say it again. Most 6 year olds have lousy baseball swings. Some of them do have a lot of "exuberance", as you say, but most of them also lunge at the ball and cast. I watched a group of kids at the cages today, and it wasn’t pretty. I could sure tell the ones that had taken lessons and practiced technique. Sure, you had better have technique cold by the time you are in a game situation and facing live pitching so you can concentrate just on hitting the ball, but to get there requires a lot of practice time with attention to details. When I use that image, I do not mean the very first day of a 6-year old – I am talking about a child who has played with a bat without instruction but with enthusiasm and passion. There is a child across the street from me whose older brother is in NC on a baseball scholarship. The boy is 9, weighs 68 lbs, and has a baseball uniform he wears every other day, a baseball hanging on a tree, and a bat he uses out there 1/2 hour at a time for several days a month. He has A GORGEOUS golf/baseball swing needing no instruction other than "it’s a low pitch". I know this because a day last year I asked him if he’d like to hit golf balls once; he agreed (first time, using a shortened 7 iron) and immediately (10 minutes) had decent impact and a perfect golf swing. ZERO instruction. Using that "heavy bat" he did for so long a period ingrained perfect golf mechanics into his instincts and athleticism, so that without anyone ever telling him anything about timing, rotation, plane, wristcock, or any detail whatsoever, he just plain knows exactly what to do for good swing. He obviously will require information about trajectory, ball position, alignment, and stuff for actual play of the game of golf, but golfSWING is his forever, without ever a word of how to do it. What I know is that "our brains know more than we do" and finding instinctive harmony is the path to a great swing. As adults we need help getting on that path. When we are, it becomes a seamless and blended whole unit in which we come to experience no particular exertion but more of a general exuberance as experienced and demonstrated BY this untrained child I speak of. George, having been involved in youth baseball & fastpitch softball for 10 years both as a parent, and for a while as a coach, I can tell you that it is extremely rare to find a good hitter that hasn’t had help. A lot of parents like to brag that their kids have natural talent and the kid picked it all up on their own, and in the next breath are shouting at junior to keep his elbow up. It seems quite likely that this dad, who after all raised another son who is playing college ball, may have helped junior more than he admits. I also know that baseball skills tend to run in families. It is rare for a young phenom like your neighbor to come out of a family where there are no parents or older siblings that have played the game. The baseball swing, like the golf swing, is an unnatural act. Left to figure it out on their own, most kids make wrong guesses, and end up lunging, casting, stepping in the bucket, spinning out, dropping their shoulder, swinging up on the ball, pulling their head out… well, you name it. It takes someone (a coach, parent, brother, friend, etc) to say at critical times, "You are doing this…, do it more like this…". I agree that the kid is probably not thinking mechanical thoughts while he is swinging (unless he is practicing something). However, it took some molding, however subtle, to get him to that state. I also agree that a lot of athletic principles are common to both games, and it wouldn’t surprise me at all that a kid with a sound baseball swing would pick up the golf swing easily. As another anecdote, my daughter, who plays high school fastpitch softball, hit a home run, 2 triples, and a double (as well as several singles) in the course of 4 games last week. I attribute that directly to the fact that she is taking hitting lessons and working hard on fixing her mechanics in practice. We tried the no lesson, exuberance route before, and it didn’t work out nearly as well.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greg: in a "finished-learned" swing all the forces blend into a seamless whole. A good swing becomes "nothing" – a glend of forces in which self conscious evaporates. Do you feel forces of various kinds when walking? or riding a bike? I rather think you do those things without self conscious exertions. Same with a good swing. Exuberate – like the 6-year old trying to hit a home run. He has no mechanical thoughts because his brain knows more than he does and IT is governing the whole magilla. I’ll say it again. Most 6 year olds have lousy baseball swings. Some of them do have a lot of "exuberance", as you say, but most of them also lunge at the ball and cast. I watched a group of kids at the cages today, and it wasn’t pretty. I could sure tell the ones that had taken lessons and practiced technique. Sure, you had better have technique cold by the time you are in a game situation and facing live pitching so you can concentrate just on hitting the ball, but to get there requires a lot of practice time with attention to details. When I use that image, I do not mean the very first day of a 6-year old – I am talking about a child who has played with a bat without instruction but with enthusiasm and passion. There is a child across the street from me whose older brother is in NC on a baseball scholarship. The boy is 9, weighs 68 lbs, and has a baseball uniform he wears every other day, a baseball hanging on a tree, and a bat he uses out there 1/2 hour at a time for several days a month. He has A GORGEOUS golf/baseball swing needing no instruction other than "it’s a low pitch". I know this because a day last year I asked him if he’d like to hit golf balls once; he agreed (first time, using a shortened 7 iron) and immediately (10 minutes) had decent impact and a perfect golf swing. ZERO instruction. Using that "heavy bat" he did for so long a period ingrained perfect golf mechanics into his instincts and athleticism, so that without anyone ever telling him anything about timing, rotation, plane, wristcock, or any detail whatsoever, he just plain knows exactly what to do for good swing. He obviously will require information about trajectory, ball position, alignment, and stuff for actual play of the game of golf, but golfSWING is his forever, without ever a word of how to do it. What I know is that "our brains know more than we do" and finding instinctive harmony is the path to a great swing. As adults we need help getting on that path. When we are, it becomes a seamless and blended whole unit in which we come to experience no particular exertion but more of a general exuberance as experienced and demonstrated BY this untrained child I speak of.
George, having been involved in youth baseball & fastpitch softball for 10 years both as a parent, and for a while as a coach, I can tell you that it is extremely rare to find a good hitter that hasn’t had help. A lot of parents like to brag that their kids have natural talent and the kid picked it all up on their own, and in the next breath are shouting at junior to keep his elbow up. It seems quite likely that this dad, who after all raised another son who is playing college ball, may have helped junior more than he admits. I also know that baseball skills tend to run in families. It is rare for a young phenom like your neighbor to come out of a family where there are no parents or older siblings that have played the game. The baseball swing, like the golf swing, is an unnatural act. Left to figure it out on their own, most kids make wrong guesses, and end up lunging, casting, stepping in the bucket, spinning out, dropping their shoulder, swinging up on the ball, pulling their head out… well, you name it. It takes someone (a coach, parent, brother, friend, etc) to say at critical times, "You are doing this…, do it more like this…". I agree that the kid is probably not thinking mechanical thoughts while he is swinging (unless he is practicing something). However, it took some molding, however subtle, to get him to that state. I also agree that a lot of athletic principles are common to both games, and it wouldn’t surprise me at all that a kid with a sound baseball swing would pick up the golf swing easily. As another anecdote, my daughter, who plays high school fastpitch softball, hit a home run, 2 triples, and a double (as well as several singles) in the course of 4 games last week. I attribute that directly to the fact that she is taking hitting lessons and working hard on fixing her mechanics in practice. We tried the no lesson, exuberance route before, and it didn’t work out nearly as well.
Response:
Rick I coach LL Baseball. Most kids are not real good but can progress well if shown a few basics. The ones who are good are the ones who practice and play outside with big brothers or dads. My little guy is an AllStar–I plated professionally a long time ago and I show him a few things. It’s not a natural thing, it’s learned by kids who wnat to know and practice. My lttle guy walks around the house with his bat in his hands. He just loves it and practices. Brad – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snip Let me get this straight; 9 year old boy with brother on collage baseball team, boy also has his own bat, and uniform, and you are trying to tell us that he has had no instruction. I find that hard to believe… I would think the parents, and brother have spent time with the boy. I would also guess the boy has been to many baseball games in his short life time. I would also guess he has watched many baseball games on TV. Maybe you don’t see these as instructions, I don’t know. I guess it would be possible that the boy found the bat, and his family totally ignores him. Maybe they are spending all thier time at NC watching the other son play Baseball. Maybe the 9 year old doesen’t know it, but I would bet money that he has had instruction! Larry Not according to his father. They live 150 feet from my front door. And prior to our session he had never even had a golf club in his hand. George, I believe he question was about baseball. Tough shit if he hadn’t had a golf club in his hand. What about that damn baseball bat? The one he swung so exuberantly? My point is that the innate "how to exert" and timing of release is going to be discovered naturally by children in the sheer exuberance of trying to "hit home runs" snip I think you are full of bull shit. It is easy to say, but you cannot back this up with one shred of solid evidence. You have only anecdotal evidence which is worth about as much as free advice. I’ve seen many (no, most) kids make attempts to hit a baseball (on a tee even) and fail miserably because they could not get all the parts working together. Look for another example George, we found this one to be lacking in credibility. Rick Rider Roll call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=riderr The RSG FAQ can be seen at: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html I took the RSG 2002 Pledge to not encourage trolls. SPAM intolerant – Troll intolerant Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don’t.
Response:
There are no "good days and bad days" riding a bike. Sure there are. I rode 100 miles in under five hours and still felt good at the end. Are you training for the Olympics? I’ve been riding my bike 10 miles a day getting ready for my Grand Canyon trip and it takes me 45-50 minutes. I thought I was moving at a good pace but you would lap me.
That was 10 years and about 60 pounds ago!! Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary Never Forget: http://www.politicsandprotest.org RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd
Response:
There are none so blind as those who choose not to see. Of course any sophist can poke holes in any truth. Because their agenda is NOT to see the truth spoken, but to dispute. Rick, David, and all who malign Larry Whitaker’s STC, GH’s law of the pendulum, instinctive gifts of athletic ability, and other truths of golf and life, get a life. Go learn to think "outside of the box" — what is called intuitive thought. Put away your toys, get a high school reading comprehension extension course for home-study, and grow up. Stop imagining that your petty world of ABC is all there is to thought, to life, to communcation, to logic, and to reality. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet I, v, 166. So many things some of you find fault with are because you FAIL TO SEE the message. So, failing to understand, you have no choice but to put down or deny the message. It actually leaves you impoverished, and that is a pity. Why not read with an open mind, LISTEN and possibly hear something NEW THAT YOU DIDN’T KNOW BEFORE! It may surprise you. Of course by denial OF anything new you can justify your stagnation as the nature of things. How true that we carve our own salvation. We are never condemned. We choose our victories and failures, hence create our own prisons. George Hibbard
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snip Let me get this straight; 9 year old boy with brother on collage baseball team, boy also has his own bat, and uniform, and you are trying to tell us that he has had no instruction. I find that hard to believe… I would think the parents, and brother have spent time with the boy. I would also guess the boy has been to many baseball games in his short life time. I would also guess he has watched many baseball games on TV. Maybe you don’t see these as instructions, I don’t know. I guess it would be possible that the boy found the bat, and his family totally ignores him. Maybe they are spending all thier time at NC watching the other son play Baseball. Maybe the 9 year old doesen’t know it, but I would bet money that he has had instruction! Larry Not according to his father. They live 150 feet from my front door. And prior to our session he had never even had a golf club in his hand. George, I believe he question was about baseball. Tough shit if he hadn’t had a golf club in his hand. What about that damn baseball bat? The one he swung so exuberantly? My point is that the innate "how to exert" and timing of release is going to be discovered naturally by children in the sheer exuberance of trying to "hit home runs" snip I think you are full of bull shit. It is easy to say, but you cannot back this up with one shred of solid evidence.
THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT. YOUR LOGIC IS THAT GOD DOESN’T EXIST EITHER BECAUSE THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC PROOF. GREAT MIND, RICK. GOOD LUCK IN LIFE.! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You have only anecdotal evidence which is worth about as much as free advice. I’ve seen many (no, most) kids make attempts to hit a baseball (on a tee even) and fail miserably because they could not get all the parts working together. Look for another example George, we found this one to be lacking in credibility. Rick Rider Roll call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=riderr The RSG FAQ can be seen at: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html I took the RSG 2002 Pledge to not encourage trolls. SPAM intolerant – Troll intolerant Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don’t.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greg: in a "finished-learned" swing all the forces blend into a seamless whole. A good swing becomes "nothing" – a glend of forces in which self conscious evaporates. Do you feel forces of various kinds when walking? or riding a bike? I rather think you do those things without self conscious exertions. Same with a good swing. Exuberate – like the 6-year old trying to hit a home run. He has no mechanical thoughts because his brain knows more than he does and IT is governing the whole magilla. I’ll say it again. Most 6 year olds have lousy baseball swings. Some of them do have a lot of "exuberance", as you say, but most of them also lunge at the ball and cast. I watched a group of kids at the cages today, and it wasn’t pretty. I could sure tell the ones that had taken lessons and practiced technique. Sure, you had better have technique cold by the time you are in a game situation and facing live pitching so you can concentrate just on hitting the ball, but to get there requires a lot of practice time with attention to details. When I use that image, I do not mean the very first day of a 6-year old – I am talking about a child who has played with a bat without instruction but with enthusiasm and passion. There is a child across the street from me whose older brother is in NC on a baseball scholarship. The boy is 9, weighs 68 lbs, and has a baseball uniform he wears every other day, a baseball hanging on a tree, and a bat he uses out there 1/2 hour at a time for several days a month. GH Let me get this straight; 9 year old boy with brother on collage baseball team, boy also has his own bat, and uniform, and you are trying to tell us that he has had no instruction. I find that hard to believe… I would think the parents, and brother have spent time with the boy. I would also guess the boy has been to many baseball games in his short life time. I would also guess he has watched many baseball games on TV. Maybe you don’t see these as instructions, I don’t know. I guess it would be possible that the boy found the bat, and his family totally ignores him. Maybe they are spending all thier time at NC watching the other son play Baseball. Maybe the 9 year old doesen’t know it, but I would bet money that he has had instruction! Larry
Not according to his father. They live 150 feet from my front door. And prior to our session he had never even had a golf club in his hand. My point is that the innate "how to exert" and timing of release is going to be discovered naturally by children in the sheer exuberance of trying to "hit home runs" because it forces their young bodies to use body turn strength – legs – torso, instead of weak hands and arms, hence they grow into physics-perfect swingers more easily and naturally than "intelligent, contrived golfers" such as The Golf Channel’s student whom is trying to "break 90" under Dean Reinmuth, I think it is. The golfer’s swing is wholly contrived – he is imitating or trying to "do" the shape of swing that Dean is teaching him, but his innate mechanisms are non-responsive to the club, hence his contriving is a long ways from the correct/efficient mechanics of my neighborboy. Until he is taken back TO his innate athleticism, he will not succeed. He may punch his way around the golf course in under 90, but he won’t look like a golfer doing it, as we know "good swings" look. George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greg: in a "finished-learned" swing all the forces blend into a seamless whole. A good swing becomes "nothing" – a glend of forces in which self conscious evaporates. Do you feel forces of various kinds when walking? or riding a bike? I rather think you do those things without self conscious exertions. Same with a good swing. Exuberate – like the 6-year old trying to hit a home run. He has no mechanical thoughts because his brain knows more than he does and IT is governing the whole magilla. I’ll say it again. Most 6 year olds have lousy baseball swings. Some of them do have a lot of "exuberance", as you say, but most of them also lunge at the ball and cast. I watched a group of kids at the cages today, and it wasn’t pretty. I could sure tell the ones that had taken lessons and practiced technique. Sure, you had better have technique cold by the time you are in a game situation and facing live pitching so you can concentrate just on hitting the ball, but to get there requires a lot of practice time with attention to details. When I use that image, I do not mean the very first day of a 6-year old – I am talking about a child who has played with a bat without instruction but with enthusiasm and passion. There is a child across the street from me whose older brother is in NC on a baseball scholarship. The boy is 9, weighs 68 lbs, and has a baseball uniform he wears every other day, a baseball hanging on a tree, and a bat he uses out there 1/2 hour at a time for several days a month. GH
Let me get this straight; 9 year old boy with brother on collage baseball team, boy also has his own bat, and uniform, and you are trying to tell us that he has had no instruction. I find that hard to believe… I would think the parents, and brother have spent time with the boy. I would also guess the boy has been to many baseball games in his short life time. I would also guess he has watched many baseball games on TV. Maybe you don’t see these as instructions, I don’t know. I guess it would be possible that the boy found the bat, and his family totally ignores him. Maybe they are spending all thier time at NC watching the other son play Baseball. Maybe the 9 year old doesen’t know it, but I would bet money that he has had instruction! Larry
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greg: in a "finished-learned" swing all the forces blend into a seamless whole. A good swing becomes "nothing" – a glend of forces in which self conscious evaporates. Do you feel forces of various kinds when walking? or riding a bike? I rather think you do those things without self conscious exertions. Same with a good swing. Exuberate – like the 6-year old trying to hit a home run. He has no mechanical thoughts because his brain knows more than he does and IT is governing the whole magilla. I’ll say it again. Most 6 year olds have lousy baseball swings. Some of them do have a lot of "exuberance", as you say, but most of them also lunge at the ball and cast. I watched a group of kids at the cages today, and it wasn’t pretty. I could sure tell the ones that had taken lessons and practiced technique. Sure, you had better have technique cold by the time you are in a game situation and facing live pitching so you can concentrate just on hitting the ball, but to get there requires a lot of practice time with attention to details.
When I use that image, I do not mean the very first day of a 6-year old – I am talking about a child who has played with a bat without instruction but with enthusiasm and passion. There is a child across the street from me whose older brother is in NC on a baseball scholarship. The boy is 9, weighs 68 lbs, and has a baseball uniform he wears every other day, a baseball hanging on a tree, and a bat he uses out there 1/2 hour at a time for several days a month. He has A GORGEOUS golf/baseball swing needing no instruction other than "it’s a low pitch". I know this because a day last year I asked him if he’d like to hit golf balls once; he agreed (first time, using a shortened 7 iron) and immediately (10 minutes) had decent impact and a perfect golf swing. ZERO instruction. Using that "heavy bat" he did for so long a period ingrained perfect golf mechanics into his instincts and athleticism, so that without anyone ever telling him anything about timing, rotation, plane, wristcock, or any detail whatsoever, he just plain knows exactly what to do for good swing. He obviously will require information about trajectory, ball position, alignment, and stuff for actual play of the game of golf, but golfSWING is his forever, without ever a word of how to do it. What I know is that "our brains know more than we do" and finding instinctive harmony is the path to a great swing. As adults we need help getting on that path. When we are, it becomes a seamless and blended whole unit in which we come to experience no particular exertion but more of a general exuberance as experienced and demonstrated BY this untrained child I speak of. GH
Response:
There are no "good days and bad days" riding a bike. Sure there are. I rode 100 miles in under five hours and still felt good at the end.
Are you training for the Olympics? I’ve been riding my bike 10 miles a day getting ready for my Grand Canyon trip and it takes me 45-50 minutes. I thought I was moving at a good pace but you would lap me. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor Contributor of spam free golf advice
Response:
In a previous post, I chronicled lesson 4 of 5, which focussed on shortening my backswing. This is accomplished by not allowing my hands to be above the plane of my shoulder, on the backswing. It feels like a half swing, but in reality (confirme by video) it’s a full swing. I’ve had outstanding results with my irons….my accuracy has been best ever. The driver and 3w is another matter. Shortening my backswing with these clubs have produced a very closed clubface at impact, translating into severe duckhooks.
Caused by over acceleration. You’re trying to regain clubhead speed lost to the shorter backswing. The cause is that my hands are moving faster than my hips, where before with the overswing, the hips had time to clear.
Exactly, the shorter the acceleration distance the faster acceleration time you need to equal what you had before. This is why your hands are out running your hips. Two tips I’ve heard….one says to lead with the hips…..the other says to lead with the left shoulder, which causes the hips to follow. I know I have serious difficulty focusing on the hips on the downturn….it feels like my hands gets lost in the lag, resulting in wild sprays. I have no clue, feeling-wise, how to lead with the left shoulder. Thoughts?
Lead with the hips! If you lead with the left shoulder you’re by passing the tension between the hips and shoulders. In the meantime, I’m using two swings…..one for the irons and a overswing for the driver. One gets me on the greens….the other gets me somewhere near the fairway.
The only difference between the swing for a driver and the swing for irons is ball position. It’s hard enough to learn one swing, why learn two? David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor Contributor of spam free golf advice
Response:
Greg: in a "finished-learned" swing all the forces blend into a seamless whole. A good swing becomes "nothing" – a glend of forces in which self conscious evaporates. Do you feel forces of various kinds when walking? or riding a bike? I rather think you do those things without self conscious exertions. Same with a good swing. Exuberate – like the 6-year old trying to hit a home run. He has no mechanical thoughts because his brain knows more than he does and IT is governing the whole magilla.
I’ll say it again. Most 6 year olds have lousy baseball swings. Some of them do have a lot of "exuberance", as you say, but most of them also lunge at the ball and cast. I watched a group of kids at the cages today, and it wasn’t pretty. I could sure tell the ones that had taken lessons and practiced technique. Sure, you had better have technique cold by the time you are in a game situation and facing live pitching so you can concentrate just on hitting the ball, but to get there requires a lot of practice time with attention to details.
Response:
There are no "good days and bad days" riding a bike.
Sure there are. I rode 100 miles in under five hours and still felt good at the end. OTOH, I’ve done 60 mile rides where I thought the finish line was NEVER going to show up. It happens. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary Never Forget: http://www.politicsandprotest.org RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd
Response:
Well…ok. My girlfriend ran into a parked truck, which put her in the hospital for a month. That was a bad day. -Greg
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are no "good days and bad days" riding a bike. Sure there are. I rode 100 miles in under five hours and still felt good at the end. OTOH, I’ve done 60 mile rides where I thought the finish line was NEVER going to show up. It happens. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary Never Forget: http://www.politicsandprotest.org RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greg: in a "finished-learned" swing all the forces blend into a seamless whole. A good swing becomes "nothing" – a glend of forces in which self conscious evaporates. Do you feel forces of various kinds when walking? or riding a bike? I rather think you do those things without self conscious exertions. Same with a good swing. Exuberate – like the 6-year old trying to hit a home run. He has no mechanical thoughts because his brain knows more than he does and IT is governing the whole magilla. George, I have trouble equating riding a bike with the intricacy of the golf swing. I know plenty about bike riding, having rode all over Oregon. There are no "good days and bad days" riding a bike. The golf swing, even experienced by the pros, is quite subject to error. I like the ideal of "swinging without not having to think about it" but I don’t have a solid, repeatable swing yet. This is why I must practice, and continue learning…diagnosing…..trying….failing…..occasionally succeeding. VERY glad you’ve said this, Greg, because such a swing is the product of some "mechanical" stuff that does NOT require a lifetime to get right. It is something which, once found and UNDERSTOOD COGNITIVIELY is ALREADY THERE for you to use. When you feel or swing out of sorts it is because of a lack of the cognitive controls, not because you are "out of the zone." Many people believe and write as though a good swing is the result of some kind of self hypnosis or zonal miasma. I teach and maintain that it its seed and establishment in your brain is an IMMEDIATE and cognitive act which when executed VERY SIMPLY (in a few seconds by the book) then DOES establish the harmony and zonal mental state by itself. The thinking involved is PRIOR TO THE SHOT; ball position, alignment, posture, grip strength, etc. BUT THE SWING IS THEN MADE WITHOUT THE NEED FOR ANY MUSCLE MEMORY - the caveat of that being only if you have not built into your procedure deliberate or subconscious impulsive compensations from long using a hitting/forcing/manipulation procedure. Bad habits are harder to break OF THAT KIND than establishing a golfer from scratch. I insist that it is easier and quicker to proficiency than what I sense you are experiencing. FWIW. George
Much of what you said sounds similar to "Swing the Clubhead." What are the distinctions between it and your teachings? -Greg
Response:
I find that when I lead with my shoulder, bad things happen. When I lead with my hips, I enter some kind of Nirvana in which I make long, straight drives and hit a lot of greens. The problem I constantly have is not moving my center of balance. For me, and movement of the shoulders causes my center of balance to shift, especially on the downswing, but if I just turn my hips, my center of balance doesn’t move. I don’t have this problem when I ride a bike because my center of balance is fixed by having my feet on the pedals (if nothing else) and my butt in the seat. The problem I have with the bike is that to grip the club, I have to take my hands off the handlebars, and it gets tough to steer. I’m not bad at it, but if the front tire of the bike hits anything at any angle to the direction the bike is moving, there is an angular force generated that forces the front wheel of the bike to turn sharply in one direction or another, causing me to go over the top. Rob — Service is the rent we pay for being RSG Masters 2002 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS_02.html ) RSG Masters 2003 ( http://home.att.net/~janellenrob/RSG-MS-03P.html )
Response:
Two tips I’ve heard….one says to lead with the hips…..the other says to lead with the left shoulder, which causes the hips to follow. I know I have serious difficulty focusing on the hips on the downturn….it feels like my hands gets lost in the lag, resulting in wild sprays. I have no clue, feeling-wise, how to lead with the left shoulder. Thoughts? In the meantime, I’m using two swings…..one for the irons and a overswing for the driver. One gets me on the greens….the other gets me somewhere near the fairway.
Greg, Your arms reach back, the target-side arm across your chest. If you have kept your lower body still, the tension your reach puts on the front shoulder should have brought your hips and leg in at the very end. You’re at the top. The tension that brought your hip and leg in last plays a very important physical role. If you start forward with the shoulder, the tension (flex, or power) built into the hip gets left behind. The power and consistency of the swing is improved manyfold by using that hip tension to drive the shoulder. A simple example of this that comes to mind goes back to the days when me and dad practiced for pheasant season with the aid of a hand held clay pigeon thrower. The clay pigeon is placed in a spring loaded holder that folds back and locks in place. It sits hinged on the end of a hammer length handle. If the spring mechanism by itself is released, the pigeon won’t fly too far. My first attempt at trying to throw the pigeon resulted in a pathetic effort which was not even hard enough unlock the holder. As I got better, I could flick my arm which sent the pigeon flying. Finally I learned to ’step into it’ which means I stepped forward driving my hip toward the target. Using the leverage this put on my shoulders & arms, I could leverage my trailing arm forward of my body generating a very powerful movement which resulted in a much longer throw. Sure, leading with the hips was probably discovered the first time a caveman picked up a rock by a duck pond. But I bet it took him a little practice to get good 
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greg: in a "finished-learned" swing all the forces blend into a seamless whole. A good swing becomes "nothing" – a glend of forces in which self conscious evaporates. Do you feel forces of various kinds when walking? or riding a bike? I rather think you do those things without self conscious exertions. Same with a good swing. Exuberate – like the 6-year old trying to hit a home run. He has no mechanical thoughts because his brain knows more than he does and IT is governing the whole magilla. George, I have trouble equating riding a bike with the intricacy of the golf swing. I know plenty about bike riding, having rode all over Oregon. There are no "good days and bad days" riding a bike. The golf swing, even experienced by the pros, is quite subject to error. I like the ideal of "swinging without not having to think about it" but I don’t have a solid, repeatable swing yet. This is why I must practice, and continue learning…diagnosing…..trying….failing…..occasionally succeeding.
VERY glad you’ve said this, Greg, because such a swing is the product of some "mechanical" stuff that does NOT require a lifetime to get right. It is something which, once found and UNDERSTOOD COGNITIVIELY is ALREADY THERE for you to use. When you feel or swing out of sorts it is because of a lack of the cognitive controls, not because you are "out of the zone." Many people believe and write as though a good swing is the result of some kind of self hypnosis or zonal miasma. I teach and maintain that it its seed and establishment in your brain is an IMMEDIATE and cognitive act which when executed VERY SIMPLY (in a few seconds by the book) then DOES establish the harmony and zonal mental state by itself. The thinking involved is PRIOR TO THE SHOT; ball position, alignment, posture, grip strength, etc. BUT THE SWING IS THEN MADE WITHOUT THE NEED FOR ANY MUSCLE MEMORY - the caveat of that being only if you have not built into your procedure deliberate or subconscious impulsive compensations from long using a hitting/forcing/manipulation procedure. Bad habits are harder to break OF THAT KIND than establishing a golfer from scratch. I insist that it is easier and quicker to proficiency than what I sense you are experiencing. FWIW. George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – -Greg HOW YOU THINK about your swing is MOST SERIOUISLY important. So protocols in which that its handled might just be your next step! George
Response:
Greg: in a "finished-learned" swing all the forces blend into a seamless whole. A good swing becomes "nothing" – a glend of forces in which self conscious evaporates. Do you feel forces of various kinds when walking? or riding a bike? I rather think you do those things without self conscious exertions. Same with a good swing. Exuberate – like the 6-year old trying to hit a home run. He has no mechanical thoughts because his brain knows more than he does and IT is governing the whole magilla.
George, I have trouble equating riding a bike with the intricacy of the golf swing. I know plenty about bike riding, having rode all over Oregon. There are no "good days and bad days" riding a bike. The golf swing, even experienced by the pros, is quite subject to error. I like the ideal of "swinging without not having to think about it" but I don’t have a solid, repeatable swing yet. This is why I must practice, and continue learning…diagnosing…..trying….failing…..occasionally succeeding. -Greg – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HOW YOU THINK about your swing is MOST SERIOUISLY important. So protocols in which that its handled might just be your next step! George
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In a previous post, I chronicled lesson 4 of 5, which focussed on shortening my backswing. This is accomplished by not allowing my hands to be above the plane of my shoulder, on the backswing. It feels like a half swing, but in reality (confirme by video) it’s a full swing. I’ve had outstanding results with my irons….my accuracy has been best ever. The driver and 3w is another matter. Shortening my backswing with these clubs have produced a very closed clubface at impact, translating into severe duckhooks. The cause is that my hands are moving faster than my hips, where before with the overswing, the hips had time to clear. Two tips I’ve heard….one says to lead with the hips…..the other says to lead with the left shoulder, which causes the hips to follow. I know I have serious difficulty focusing on the hips on the downturn….it feels like my hands gets lost in the lag, resulting in wild sprays. I have no clue, feeling-wise, how to lead with the left shoulder. Thoughts? In the meantime, I’m using two swings…..one for the irons and a overswing for the driver. One gets me on the greens….the other gets me somewhere near the fairway. -Greg — RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/schoenbergg.htm I do not feed trolls….see the RSG UIP http://home.globalfrontiers.com/rorider/
Greg: in a "finished-learned" swing all the forces blend into a seamless whole. A good swing becomes "nothing" – a glend of forces in which self conscious evaporates. Do you feel forces of various kinds when walking? or riding a bike? I rather think you do those things without self conscious exertions. Same with a good swing. Exuberate – like the 6-year old trying to hit a home run. He has no mechanical thoughts because his brain knows more than he does and IT is governing the whole magilla. HOW YOU THINK about your swing is MOST SERIOUISLY important. So protocols in which that its handled might just be your next step! George – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
In a previous post, I chronicled lesson 4 of 5, which focussed on shortening my backswing. This is accomplished by not allowing my hands to be above the plane of my shoulder, on the backswing. It feels like a half swing, but in reality (confirme by video) it’s a full swing. I’ve had outstanding results with my irons….my accuracy has been best ever. The driver and 3w is another matter. Shortening my backswing with these clubs have produced a very closed clubface at impact, translating into severe duckhooks. The cause is that my hands are moving faster than my hips, where before with the overswing, the hips had time to clear. Two tips I’ve heard….one says to lead with the hips…..the other says to lead with the left shoulder, which causes the hips to follow. I know I have serious difficulty focusing on the hips on the downturn….it feels like my hands gets lost in the lag, resulting in wild sprays. I have no clue, feeling-wise, how to lead with the left shoulder. Thoughts? In the meantime, I’m using two swings…..one for the irons and a overswing for the driver. One gets me on the greens….the other gets me somewhere near the fairway. -Greg — RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/schoenbergg.htm I do not feed trolls….see the RSG UIP http://home.globalfrontiers.com/rorider/