Is stronger better?

Question:

Wait a minute! Unless our friend here has had serious health problems, I find it hard to believe that he’s not hitting it as far as he did in 1985. I’m a fat tub of goo, and I’m at least a club longer than I was in 1995. And easily two clubs longer than when I was 22 in 1980! That’s just from new golf balls.

Oh really? Are you still hitting a 43" Persimmon driver or a 32-degree 5-iron? I kinda doubt it. You are probably hitting a 45"-46" driver with a 26-28 degree 5-iron.

Response:

Stronger is not better! Golf is not a game of the strong.. Freedom of motion in your swing is the key. Lee Trevino reminds us that when we feel force in our swing "We have lost it."

Yet the best player in the world today has a swing that looks forceful. I’ll bet it feels forceful too. dsc

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip…All I know is that at age 38, I don’t hit the ball quite as far as I did at say age 22. I’m just not as strong (or maybe as quick) as I used to be. I can improve the strength and quickness to some degree with strength training and cardio work. Wait a minute! Unless our friend here has had serious health problems, I find it hard to believe that he’s not hitting it as far as he did in 1985. I’m a fat tub of goo, and I’m at least a club longer than I was in 1995. And easily two clubs longer than when I was 22 in 1980! That’s just from new golf balls. Heck, aren’t most of the Senior Tour as long or longer than their primes?

Well, back in the early to mid 80’s I played some of the "longest rocks" available. I don’t play any of todays longest balls. That may have a little to do with it. I never thought too much about that angle. I do know I’m not nearly as strong as I was then… but I’m working on it. I still have good hand/eye coordination good balance, and pretty good hand speed too. Actually I feel more like 30 than 38, but even 30 isn’t 22. dsc dsc

Response:

thusly: Todd, I read your lengthy post and I thought it was one of the best posts I have seen. Before I got serious about golf I was a freestyle wrestler (heavyweight). I spent many years learning how to train, whether it be lifting running, cross training and how to prepare my body at different times of the year for what I needed it to do.

First off, thanks. Adjusting my training regimen has been really interesting, especially going from a kickboxer’s training (little to no lifting, about three times the cardio I do now, and plenty of sparring and rolling; had to keep a specific weight, more than anything else) to a golfer’s regime. Personally, I feel a lot more fit now than I ever did kickboxing…or more balanced, anyway. I also get the side benefit of not having pulled muscles, broken toes, or swollen eye sockets… I have spent alot of time talking to fitness people and golf people as well as researching this topic as well. You are right on in so many ways. Especially about gaining strength in you arms to hold swing positions.

Every day I swing, I smile now. Hell, I even smile when I’m in the gym lifting, which wasn’t happening on too regular a basis when I started. It all helps, everything. Personally, I’d recommend going to the gym for absolutely anyone, even if it’s just to walk the treadmill for twenty minutes. The benefits are just too great, for golf and for everything else in your life… I myself face a different set of problems, I have to lose mass and keep strength in specific areas while loosing it in others. I am concentrating on simular muscle groups as you mentioned. The most important elemnt of training for specific golf is the cardio work, This is probably more important that lifting because this builds basic athletisim at a fast rate. Stretching is also very responsable for increased distance.

Absolutely. If you’re not tired when you’re walking up that monster hill on 17, you’re not going to put a poor swing on the ball (or it’s one less thing to go wrong, anyway). I was reading in the book tonight that the shoulder stuff Els and Harmon recommend are more along the lines of preventative maintenance, protecting against rotator cuff injuries and that sort of thing. Suits me fine. All I know is that it’s a lot easier to hold any position I want now… Another thing I left out of the original post is what my brother calls my ‘happy feet’. I used to get a LOT of lateral motion in my feet…not the good kind like Slammin’ Snead, either. My feet were no bloody good at staying down; I assume it was overcompensation for the lack of strength in my upper body. As my shoulders, forearms and wrists gained strength, I found my feet staying on the ground longer and starting to act…well, I hesitate to use the word ‘proper’, but it was definitely more natural for me. The kid laughed last time he was home…he’s like "Not bad. Fred Astair to Freddie Couples. I’ll be damned, you *can* be taught…" My golf partner soent the last three months working on specific stretches (fairly golf specific, but benifitial for all aspects of life). His major concern was lack of distance, he has increased about 25 yards off his driver and about ten yards for each club. He didn’t lift much but did moderate cardio 2-3 times a week for 20 -25 minutes.(due to a limited time schedule). He didn’t lenghten his backswing as one might think but he is better able to turn his shoulders and create tork against his hips. Thisis where alot of power comes from.

Oddly enough, even when I wasn’t stretching every day, I found I was able to create more torque and get a better shoulder turn when I was lifting. Again, that’s a possible benefit of the feet staying steady…gives me a much better base, which just makes it easier to make a turn. Now the flexibility is really starting to pay off… Great post and good luck when you officially hit the links, my first round will be this Saturday (here in NY).

Ta again – and the very best of luck to you too. Smack a couple for me, but keep it under 70, alright? What part of NY are you in? (I was gonna go work in Fort Edward last year, but my visa fell through.) I’m spending my day tommorow in the major golf stores in Fredericton, hitting every forged club I can get my grubby little mitts on. Visions of Hogans and Cleveland GunMetals dancing in my head…may I just take this moment to bless my company for working me like a dog, thus allowing me to a) tell ‘em to stuff the overtime come golf season and b) buy the clubs I want, without having to resort to methods somewhat unbecoming in a young man (see: extortion and robbery, bank) Toddy Soprano Todd McGillivray – http://cplhicks.tripod.com/ RSG Role Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/mcgillivrayt.htm Mailing me? toddmc at nbnet dot nb dot ca. "I love being a writer, what I can’t stand is the paperwork." — Peter De Vries

Response:

SPAMcopped! — Mike Welch Charter Member RSG clique RSG SPAM Police S.W.A.T Team RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/welchm.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stronger is not better!

Response:

<snip…All I know is that at age 38, I don’t hit the ball quite as far as I did at say age 22. I’m just not as strong (or maybe as quick) as I used to be. I can improve the strength and quickness to some degree with strength training and cardio work.

Response:

A large chest (according to some LPGA players) can also hinder the swing. p.s. ok ok I am not a sexist please don’t flame me!!!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stronger is not better! A blanket statement like that is not a true statement. Golf is a game of balance and athletisism. You gane those through a variety of ways including stretching, cardio, and weights. They are not neccesary, but strengthening the right muscles can help ones swing (or in some cases such as me losing mass in some places ie: a large chest can also help the swing) RSG Role Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/mclaughlins.htm

Response:

Just take a look at the current long drive champ or Jason Zubac. Also how about Mark Mcgyre (sp) or Sammy Sosa. They all are very strong. I don’t think they would be as succesful if they were not. Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Remember Tiger’s 200+ 7iron out of the rough during the 2000 US Open. That imaged followed by the announcers saying that only a few players on Tour could hit that shot has left a lasting impression. I don’t actually agree with that. Clubhead is clubhead speed. Curtis Strange goes on and on about "there’s no substitute for strength," but in my opinion that’s true when you’re talking about lifting rocks, not swinging golf clubs. I don’t think Tiger’s strength hurts him at all, and perhaps it helps him make a more consistent swing, but I don’t think it is a significant factor in how far he hits the golf ball. He hit it just as far when he was a 16 year old stick figure, and I’m sure he could hack the ball 200 yards out of US Open rough then too. -joseph

Response:

A woman with a large chest is still not close to a man with a large chest. (although much more fun to look at) I have 55" chest and I don’t see many women coming close to that. I do get a good coil and can hit the ball fairly long. I’m one of those ex football players that are not supposed to have a good swing. Mark

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – A large chest (according to some LPGA players) can also hinder the swing. p.s. ok ok I am not a sexist please don’t flame me!!! Stronger is not better! A blanket statement like that is not a true statement. Golf is a game of balance and athletisism. You gane those through a variety of ways including stretching, cardio, and weights. They are not neccesary, but strengthening the right muscles can help ones swing (or in some cases such as me losing mass in some places ie: a large chest can also help the swing) RSG Role Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/mclaughlins.htm

Response:

Stronger is not better! Golf is not a game of the strong.. Freedom of motion in your swing is the key. Lee Trevino reminds us that when we feel force in our swing "We have lost it." This is why football players often become poor golfers. They seek strenght rather than freedom of motuion. Good luck and good golfing, Welcome to golf. You will find hundreds of FREE pages on my golf web site for beginners www.`golfjudd.com. H. Stanley Judd author, How to Play Golf the Easy Way (Preface by a US Open Champion) Harper and Row., Publishers

Response:

Stronger is not better!

A blanket statement like that is not a true statement. Golf is a game of balance and athletisism. You gane those through a variety of ways including stretching, cardio, and weights. They are not neccesary, but strengthening the right muscles can help ones swing (or in some cases such as me losing mass in some places ie: a large chest can also help the swing) RSG Role Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/mclaughlins.htm

Response:

Remember Tiger’s 200+ 7iron out of the rough during the 2000 US Open. That imaged followed by the announcers saying that only a few players on Tour could hit that shot has left a lasting impression.

I don’t actually agree with that. Clubhead is clubhead speed. Curtis Strange goes on and on about "there’s no substitute for strength," but in my opinion that’s true when you’re talking about lifting rocks, not swinging golf clubs. I don’t think Tiger’s strength hurts him at all, and perhaps it helps him make a more consistent swing, but I don’t think it is a significant factor in how far he hits the golf ball. He hit it just as far when he was a 16 year old stick figure, and I’m sure he could hack the ball 200 yards out of US Open rough then too. -joseph

Response:

There are at least 2 ways to lift weights. One extreme builds big bulky strong muscles, the other makes smaller strong high endurance muscles. I don’t think that many golfers would benefit from bulk (except maybe long drive champions), I don’t see how any of us could be hurt by more strength+endurance+flexibility. I don’t think anyone would argue that cardio work is great for all golfers… all people for that matter. Remember, as a teen, Tiger was miles past everybody and he looked like Urkel! The muscle came later. It helps him, but it’s not the reason he hits 200 yd 7’s.

Well, I have to carry my own clubs (I guess Tiger did too then)… additional muscle probably doesnt’ hurt in that aspect, nor does any extra conditioning. All I know is that at age 38, I don’t hit the ball quite as far as I did at say age 22. I’m just not as strong (or maybe as quick) as I used to be. I can improve the strength and quickness to some degree with strength training and cardio work. dsc

Response:

Todd, I read your lengthy post and I thought it was one of the best posts I have seen. Before I got serious about golf I was a freestyle wrestler (heavyweight). I spent many years learning how to train, whether it be lifting running, cross training and how to prepare my body at different times of the year for what I needed it to do. I have spent alot of time talking to fitness people and golf people as well as researching this topic as well. You are right on in so many ways. Especially about gaining strength in you arms to hold swing positions. I myself face a different set of problems, I have to lose mass and keep strength in specific areas while loosing it in others. I am concentrating on simular muscle groups as you mentioned. The most important elemnt of training for specific golf is the cardio work, This is probably more important that lifting because this builds basic athletisim at a fast rate. Stretching is also very responsable for increased distance. My golf partner soent the last three months working on specific stretches (fairly golf specific, but benifitial for all aspects of life). His major concern was lack of distance, he has increased about 25 yards off his driver and about ten yards for each club. He didn’t lift much but did moderate cardio 2-3 times a week for 20 -25 minutes.(due to a limited time schedule). He didn’t lenghten his backswing as one might think but he is better able to turn his shoulders and create tork against his hips. Thisis where alot of power comes from. Great post and good luck when you officially hit the links, my first round will be this Saturday (here in NY). sean RSG Role Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/mclaughlins.htm

Response:

Stronger is always better, but in golf it has just one caveat — strength at the expense of flexibility is not a good thing. And strength alone, without some grasp of technique, is virtually worthless. I’ve played golf with NFL players who couldn’t hit the ball out of their shadow. You have seen Charles Barkley play, haven’t you? He’s not exactly a 98-pound weakling. The best players work out to increase strength. No question. But they do very specific exercises that help them build up strength in their GOLF muscles, while maintaining maximum flexibility where they need it. Power in golf is not only about muscles, it’s about SPEED. Specifically, CLUBHEAD speed. It’s hard to create speed if you’re bound up and can’t move. I dare say most LPGA players, who would lose most arm wrestling contests with a great many muscular men, can outdrive about 99% of the muscular male golfers on the planet. This is partly due to technique (those gals are good, too), but it also goes to prove that you don’t have to be muscle-bound to hit solid golf shots. Randy Charter Member, RSG Clique My WEBSITE: www.YouGoGolf.com My RSG Roll Call profile: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/brownr.htm RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html Voiceovers/Narration/Production Services: www.RandyBrownProductions.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This has probably been discussed in this forum but does being a stronger golfer help you become a better golfer? The prospect of being able to hit the ball longer with the exact same swing I have now is very appealing. Has anyone out there already done this? What were the results? Did you focus your workouts on specific muscle areas like the arms, legs or back? Did it hurt your game in any ways? Remember Tiger’s 200+ 7iron out of the rough during the 2000 US Open. That imaged followed by the announcers saying that only a few players on Tour could hit that shot has left a lasting impression. The other impression comes from Duval where his increased strength hasn’t seemed (to me) to improve his overall game. It not why he’s not winning more events but it hasn’t increased his length or accuracy? To be honest I haven’t examined the stats so I could be wrong and there may be shots he can play now that he couldn’t play 4 years ago. — Later, -Kevin — To reply replace NOSPAM with earthlink —

Response:

I’m actually in the process of doing this right now. Before I started, I was about 160 lbs of some muscle, some fat. Now I’m 170 lbs of mostly muscle (but allow me to take time out to thank my kickass Ukranian genes and the folks at the Guinness Brewery for my lovely little pot belly . I find the greatest difference in my swing is better balance and control. My major swing flaw before I started working out was that my motion broke down at the top; my wrists and forearms weren’t strong enough to stop the club at the same point consistently on the backswing. Obviously, when you’re coming at the ball from a different angle of attack each and every time, you’re gonna have some wonderful rounds where you’re close to 90 and quite a few where you’re pushing 115. My other problem was that my lower back would get really sore after about 30 full swings at 75-85% power; that put me about around hole 12 before my back started to ache. This lead me to two possible outcomes: either my clubs were too heavy, or my body was too weak. I couldn’t afford a new set of irons at the time, but I could afford a gym membership with work’s help; so off I went. I also kinda liked the idea of fixing myself instead of my equipment; it’d allow me to feel more worthy of a really nice set of clubs. I picked up a copy of Ernie Els’ Guide to Golf Fitness, which is basically a guide to lifting weights for golf. I’d highly recommend it, if only ’cause I really like that approach to lifting. Two to three sets of low weights/high reps three times a week, lots of cardio and plenty of stretching; do that consistently for the length of a Canadian winter (I haven’t played since the start of November) and you’re ready for the golf season. The areas the book really concentrates on are the shoulders, wrists and forearms, the legs and the ‘core’ (from your thighs up through your abs and lower back to your shoulders, I think is how they defined it). Add in a whole pile of stretches that increase flexibility, and you’re pretty much sorted. The only thing I’ve really changed is less ab work (but that’s personal preference; I don’t need it because of the amount of kickboxing/mixed martial arts I’ve done in the past few years. If you weren’t doing something intensive like that, I’d stick to the ab workouts the book suggests). Anyway, the results (from swinging in my basement, admittedly, so we’ll see how it goes on the course) are pretty simple, I guess. My entire swing feels much more in control, from the moment I set up to my follow-through. I’ve increased my clubhead speed (through the decidedly unscientific apparatus of my brother; mind you, I’m inclined to believe him , my ballstriking is WAY more consistent (proven through impact tape). Best part, though; I can make 100 full swings at high power in under an hour and my back doesn’t hurt a bit. Now, the problems with the logic: 1. The reasons my clubhead speed is up? Well, since I don’t have to worry about my back too much anymore, I can swing harder. It doesn’t FEEL like I’m swinging harder; it’s just happening when I don’t have to worry. Of course, I’m also more flexible and my base is more stable, but I honestly think my speed’s up because my back isn’t a major consideration in my mind anymore. 2. The reason my ballstriking’s better isn’t because of the amount of practice I’ve put in over the winter while I was doing this; if anything, I’ve been hitting less (during the summer I’m playing at least once a week and hitting a large bucket at the range 5 of 7 days a week). The reason my ballstriking is better is because I was too weak before I started this, which stuck it in and broke it off from the start. In other words, your mileage will definitely vary here. The other problem? I can’t tell you what flaws I’ve gotten because of this. I haven’t even seen a golf course since mid-November that wasn’t covered in that white shit from Above. If you’re so inclined, I’d be more than happy to detail them when I actually do get out on the course (should be another month, we figure at work. The point is that I’ve used the gym to really work on the strength and conditioning flaws my golf game had/has. If you don’t have problems like this, than I’m not honestly sure what good lifting will do for you. Of course, I’m also of the opinion that it can’t hurt, really. I mean, if you’re looking for an excuse to get yourself into the shape Tiger or David are in, shit, I say do it anyway…can’t hurt to shave the pounds off and tone up, can it? Worst case scenario, you get more smiles from the cart girl this year… Remember Tiger’s 200+ 7iron out of the rough during the 2000 US Open. That imaged followed by the announcers saying that only a few players on Tour could hit that shot has left a lasting impression.

Funny, that’s the exact shot that inspired me… Todd McGillivray – Team Internet Paintball #467 http://cplhicks.tripod.com/ Mailing me? toddmc at nbnet dot nb dot ca. "Sometimes I feel like I can’t move on…nothin’ in life is turnin’ me on…but I still see clearly when I see you smilin’…" – Richard Ashcroft

Response:

For a better golf game you need to exercise the muscle between your ears and play a smarter game. Good Luck; J.S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This has probably been discussed in this forum but does being a stronger golfer help you become a better golfer? The prospect of being able to hit the ball longer with the exact same swing I have now is very appealing. Has anyone out there already done this? What were the results? Did you focus your workouts on specific muscle areas like the arms, legs or back? Did it hurt your game in any ways? Remember Tiger’s 200+ 7iron out of the rough during the 2000 US Open. That imaged followed by the announcers saying that only a few players on Tour could hit that shot has left a lasting impression. The other impression comes from Duval where his increased strength hasn’t seemed (to me) to improve his overall game. It not why he’s not winning more events but it hasn’t increased his length or accuracy? To be honest I haven’t examined the stats so I could be wrong and there may be shots he can play now that he couldn’t play 4 years ago. — Later, -Kevin — To reply replace NOSPAM with earthlink —

Response:

This has probably been discussed in this forum but does being a stronger golfer help you become a better golfer? The prospect of being able to hit the ball longer with the exact same swing I have now is very appealing. Has anyone out there already done this? What were the results? Did you focus your workouts on specific muscle areas like the arms, legs or back? Did it hurt your game in any ways? Remember Tiger’s 200+ 7iron out of the rough during the 2000 US Open. That imaged followed by the announcers saying that only a few players on Tour could hit that shot has left a lasting impression. The other impression comes from Duval where his increased strength hasn’t seemed (to me) to improve his overall game. It not why he’s not winning more events but it hasn’t increased his length or accuracy? To be honest I haven’t examined the stats so I could be wrong and there may be shots he can play now that he couldn’t play 4 years ago. — Later, -Kevin — To reply replace NOSPAM with earthlink —

Response:

My prejudice is that, for all but real low handicappers, the biggest help strength adds is conditioning, which helps in the major area of balance and posture. But, muscles aren’t nearly as important to really clocking it as solid contact and extension. So if golf is your only motivation, I wouldn’t waste time pumping iron. Remember, as a teen, Tiger was miles past everybody and he looked like Urkel! The muscle came later. It helps him, but it’s not the reason he hits 200 yd 7’s. IMHO Henway

Response:

Some strength, particularly in the hands and forearms, might help you muscle a ball out of some bad lies, but I’d generally agree with Henway. If you were going to concentrate on building your body for the golf swing, I’d imagine the muscles to concentrate on would be those at the front, side and back of the body. They’re the prime power in the swing. The arms to a large extent just connect you to the club. And you’re not only looking at bulk, but flexibility and responsiveness (fast twitch?). You don’t necessarily need muscle bulk to propel a 200gram clubhead at a good speed, but you do need a good technique. FWIW, my son is a 16yo string bean of about 60kg. At present with summer run, he is driving the greens on holes of up to 300m (330 yards). His normal drive distance is about 250m (275 yards). Robert Allenby and Brett Ogle are comparatively long hitters, but both were of similar slender build when they were young, and hit the ball miles off the tee. Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com

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