Question:
If you were really stuck in this situation ( be sure that there’s no designated drop area ), you could chip or pitch down to a forward tee box that you could carry from.
THAT could take me a small bucket of balls, too! :-) The white tees were off to the right probably 75 yards away (or more). The wind would have been 45 degrees in my face from the left. The teeing area I’d be shooting for is a small island in the waste area. Pretty unconventional, and a difficult shot for me at best, but certainly an interesting idea… wish I’d tried it! Just my luck, I’d actually land the ball on the teeing area and it would nestle up behind a tee marker… BW (Jeff Buege)
Response:
: You’re right that I had no business playing from the blue tees, and I : have played this hole from the whites successfully… but for this : tournament everyone had to play from the blues. : : BW (Jeff Buege) : If you were really stuck in this situation ( be sure that there’s no : designated drop area ), you could chip or pitch down to a forward tee : box that you could carry from. I’ve had this happen to me twice, and it’s because as Jeff said, I was in a tournament on a tough course. My flight was playing blues, but the "big boys" were playing from the golds. First hole, blue tees all the way in the back of the gold tee box, wind howling in my face, way too long and risky carry over a hazard into the fairway. I played a mid iron to the ladies tee box area, and then made par from there for a bogey. On a long par 3, they had this hole as a closest to the pin, so the blues were again stuck with the golds all the way back. 200+, all carry over water, wind again howling in my face. I hit to a bail out area short and right, chipped up and made par. If there was no bail out, I probably would have just pitched about 70 yds forward to the white tee area, and then hit a short iron from there. A smart bogey beats trying an impossible shot. Richard Stern http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/sternr.htm
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Once again, on this one particular hole the carry isn’t bad (less than 150 yards) from the white tees. I actually like this hole from the standpoint of showing certain caliber of players that they maybe shouldn’t be playing from the blues. Jeff, couldn’t you just pitch a ball to the white (or red?) tees, and hit a shot from there? That way, you’re over in two, which is a heck of a lot better than being wet and over in three (which is what happens a lot on the water hole at my course!!) OtherKevin * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!
Response:
Once again, on this one particular hole the carry isn’t bad (less than 150 yards) from the white tees. I actually like this hole from the standpoint of showing certain caliber of players that they maybe shouldn’t be playing from the blues. Jeff, couldn’t you just pitch a ball to the white (or red?) tees, and hit a shot from there? That way, you’re over in two, which is a heck of a lot better than being wet and over in three (which is what happens a lot on the water hole at my course!!)
If forced on the issue, I think you’re right. I think this would be my only play. Pitching to the white tee box (a small elevated island surrounded by waste area) would be a difficult shot for me, but ‘difficult’ beats ‘impossible’ any day. I don’t recall exploring this option at the time — I can tell you my recollection is that it would present a shot that would make my palms sweat. But, since it was a best ball format and the other guys in my group had plenty of stick to clear the hazard, I was written off on that hole without investigating the white tees as an alternate target. BW (Jeff Buege)
Response:
The format of the tournament was 5-man teams picking the two best scores on each hole, so I simply didn’t play the hole. But what if it was medal play and I had to count every stroke? Would I be forced to just stand there pounding balls into the hazard until someone disqualified me? There *ought* to be a designated drop area for such a hole. But if there isn’t, you will have to quit the hole and DQ yourself.
No! Make a statement. Stay there filling in the lake with golf balls and jamming up the course until it gets dark. Next time, there will be a drop area. 
dsc – acssysdsc
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Once again, on this one particular hole the carry isn’t bad (less than 150 yards) from the white tees. I actually like this hole from the standpoint of showing certain caliber of players that they maybe shouldn’t be playing from the blues.
You know, I have NEVER known a forced carry, possible or impossible, to dissuade the armpit-scratching "yuk yuk" crowd of casual golfers from playing from whatever tees they damn well please. Unless you have played desert or heavily vegetated courses you cannot imagine the number of players I’ve been paired up with or played behind who continue to hit clubs off the tee that put the ball out of play half the time. Imagine if people got to play for free if they shot within 4 points of their handicap. No, that still wouldn’t do it. "I’ll play the golf course how I want to, dammit! Gimme another beer out my bag, would you." -joseph
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My old home course, Club West, has one brutal forced carry from the way-back tees. I’m not sure how far, 220 at least, from a tee maybe 30 feet elevated. The carry is over desert, but fortunately if you come up a bit short (the hole *does* play into the wind some days!) the waste area is fairly smoothly contoured and the ball often bounces up onto the rough or even fairway.
The hazard on the hole I opted not to play is desert waste are also… but it was completely covered with pucker brush — hardly enough room to even walk between the bushes and virtually impossible to find a ball. Any ball that came up short stayed short… there was no possiblity of bouncing forward to the fairway. I did try to clear it the first day, but came up short… when we got to the other side and considered whether we should venture out to look for my ball (it didn’t look at all promising), someone pointed out a rattlesnake warning sign on the edge of the hazard. That’s all I needed to see! BW (Jeff Buege)
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone who cannot make such a shot should not play on a course with such a requirement, which is pretty heavy duty, and thus grossly unfair for recreational golf. You have to be able to lay up somehwere. Rob One other possibility: move up to the more forward tees! If at least one hole on your course has a forced carry you can’t make – maybe that’s a sign that you don’t have the game it takes from those tees. I should mention that there was no bail-out area and no parallel fairways. The cart path went to the right from the tee area and then turned to go around the right side of the hazard… I don’t recall that it would have been an option to dribble a ball down the cartpath. You’re right that I had no business playing from the blue tees, and I have played this hole from the whites successfully… but for this tournament everyone had to play from the blues.
My old home course, Club West, has one brutal forced carry from the way-back tees. I’m not sure how far, 220 at least, from a tee maybe 30 feet elevated. The carry is over desert, but fortunately if you come up a bit short (the hole *does* play into the wind some days!) the waste area is fairly smoothly contoured and the ball often bounces up onto the rough or even fairway. Of course from there it’s about 250 yards. The card says 465 but it’s a little more than that, or else I’d remember having hit something shorter than a 4 iron for my second on it occasionally. :-) There’s one more hole along those lines, the final par 5 where another tee was added a couple years ago, somewhat dramatically elevated (100 feet?) with a shorter carry but all kinds of trouble left and right. Monstrously long, plays downhill 3 wood / 3 wood / wedge or 9 iron, 620-ish I guess. Playing desert courses you kind of get used to forced carries, but that doesn’t elevate them beyond "necessary evil" in my book. And there are quite a few desert courses here–including Club West–where from the standard length (6200-6800 yards) tees the carries are very easily negotiated by anything other than the vilest of shots. -joseph
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Absolutely. And courses with such carries will not get that much business.
i’ve always liked water carries. but as far as design goes i’ve always thought a way better design principle is to have the water kind of oblique across the fairway. that way if you want to take on 220 meters great, if you want to take on only 100 meters that also works. a much fairer design imho. brett
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anyone who cannot make such a shot should not play on a course with such a requirement, which is pretty heavy duty, and thus grossly unfair for recreational golf. You have to be able to lay up somehwere. Rob One other possibility: move up to the more forward tees! If at least one hole on your course has a forced carry you can’t make – maybe that’s a sign that you don’t have the game it takes from those tees. I should mention that there was no bail-out area and no parallel fairways. The cart path went to the right from the tee area and then turned to go around the right side of the hazard… I don’t recall that it would have been an option to dribble a ball down the cartpath. You’re right that I had no business playing from the blue tees, and I have played this hole from the whites successfully… but for this tournament everyone had to play from the blues. BW (Jeff Buege)
If you were really stuck in this situation ( be sure that there’s no designated drop area ), you could chip or pitch down to a forward tee box that you could carry from. Howard Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Response:
Lots of holes, mainly par 3s don’t have bailouts. What about 17 at Sawgrass. island green. Where does one bailout there. Now, if the hole is a par 4, there might be a design flaw, or maybe this guy just needs to take up bowling
Island greens often have a designated drop area on the island. Again, I think that for recreational golf, including handicap tournaments, there is no point in setting up a hole so that a mid handicap player could easily make a quad. Bogeys and doubles do a fine job of identifying the better players. -joseph
Response:
Lots of players can’t carry 200, but can play rather well. A course with such a hole that offers recreational tournaments is badly designed.
I agree that there should be a bail-out area. This course is a target golf layout — lots of waste areas that have to be negotiated with a good sense of how far you hit the ball. On the first tee, for example, there is a band of waste area that cuts across the fairway — your choice is to lay up under 200 yards or the big hitters can try to clear it if they can carry 240. I like that kind of design, because it at least allows you the option. Once again, on this one particular hole the carry isn’t bad (less than 150 yards) from the white tees. I actually like this hole from the standpoint of showing certain caliber of players that they maybe shouldn’t be playing from the blues. The tournament I was involved in, as I understand it, was a bit beyond a "recreational tournament". It was the Northwest Open… which I believe is the area’s big pro-am of the year. They certainly billed it as such. I was a last-second replacement for someone who couldn’t make it, and was in way over my head though I still had a great time. BW (Jeff Buege)
Response:
If a person can play a course, they should find a course that suits their game. To some people, the idea of one or two long, forced carries on a course is what they want. Before you dump your hard earned money on a round of golf, you should research the course. all you have to do is ask someone in the pro shop a few questions. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lots of players can’t carry 200, but can play rather well. A course with such a hole that offers recreational tournaments is badly designed. Rob Lots of holes, mainly par 3s don’t have bailouts. What about 17 at Sawgrass. island green. Where does one bailout there. Now, if the hole is a par 4, there might be a design flaw, or maybe this guy just needs to take up bowling I should mention that there was no bail-out area and no parallel fairways. The cart path went to the right from the tee area and then turned to go around the right side of the hazard… I don’t recall that it would have been an option to dribble a ball down the cartpath. You’re right that I had no business playing from the blue tees, and I have played this hole from the whites successfully… but for this tournament everyone had to play from the blues. It sounds like the people running the golf tournament didn’t take everyone’s differing skill levels into account, Jeff. Of course it’s different in casual play. The course I play most often has one hole with about a 200 yard carry over a pond from the white tees, which I can negotiate pretty well most of the time. However, it’s about a 225-yard carry from the blues. I tried it from the back once, hit a good drive and missed clearing the pond by about five feet. I’m sticking to the whites on that hole for a while. This particular hole is a dogleg, with ample area to the side to go around the pond if you lack the distance to clear it. I think most holes should offer such alternatives. — Don Porter Newspaper Reporter & Webmaster Web Page: http://www.datacruz.com/~dporter
Response:
Lots of holes, mainly par 3s don’t have bailouts. What about 17 at Sawgrass. island green. Where does one bailout there. Now, if the hole is a par 4, there might be a design flaw, or maybe this guy just needs to take up bowling – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I should mention that there was no bail-out area and no parallel fairways. The cart path went to the right from the tee area and then turned to go around the right side of the hazard… I don’t recall that it would have been an option to dribble a ball down the cartpath. You’re right that I had no business playing from the blue tees, and I have played this hole from the whites successfully… but for this tournament everyone had to play from the blues. It sounds like the people running the golf tournament didn’t take everyone’s differing skill levels into account, Jeff. Of course it’s different in casual play. The course I play most often has one hole with about a 200 yard carry over a pond from the white tees, which I can negotiate pretty well most of the time. However, it’s about a 225-yard carry from the blues. I tried it from the back once, hit a good drive and missed clearing the pond by about five feet. I’m sticking to the whites on that hole for a while. This particular hole is a dogleg, with ample area to the side to go around the pond if you lack the distance to clear it. I think most holes should offer such alternatives. — Don Porter Newspaper Reporter & Webmaster Web Page: http://www.datacruz.com/~dporter
Response:
Absolutely. And courses with such carries will not get that much business. Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If a person can play a course, they should find a course that suits their game. To some people, the idea of one or two long, forced carries on a course is what they want. Before you dump your hard earned money on a round of golf, you should research the course. all you have to do is ask someone in the pro shop a few questions. Lots of players can’t carry 200, but can play rather well. A course with such a hole that offers recreational tournaments is badly designed. Rob Lots of holes, mainly par 3s don’t have bailouts. What about 17 at Sawgrass. island green. Where does one bailout there. Now, if the hole is a par 4, there might be a design flaw, or maybe this guy just needs to take up bowling I should mention that there was no bail-out area and no parallel fairways. The cart path went to the right from the tee area and then turned to go around the right side of the hazard… I don’t recall that it would have been an option to dribble a ball down the cartpath. You’re right that I had no business playing from the blue tees, and I have played this hole from the whites successfully… but for this tournament everyone had to play from the blues. It sounds like the people running the golf tournament didn’t take everyone’s differing skill levels into account, Jeff. Of course it’s different in casual play. The course I play most often has one hole with about a 200 yard carry over a pond from the white tees, which I can negotiate pretty well most of the time. However, it’s about a 225-yard carry from the blues. I tried it from the back once, hit a good drive and missed clearing the pond by about five feet. I’m sticking to the whites on that hole for a while. This particular hole is a dogleg, with ample area to the side to go around the pond if you lack the distance to clear it. I think most holes should offer such alternatives. — Don Porter Newspaper Reporter & Webmaster Web Page: http://www.datacruz.com/~dporter
Response:
Lots of players can’t carry 200, but can play rather well. A course with such a hole that offers recreational tournaments is badly designed. Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lots of holes, mainly par 3s don’t have bailouts. What about 17 at Sawgrass. island green. Where does one bailout there. Now, if the hole is a par 4, there might be a design flaw, or maybe this guy just needs to take up bowling I should mention that there was no bail-out area and no parallel fairways. The cart path went to the right from the tee area and then turned to go around the right side of the hazard… I don’t recall that it would have been an option to dribble a ball down the cartpath. You’re right that I had no business playing from the blue tees, and I have played this hole from the whites successfully… but for this tournament everyone had to play from the blues. It sounds like the people running the golf tournament didn’t take everyone’s differing skill levels into account, Jeff. Of course it’s different in casual play. The course I play most often has one hole with about a 200 yard carry over a pond from the white tees, which I can negotiate pretty well most of the time. However, it’s about a 225-yard carry from the blues. I tried it from the back once, hit a good drive and missed clearing the pond by about five feet. I’m sticking to the whites on that hole for a while. This particular hole is a dogleg, with ample area to the side to go around the pond if you lack the distance to clear it. I think most holes should offer such alternatives. — Don Porter Newspaper Reporter & Webmaster Web Page: http://www.datacruz.com/~dporter
Response:
I should mention that there was no bail-out area and no parallel fairways. The cart path went to the right from the tee area and then turned to go around the right side of the hazard… I don’t recall that it would have been an option to dribble a ball down the cartpath. You’re right that I had no business playing from the blue tees, and I have played this hole from the whites successfully… but for this tournament everyone had to play from the blues.
It sounds like the people running the golf tournament didn’t take everyone’s differing skill levels into account, Jeff. Of course it’s different in casual play. The course I play most often has one hole with about a 200 yard carry over a pond from the white tees, which I can negotiate pretty well most of the time. However, it’s about a 225-yard carry from the blues. I tried it from the back once, hit a good drive and missed clearing the pond by about five feet. I’m sticking to the whites on that hole for a while. This particular hole is a dogleg, with ample area to the side to go around the pond if you lack the distance to clear it. I think most holes should offer such alternatives. — Don Porter Newspaper Reporter & Webmaster Web Page: http://www.datacruz.com/~dporter
Response:
Anyone who cannot make such a shot should not play on a course with such a requirement, which is pretty heavy duty, and thus grossly unfair for recreational golf. You have to be able to lay up somehwere. Rob One other possibility: move up to the more forward tees! If at least one hole on your course has a forced carry you can’t make – maybe that’s a sign that you don’t have the game it takes from those tees.
I should mention that there was no bail-out area and no parallel fairways. The cart path went to the right from the tee area and then turned to go around the right side of the hazard… I don’t recall that it would have been an option to dribble a ball down the cartpath. You’re right that I had no business playing from the blue tees, and I have played this hole from the whites successfully… but for this tournament everyone had to play from the blues. BW (Jeff Buege)
Response:
One other possibility: move up to the more forward tees! If at least one hole on your course has a forced carry you can’t make – maybe that’s a sign that you don’t have the game it takes from those tees. — http://home.midsouth.rr.com/joecartpath RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/reedj.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, there HAS to be a way around the hazard (cartpath, bridge or walking pathway) – you could probably just chip and putt your way to the green that way. That’s not necessarily true, or not realistic anyway. I’ve run into holes from time to time that have no bailout areas at all, and no drop areas for the forced carries. You might be able to putt and chip the ball to the green but it would take 20-40 strokes. Or more. Another ugly relic of the "slope rating = quality" mindset of the late 1980s. Personally I think designers should generally be satisfied with holes that are difficult to par but easy to bogey (for mid to low handicap players anyway), or at worst where double bogey is possible or likely from a poor tee or approach shot. -joseph
Response:
Anyone who cannot make such a shot should not play on a course with such a requirement, which is pretty heavy duty, and thus grossly unfair for recreational golf. You have to be able to lay up somehwere. Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One other possibility: move up to the more forward tees! If at least one hole on your course has a forced carry you can’t make – maybe that’s a sign that you don’t have the game it takes from those tees. — http://home.midsouth.rr.com/joecartpath RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/reedj.htm Well, there HAS to be a way around the hazard (cartpath, bridge or walking pathway) – you could probably just chip and putt your way to the green that way. That’s not necessarily true, or not realistic anyway. I’ve run into holes from time to time that have no bailout areas at all, and no drop areas for the forced carries. You might be able to putt and chip the ball to the green but it would take 20-40 strokes. Or more. Another ugly relic of the "slope rating = quality" mindset of the late 1980s. Personally I think designers should generally be satisfied with holes that are difficult to par but easy to bogey (for mid to low handicap players anyway), or at worst where double bogey is possible or likely from a poor tee or approach shot. -joseph
Response:
The format of the tournament was 5-man teams picking the two best scores on each hole, so I simply didn’t play the hole. But what if it was medal play and I had to count every stroke? Would I be forced to just stand there pounding balls into the hazard until someone disqualified me?
There *ought* to be a designated drop area for such a hole. But if there isn’t, you will have to quit the hole and DQ yourself. -joseph
Response:
My 2 cents BW, Sometimes we must think outside the square to try to solve a problem such as this. Were there any parallel fairways ? How would you have walked around the hazard ? Exactly where is out-of-bounds ? I have a favorite par-5 that I often play up the adjacent par-4 fairway. (My Slice at the time forced me to learn the route)(and the oncoming course traffic sometimes object to my route.) Note: It requires 2 great pitches over stands of trees from a lie in a thick rough to complete it in this method. Whilst a birdie is near imossible to achieve, a par is not if you enjoy one-putting. I guess BW not everywhere this is possible with out-of-bounds etc. But our boundaries in the game are : 1.complete 18 holes. 2. don’t go out of bounds 3. Follow and obey the rules 4. Don’t use up all our own balls in the bag. As I said my 2 cents. Regardz Colin Davies – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Another thread reminded me of an experience I had in a tournament a couple of years back, and it raises a question that I’ve wondered about since. We were on the tee of a par 4 facing more than 200 yards of carry over a hazard with the wind in our faces. There was no way I could get across this… you could give me a large bucket of range balls and I couldn’t clear the hazard even once… it just wasn’t possible. The format of the tournament was 5-man teams picking the two best scores on each hole, so I simply didn’t play the hole. But what if it was medal play and I had to count every stroke? Would I be forced to just stand there pounding balls into the hazard until someone disqualified me?
Response:
Well, there HAS to be a way around the hazard (cartpath, bridge or walking pathway) – you could probably just chip and putt your way to the green that way. — http://home.midsouth.rr.com/joecartpath RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/reedj.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Another thread reminded me of an experience I had in a tournament a couple of years back, and it raises a question that I’ve wondered about since. We were on the tee of a par 4 facing more than 200 yards of carry over a hazard with the wind in our faces. There was no way I could get across this… you could give me a large bucket of range balls and I couldn’t clear the hazard even once… it just wasn’t possible. The format of the tournament was 5-man teams picking the two best scores on each hole, so I simply didn’t play the hole. But what if it was medal play and I had to count every stroke? Would I be forced to just stand there pounding balls into the hazard until someone disqualified me?
Response:
Well, there HAS to be a way around the hazard (cartpath, bridge or walking pathway) – you could probably just chip and putt your way to the green that way.
That’s not necessarily true, or not realistic anyway. I’ve run into holes from time to time that have no bailout areas at all, and no drop areas for the forced carries. You might be able to putt and chip the ball to the green but it would take 20-40 strokes. Or more. Another ugly relic of the "slope rating = quality" mindset of the late 1980s. Personally I think designers should generally be satisfied with holes that are difficult to par but easy to bogey (for mid to low handicap players anyway), or at worst where double bogey is possible or likely from a poor tee or approach shot. -joseph
Response:
Another thread reminded me of an experience I had in a tournament a couple of years back, and it raises a question that I’ve wondered about since. We were on the tee of a par 4 facing more than 200 yards of carry over a hazard with the wind in our faces. There was no way I could get across this… you could give me a large bucket of range balls and I couldn’t clear the hazard even once… it just wasn’t possible. The format of the tournament was 5-man teams picking the two best scores on each hole, so I simply didn’t play the hole. But what if it was medal play and I had to count every stroke? Would I be forced to just stand there pounding balls into the hazard until someone disqualified me?