Question:
What I see in both Scottb’s and your replies is that you rework posts to suit your rebuttals.
Show me 1 instance where I ‘reworked a post to suit my rebuttal’. Trust me, it is not necessary to change anything to rebut your posts. —
Response:
Remember, because the spine angle is tilted forward, there is a natural opening and closing of the clubface to its static position at address. This has nothing whatsoever to do with any manipulation by the hands, and has everything to do with the hands and arms remaining "connected" to the body while the trunk rotates around the spine.
Absolutely. The proper position of the arms and hands is more a product of shoulder position in relation to the player’s coil. If it were kept perpendicular, the toe would be pointing nearer 45 degrees to the sky.
Depends where in the backswing you are talking about. You’re simply wrong about this. You can make a swing and wrap an Ace bandage around your arms and shoulders binding them so they can’t move at all relative to your upper body. When the club reaches waist high in the takeaway, the toe will be up. The only way it isn’t is if you’ve closed it down. This is a fact, and if you don’t see it, I’m wasting time with you. Paul Azinger strays as far from arm or wrist rotation as anyone and look at the body contortion he has to make in order to block a dead pull. He’s trapped himself into a held-off downswing.
He only keeps his hands in the same relation as they were at address. That’s the whole point. On the downswing, he makes some moves to block the shot on target, inhibiting a release. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – With 11 TOUR victories, including a major, I think using his swing as a model for how NOT to do it is laughable. But there’s no question that it’s a bit unconventional. What I’ve described is not. What took me by surprise during experimentation with my own swing is that consistency is *better* achieved with excessive rotation than with too little. We may be finally getting to the jist of this discussion… It’s possible that your tendency has always been to manipulate the club by closing it down in the backswing, all the while being under the impression that you were keeping it square to the line. But the truth is, keeping it square to the line requires a manipulation that in effect CLOSES DOWN the face in the takeaway. YOUR PERCEPTION that you’ve started rotating it open may simply be that you’re no longer falling prey to your own faulty tendency. It FEELS to you like you’re fanning it open, when in fact, you’re keeping it SQUARE TO PLANE. Don’t confuse the two.
A simple exercise is to make your normal movement away from the ball to waist high. Now, rotate your shoulders back to square without doing anything with your hands or arms. If you made a connected backswing without any hand or arm manipulations, the club should return to its address position. However, if you made any hand manipulations, your club won’t be back at the address position. For those people who fan open the clubhead, they’ll return their shoulders to square, but the clubhead will be open and lagging behind the ball. The only way to square the club would be to make a last minute "hit" with the hands. That’s fine, but it is extremely difficult to do consistently, nevermind consistently well. Once the appropriate grip(strong/weak) is found for this type of swing, errors become smaller.
But in relation to good golf swings, their errors are huge. There have been very few great ball strikers who swung like this. They are the exception, not the rule. It takes a bit of practice to get out of the mindset that the clubface should be guided throughout the swing (as Hogan writes in "5 Lessons" don’t give the clubface a passing thought, all is done during the setup and waggle), but once you trust it and let it go, your shot pattern will tighten and misses are of the mild rather than wild variety.
Hogan also said in the 5 Lessons that "the actions of the arms is motivated by the movements of the body, and the hands consciously do nothing but maintain a firm grip on the club." However, if Hogan implied that everything was a product of the waggle and set up, he would not have spent all that time from page 61 to page 83 describing in great detail the movements for a good backswing. It’s a golf axiom that a player is only as good as his backswing because only a sound backswing can provide the position and leverage to carry out a sound golf shot. One point: the flatter the swing, the more rotation. The rotation of the trunk is the same whether a player has an upright plane or whether he has a flatter plane, it doesn’t matter.
Flat or upright swings are a product of spine tilt and arm position at address — rotation is the same regardless. These golfers probably misinterpreted Hogan’s book and the "Life" article about Hogan’s secret. I think it’s you who’s misunderstood Hogan. Randy
I agree. — F. Blaine Dickson Kelowna BC Canada
Response:
Here’s the best way I know to clarify this point. It clarified it for me, and maybe it will for you, too. The PLANE is that angle at which the club travels through air. If you were to watch your swing on a TV monitor, looking at it from a view taken behind the ball looking down the line of your shot, you’d see the line formed by the club’s shaft. For the sake of discussion, let’s call that angle 45 degrees (it’s not exactly that, but it’ll work for the sake of this discussion). That 45-degree angle can be extended beyond your body and above. The club will move essentially on this plane throughout the swing (actually, it’s PARALLEL TO that angle once it gets above your shoulders). That’s the swing plane. Note that the plane is approximately perpendicular to your spine angle. This is important. Now, for the sake of discussion, and to help illustrate the point, let’s change the plane. I think if you see it this way, it will help you understand it better (it did me). Take your address position with club in hand. Now, we’re going to change your swing plane by having you eliminate the angle created by you bending over. Stand up. And when you stand up, bring the club up with you, with your arms still in their same position relative to your upper body. This should bring your arms up not quite to parallel to the ground, and the club’s shaft will be at an angle roughly 45 degrees off from where it was when you were in your address position (very rough figures, for the sake of discussion only). You’ve now got the club out in front of you. Your arms are still connected to your body in the armpit areas (you should feel like you could pinch golf tees in your armpits between your chest and upper arms). You’re standing straight up. Your forearms are not quite horizontal, and the club’s shaft is approximately horizontal. Just like in your address position, IT IS STILL ESSENTIALLY PERPENDICULAR TO YOUR SPINE ANGLE. You are now in exactly the same position as your address position, except you’re now standing straight up, not bent over at the hips as you would be in your normal address positon. The most important thing to note here is that the plane is now essentially horizontal, rather than angled as it would be if your were in your normal golf posture. Now, make note of the clubface’s orientation as you stand with it in front of you. Its toe is pointing straight up in the air, and it is square to plane. Next, without manipulating the club with your hands or arms, simply turn your shoulders clockwise. When you get halfway back to your right, the clubface still has its toe pointing in the air, and the face should still be square to plane. In this horizontal position, it’s quite easy to see any shifting of the clubface’s orientation off "square to plane." Guess what? THIS SHOULD BE YOUR TAKEAWAY. It’s really that simple. Any manipulation of the club off this "square-to-plane" position merely necessitates a compensatory move somewhere else in the swing. You merely replicate this same non-manipulative rotation away from the ball (the rotation happens with the shoulders, not the hands and arms) from your normal golf posture. Try it. You’ll discover that doing it this way gets the toe of the club to an "essentially toe-up" postion. The fact of the matter is, it may appear a degree or two closed, but THAT IS THE CORRECT POSITION. If the toe is pointed straight up, you’ve actually opened the face slightly with your hands. And you’ve just proved it to yourself with the "standing up" drill. Though Jeff N. emphatically (and ignorantly) insists that the golf swing needs to be more complicated than this, anyone in their right mind can see that a club traveling at 100 MPH is impossible to control. So why in heaven’s name would you want to make it necessary to do so by adding such a ridiculous variable? Why not keep the clubface "square to plane" throughout the swing? I’ll be interested to hear if this method helps you "see it" more clearly. Randy One of the web’s most-visited personal golf websites Featured in USA TODAY, and in the USGA’s official publication, "Golf Journal" http://wwwgolfer.home.mindspring.com RSG Roll Call profile: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/brownr.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Randy — can you clarify this, having trouble visualizing this. What exactly do you mean by SQUARE TO PLANE throughout the swing? Assuming the leading edge is square at address (and impact), then at the half way back point (shaft parallel to ground), I have always been told that the toe should be pointing straight up (leading edge vertical). In order to achieve this, you cannot have the leading edge square to the plane like at address, but it is also not parallel to the plane either. Not sure at the top which way the leading edge is aligned, will have to check when I get home. I really want to understand this–you guys know your stuff and it helps immensely. Can you clarify? TIA Mark The reason why this method doesn’t work should be obvious. Things are happening so fast at the moment of impact, there’s no way to expect in any predictable sense that the club will return to square at just the right instant time after time. The way the straight hitters keep the ball in play is by keeping the clubface SQUARE TO PLANE throughout their swing, which enables them more often than not to return the clubface square to the target line at the moment of truth. No manipulation of the clubface open and shut in blind faith that at that one-ten-thousandth of a second when impact happens a miracle will occur and the clubface will be square to the line. Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Response:
There is rotation in *every* pro’s swing.
You’re wrong on this. Dead wrong. The only rotation in a pro’s swing is the rotation of the shoulders around a relatively fixed axis in the backswing. The hands and arms MUST NOT manipulate the club independent of this rotation of the trunk. It is only the trunk’s rotation around a constant spine angle that GIVES THE APPEARANCE that the hands are rotating. They, in fact, are remaining square to plane throughout the swing. It the only way to predictably deliver the club to the ball. My suggestion for the golfer who now keeps his head back through impact is to consciously rotate his left arm and/or wrist *throughout* his downswing. This *must* be a conscious effort to those not yet initiated to the sensation of rotation and proper release.
Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Oh, I’m sorry. Thanks for playing our game. We have some lovely parting gifts. You’re wrong. Simply wrong. This is HORRIBLE advice. And any newbie who does this is only ingraining the a move that is guaranteed to prevent them from making a powerful, predictable swing. Not to mention the fact that it will cost them hundreds of dollars in lost golf balls. Why learn something you’ll just have to unlearn later? (See my post titled, "Bobby Jones debunks the myth of wrist rotation." In it, Jones himself explains why you’re terribly off the mark here.) Sorry, Jeff, but I’ll take Bobby Jones opinion over yours every time. Unless of course you won the Grand Slam and I somehow missed it. Randy One of the web’s most-visited personal golf websites Featured in USA TODAY, and in the USGA’s official publication, "Golf Journal" http://wwwgolfer.home.mindspring.com RSG Roll Call profile: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/brownr.htm
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Now, having said that, let’s address this myth of wrist rotation. It is perhaps the single most misunderstood aspect of the golf swing. Quoted from Jones — Thus when we speak of "pronation of the wrists," we are talking about something that does not exist. Since the golf club is held in both hands, both hands cannot pronate at the same time while holding the club. Should either hand be pronated, the other must supinate. The actual fact is that in the correct golf swing there is very little pronation of the left hand or rotation of the left forearm during the backswing, and the effort to introduce either is about as harmful as anything a player can do. In truth, no independent action of the hands at the beginning of the backswing is correct, or at least likely to be correct, simply because if the swing should be started by the hands, the proper winding up of the trunk will never be undertaken." Jones said it better than anyone in RSG ever could.
What Bobby Jones said makes a lot of sense, Randy, but I don’t think it necessarily contradicts what Ben Hogan said in "Five Lessons." Reading your excerpt from Jones’ book, it appears Jones was referring to a conscious effort by pronate or manipulate the wrists during the *backswing*. I’ve left a couple of paragraphs from the excerpt you included that seem to bear this out. Hogan, as you know, talked about supinating the left wrist just before impact, not during the first three-fourths of the downswing and certainly not during the backswing. It is clearly indicated in the text and accompanying drawings in the book. Jones seems more interested in excessive hand and wrist action in the areas of the swing prior to the clubhead coming through the impact zone. You certainly can’t fault him for that, but that is not what Hogan was talking about. Jones’ comment that one hand must be pronated if the other is supinated is so obvious that it seems almost gratuitous. I think Ben Hogan was intelligent enough to know that if the left wrist was supinated at impact the right wrist would be pronated. He obviously never referred to supination or pronation of the "wrists." Perhaps a good argument can be made against undue concentration on wrist action through the impact zone. But I don’t think Jones makes it here. — Don Porter Newspaper Reporter & Webmaster Web Page: http://www.datacruz.com/~dporter
Response:
Jeff, before you go and accuse me of editing the text of your message for the purpose of debating you, I’ll cordially include it in its entirety here for one and all to read. My rebuttal follows…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Randy, I can see your reasoning. But let me prove the existence of rotation to you with your own statement. The way the straight hitters keep the ball in play is by keeping the clubface SQUARE TO PLANE throughout their swing, which enables them more often than not to return the clubface square to the target line at the moment of truth. What does ’square to plane’ mean do you think? Do you think that at all points in the backswing and downswing the club face is perpendicular to the clubhead’s path? This is where people go wrong. Look at any professional golfer and check the orientation of the clubface at the top of the backswing. If there were no rotation going back, the clubface would be ‘*perpendicular* to plane’–it would face a point in the sky on a line passing through the ball and the clubhead–actually up and behind the golfer. We all know that no golfer even approaches this clubface orientation–not even Paul Azinger. Now look at the checkpoint used so often for proper takeaway–where shaft is horizontal and hands are at around 8:00 when viewed face on. It is most often suggested to have the toe of the club pointing somewhat nearly skyward. This proves that the clubface has already been manipulated off of ‘perpendicular to plane’ yet it is said to be ’square’. If it were kept perpendicular, the toe would be pointing nearer 45 degrees to the sky. Paul Azinger strays as far from arm or wrist rotation as anyone and look at the body contortion he has to make in order to block a dead pull. He’s trapped himself into a held-off downswing. What took me by surprise during experimentation with my own swing is that consistency is *better* achieved with excessive rotation than with too little. This may seem odd, but I’d encourage those with already mechanically sound swings to try it. Once the appropriate grip(strong/weak) is found for this type of swing, errors become smaller. It all has to do with freedom. You are finally setting free a very natural aspect of a pure golf swing–rotation. It takes a bit of practice to get out of the mindset that the clubface should be guided throughout the swing(as Hogan writes in "5 Lessons" don’t give the clubface a passing thought, all is done during the setup and waggle), but once you trust it and let it go, your shot pattern will tighten and misses are of the mild rather than wild variety. One point: the flatter the swing, the more rotation. As for the Bobby Jones excerpt, my only guess is that he was addressing a certain group of golfers who were fanning their takeaways and not using their bodies enough. These golfers probably misinterpreted Hogan’s book and the "Life" article about Hogan’s secret. Jeff N
[snipped useless speech] Now look at the checkpoint used so often for proper takeaway–where shaft is horizontal and hands are at around 8:00 when viewed face on. It is most often suggested to have the toe of the club pointing somewhat nearly skyward. This proves that the clubface has already been manipulated off of ‘perpendicular to plane’ yet it is said to be ’square’.
Once again, you’re exactly wrong, Jeff. By NOT manipulating the club with your hands as you rotate your shoulders clockwise around your spine, the toe of the club will naturally point up when the shaft reaches approximately a horizontal position. Any manipulation of the club with the hands independent of the body’s turn will cause the toe of the club to be either (a.) facing the sky, if rolled open as you suggest, or (b.) facing the ground if rolled shut. The natural position WITHOUT MANIPULATION is approximately with the toe up. This is an indisputable fact. Remember, because the spine angle is tilted forward, there is a natural opening and closing of the clubface to its static position at address. This has nothing whatsoever to do with any manipulation by the hands, and has everything to do with the hands and arms remaining "connected" to the body while the trunk rotates around the spine. If it were kept perpendicular, the toe would be pointing nearer 45 degrees to the sky.
You’re simply wrong about this. You can make a swing and wrap an Ace bandage around your arms and shoulders binding them so they can’t move at all relative to your upper body. When the club reaches waist high in the takeaway, the toe will be up. The only way it isn’t is if you’ve closed it down. This is a fact, and if you don’t see it, I’m wasting time with you. Paul Azinger strays as far from arm or wrist rotation as anyone and look at the body contortion he has to make in order to block a dead pull. He’s trapped himself into a held-off downswing.
With 11 TOUR victories, including a major, I think using his swing as a model for how NOT to do it is laughable. But there’s no question that it’s a bit unconventional. What I’ve described is not. What took me by surprise during experimentation with my own swing is that consistency is *better* achieved with excessive rotation than with too little.
We may be finally getting to the jist of this discussion… It’s possible that your tendency has always been to manipulate the club by closing it down in the backswing, all the while being under the impression that you were keeping it square to the line. But the truth is, keeping it square to the line requires a manipulation that in effect CLOSES DOWN the face in the takeaway. YOUR PERCEPTION that you’ve started rotating it open may simply be that you’re no longer falling prey to your own faulty tendency. It FEELS to you like you’re fanning it open, when in fact, you’re keeping it SQUARE TO PLANE. Don’t confuse the two. This may seem odd, but I’d encourage those with already mechanically sound swings to try it.
I believe in this sentence, you’ve pretty much summed up your level of expertise in the area — that’s right, Jeff, let’s take players who already have mechanically sound swings and start trying something that will add a variable into it that can only add an element of inconsistency. That’s idiotic. Once the appropriate grip(strong/weak) is found for this type of swing, errors become smaller.
The only thing that defines an "appropriate" grip is that it returns the clubface to square at impact. Hogan’s grip was weak (he always fought a hook), the modern players almost all use a strong grip (Tiger, Duval, Couples, Love, Azinger, etc., etc.). It all has to do with freedom. You are finally setting free a very natural aspect of a pure golf swing–rotation.
Look, the only rotation that happens in a good golf swing is the rotation of the trunk, and every good player on earth knows this. Shall we assume that this excludes you? From the bad advice you’ve offered here, I can only presume that you’re searching like the ones you’re trying to "teach." Good luck, y’all. It takes a bit of practice to get out of the mindset that the clubface should be guided throughout the swing (as Hogan writes in "5 Lessons" don’t give the clubface a passing thought, all is done during the setup and waggle), but once you trust it and let it go, your shot pattern will tighten and misses are of the mild rather than wild variety.
I agree. But that has nothing to do with the rest of this discussion. What you’re describing as the proper way of doing it is exactly that — GUIDING it. What I’ve described is exactly the opposite — setting it and leaving it there, allowing the BIG MUSCLES to do the work. This is what ALL TEACHERS teach. You, on the other hand, are of the mind to suggest that using the small muscles (hands, arms) is the way to go. Please point to me one teacher in the history of golf who agrees with you. Just one. One point: the flatter the swing, the more rotation.
The rotation of the trunk is the same whether a player has an upright plane or whether he has a flatter plane, it doesn’t matter. Of course there’s a point of no return to swinging on a flat plane. This should be obvious, since in the most extreme example, the flattest of all possible planes is horizontal to the ground, and give the player no way to hit the ball. The most effective method of swinging is a perfect pendulum, or a perfectly upright swing. But since human beings aren’t built that way, we can’t swing a golf club that way. Besides, a player’s swing plane is dictated by his build. To "try to" swing flatter or more upright than is your natural plane requires conscious manipulation by the hands and arms, which is perhaps the single most damaging thing a player can do. As for the Bobby Jones excerpt, my only guess is that he was addressing a certain group of golfers who were fanning their takeaways and not using their bodies enough.
Yes. Just as you’ve described. These golfers probably misinterpreted Hogan’s book and the "Life" article about Hogan’s secret.
I think it’s you who’s misunderstood Hogan. Randy
Response:
My problem with your snip of my post was that you left out my implication that striving for a wider downswing arc keeps the *hit* out of the top of the downswing.
Bzzzzzzzzz, wrong! First rule of golf physics, centrifugal force releases the club. When you move in a circle, as in widening the downswing arc, you develop centrifugal force and cast the club. What you advocate is the hackers nightmare. I had written "don’t think hit until the hit" as part of my suggestion to focus on the wider arc. Too many golfers go straight at the ball from the top and end up doing exactly what you say I advocate, they cast the club.
Bzzzzzz, wrong again! Moving in a straight line avoids centrifugal force and retains the wrist cock. Straight line delivery is a proper procedure and narrows the downswing arc. The straight to ball movement of the hands flips the clubhead outward(usually helped by the right hand),prereleasing the shaft to left arm angle and causing a steep attack and steep rebound through the ball while the left wrist breaks down.
So what your saying is linear motion develops centrifugal force that throws the club out? This is a new one on me. Davis writes: <.. Easy, the only way to increase the arc radius (make it wider) is to uncock the left wrist so the left arm and shaft become in line increasing the distance between the right shoulder and clubhead. You can only do this by casting in the downstroke, not retaining the wrist cock. Besides your being wrong here, you take out of context my original suggestion to Eric.
Then tell me how to increase the swing arc without uncocking the wrist. Eric had trouble with ingrained bad habits of a head-slid downswing. Once he stopped sliding his head, these old habits remained and contributed to a high trajectory. My assumption was that he had gotten lazy with his downswing width, since the head-slid swing doesn’t require width to obtain a low trajectory. Now that his head is stable, he must be retrained to experience this width. Otherwise, he’ll continue to cast, flip, scoop, etc.
If he does what you tell him too he’ll continue to cast, flip, scoop, etc. since they are all problems of a WIDER downswing arc. Do Eric and favor and don’t offer him any more advice. When the proper sequence of hips- shoulders- arms is not followed in the downswing, the hands come down not only in a narrower arc but many times follow more of a straight line than any arc at all.
Bzzzzzz, wrong for a third time! With the proper sequence the hips separate from the upper body causing a tilt in the spine that lowers the right shoulder and hands linearly, this linear motion narrows the arc and gives straight line delivery, the secret of wrist cock storage. Keep it up, you’re on a roll. ‘Note that the hands and arms are not "crossed over", with the right hand twisted atop the left. Is this the sentence you want me to reread? Let me explain it to you and BTW, I don’t have the book yet obviously I understand it better than you do.
O.K, Dr. Mann notes the biggest problem they’ve seen in the address of amateurs they’ve worked with. Since you don’t have the book yet understand it better than me perhaps you can explain to me what this problem is. If you take a look at great swings with great hip and body action you’ll see that at no point do the hands appear crossed throughout the swing. This is not because there is no rotation. It’s because the body turn has kept up with the rotation.
Huh? Grip a golf club at address, note the hands are vertical. Take the club half way back to toe up. Did your hands or wrist rotate palm down or palm up? NO! Take the club back to impact, are the hands still vertical? YES! Did you have to rotate your hands palms up or palm down? NO! Take the club half way into the follow through so the club is toe up. Did your hands rotate palm down or palm up? NO? Tell me anywhere in the stroke where either hand turns palm up or palm down. You can’t! The hands remain more in front of the body. *Of course* at impact the hands are not going to be crossed over; that would mean a pull hook. However, they *have* rotated to a square impact position. They will continue to rotate unless forcefully held off in a left arm chickenwing-like action.
They may rotate for you because it’s compensation for a block out and poor swing mechanics. With proper mechanics you don’t need hand or wrist rotation. My suggestion for the golfer who now keeps his head back through impact is to consciously rotate his left arm and/or wrist *throughout* his downswing. This *must* be a conscious effort to those not yet initiated to the sensation of rotation and proper release. Why only those who keep their head back, if it’s vital to squaring the clubface wouldn’t it apply to any head position??????? Better think about your reply very carefully. You are truly exhausting. Again you take me out of context.
How did I use you out of context, I quote you "for the golfer WHO NOW KEEPS HIS HEAD BACK THROUGH IMPACT". Of course it would apply to any head position.
But you didn’t say that. Apparently you could benefit from this positive action yourself. How do you know, you never saw me hit a golf ball? I know from what you do not know.
Lets see: 1) You know how well I hit the golf ball without ever seeing me. 2) You knew how much golfers knew by looking at them. 3) You thought the work a Hogan wanna-be did was noble despite him never telling us what this work did. You’re a weekend hacker, aren’t you? David Golf Instruction Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/
Response:
Randy — can you clarify this, having trouble visualizing this. What exactly do you mean by SQUARE TO PLANE throughout the swing? Assuming the leading edge is square at address (and impact), then at the half way back point (shaft parallel to ground), I have always been told that the toe should be pointing straight up (leading edge vertical). In order to achieve this, you cannot have the leading edge square to the plane like at address, but it is also not parallel to the plane either. Not sure at the top which way the leading edge is aligned, will have to check when I get home. I really want to understand this–you guys know your stuff and it helps immensely. Can you clarify? TIA Mark – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The reason why this method doesn’t work should be obvious. Things are happening so fast at the moment of impact, there’s no way to expect in any predictable sense that the club will return to square at just the right instant time after time. The way the straight hitters keep the ball in play is by keeping the clubface SQUARE TO PLANE throughout their swing, which enables them more often than not to return the clubface square to the target line at the moment of truth. No manipulation of the clubface open and shut in blind faith that at that one-ten-thousandth of a second when impact happens a miracle will occur and the clubface will be square to the line.
Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
Response:
My problem with your snip of my post was that you left out my implication that striving for a wider downswing arc keeps the *hit* out of the top of the downswing. I had written "don’t think hit until the hit" as part of my suggestion to focus on the wider arc. Too many golfers go straight at the ball from the top and end up doing exactly what you say I advocate, they cast the club. The straight to ball movement of the hands flips the clubhead outward(usually helped by the right hand),prereleasing the shaft to left arm angle and causing a steep attack and steep rebound through the ball while the left wrist breaks down. Maintaining the width of the left arm and shoulder while the hips do their early work keeps this from happening. It is felt as an in-line pull of the shaft. Anyone who hits from the top will not feel this sensation. Davis writes:
<.. Easy, the only way to increase the arc radius (make it wider) is to uncock the left wrist so the left arm and shaft become in line increasing the distance between the right shoulder and clubhead. You can only do this by casting in the downstroke, not retaining the wrist cock.
Besides your being wrong here, you take out of context my original suggestion to Eric. Eric had trouble with ingrained bad habits of a head-slid downswing. Once he stopped sliding his head, these old habits remained and contributed to a high trajectory. My assumption was that he had gotten lazy with his downswing width, since the head-slid swing doesn’t require width to obtain a low trajectory. Now that his head is stable, he must be retrained to experience this width. Otherwise, he’ll continue to cast, flip, scoop, etc. When the hands are kept wide from the top of the backswing until the hips have brought them down to around hip height, the left arm/shaft angle is maintained longer than were the hands allowed to think *hit* from the top. This is Golf Instruction 101. What do you expect to accomplish with your nonsensical attacks? What the hell are you talking about? The hands are always kept the same radius in the downstroke due to the straight left arm, this has nothing to do with maintaining the angle. Maintaining the angle is a result of physics, not geometry. Before telling someone about Golf Instruction 101 perhaps you should try taking remedial golf instruction.
When the proper sequence of hips- shoulders- arms is not followed in the downswing, the hands come down not only in a narrower arc but many times follow more of a straight line than any arc at all. ’Note that the hands and arms are not "crossed over", with the right hand twisted atop the left.
Is this the sentence you want me to reread? Let me explain it to you and BTW, I don’t have the book yet obviously I understand it better than you do. If you take a look at great swings with great hip and body action you’ll see that at no point do the hands appear crossed throughout the swing. This is not because there is no rotation. It’s because the body turn has kept up with the rotation. The hands remain more in front of the body. *Of course* at impact the hands are not going to be crossed over; that would mean a pull hook. However, they *have* rotated to a square impact position. They will continue to rotate unless forcefully held off in a left arm chickenwing-like action. My suggestion for the golfer who now keeps his head back through impact is to consciously rotate his left arm and/or wrist *throughout* his downswing. This *must* be a conscious effort to those not yet initiated to the sensation of rotation and proper release. Why only those who keep their head back, if it’s vital to squaring the clubface wouldn’t it apply to any head position??????? Better think about your reply very carefully.
You are truly exhausting. Again you take me out of context. Of course it would apply to any head position. It was the assumption that Eric had gotten into the habit of *not* rotating with his old head slide that led to this offering. Apparently you could benefit from this positive action yourself. How do you know, you never saw me hit a golf ball?
I know from what you do not know. Jeff N
Response:
See my rebuttal to Randy’s post. Jeff N – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Randy writes: (See my post titled, "Bobby Jones debunks the myth of wrist rotation." In it, Jones himself explains why you’re terribly off the mark here.)
Response:
What I see in both Scottb’s and your replies is that you rework posts to suit your rebuttals.
I can’t speak for Scottb, but I include the original post to show what the poster said and what I’m replying too. There is no reworking on my part. Working on an inside attack to the ball, a wider downswing arc A WIDER downswing arc? Are you advocating casting? Didn’t you know one factor good swings incorporate is a NARROWER downswing arc from retaining the wrist cock? Apparently it’s YOU who doesn’t know what a good swing incorporates. How did you interpret my syggestion as advocating casting?
Easy, the only way to increase the arc radius (make it wider) is to uncock the left wrist so the left arm and shaft become in line increasing the distance between the right shoulder and clubhead. You can only do this by casting in the downstroke, not retaining the wrist cock. Casting has nothing to do with a wide downswing arc.
You better believe it does. When the hands are kept wide from the top of the backswing until the hips have brought them down to around hip height, the left arm/shaft angle is maintained longer than were the hands allowed to think *hit* from the top. This is Golf Instruction 101. What do you expect to accomplish with your nonsensical attacks?
What the hell are you talking about? The hands are always kept the same radius in the downstroke due to the straight left arm, this has nothing to do with maintaining the angle. Maintaining the angle is a result of physics, not geometry. Before telling someone about Golf Instruction 101 perhaps you should try taking remedial golf instruction. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -rotation of the left arm or wrist throughout the downswing and throughswing will help this. The left wrist has most likely been breaking down at impact for a while. You need to retrain it to turn over counterclockwise instead of cup. Ding, ding, ding, wrong again! Here is a quote from Dr. Manns book ‘Swing Like A Pro" that features a computer model composite of over 100 touring pros (and I would say they incorporate the factors of a good swing): Page 202; ‘Note that the hands and arms are not "crossed over", with the right hand twisted atop the left. This is proof you do not need (or want) to consciously rotate your hands and arms through impact as a means of squaring the clubface. That’s what a crossed-over look indicates – too much hand and forearm rotation – and it’s a true swing killer. Trying to rotate the clubface to a square position through a last second "snap" of the hands is a recipe for wildness and inconsistency. Who can consciously time and control the rotation of an object that is moving upward of 100 miles per hour? The fact that the best players don’t try it may give you some idea of the difficulty of this maneuver.’ You’re mistake my words again. You happen to be mistaking Dr. Mann’s words also. I completely agree with what Dr. Mann is saying. Let me clear his words up for you. What he is simply saying here is not to flip the hands over through impact to square the clubface. He is not saying that rotation is to be left out of the entire downswing. Let me requote:"Trying to rotate the clubface to a square position through a last second ’snap’ of the hands is a recipe for wildness and inconsistency." Read and reread this until you understand it.
You’re a laugh…….you don’t even have the book and you’re trying to tell us what he meant. There was a picture that went with the paragraph that showed the hands and forearms do not turn or roll over one another. Here’s a suggestion, try reading the first sentence again , read and reread it until you understand it. There is rotation in *every* pro’s swing.
No there isn’t, it’s an illusion. Now we know your mechanics are "looks like" based. My suggestion for the golfer who now keeps his head back through impact is to consciously rotate his left arm and/or wrist *throughout* his downswing. This *must* be a conscious effort to those not yet initiated to the sensation of rotation and proper release.
Why only those who keep their head back, if it’s vital to squaring the clubface wouldn’t it apply to any head position??????? Better think about your reply very carefully. Apparently you could benefit from this positive action yourself.
How do you know, you never saw me hit a golf ball? You snipped vital info from my post in an attempt to weaken my position.
Then I invite you to go back and show any info I snipped from your Is rsg your training ground for a career in political campaign management?
No, but I can see it’s your hang out as a golf guru wanna-be. David Golf Instruction Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/
Response:
Randy, I can see your reasoning. But let me prove the existence of rotation to you with your own statement. The way the straight hitters keep the ball in play is by keeping the clubface SQUARE TO PLANE throughout their swing, which enables them more often than not to return the clubface square to the target line at the moment of truth.
What does ’square to plane’ mean do you think? Do you think that at all points in the backswing and downswing the club face is perpendicular to the clubhead’s path? This is where people go wrong. Look at any professional golfer and check the orientation of the clubface at the top of the backswing. If there were no rotation going back, the clubface would be ‘*perpendicular* to plane’–it would face a point in the sky on a line passing through the ball and the clubhead–actually up and behind the golfer. We all know that no golfer even approaches this clubface orientation–not even Paul Azinger. Now look at the checkpoint used so often for proper takeaway–where shaft is horizontal and hands are at around 8:00 when viewed face on. It is most often suggested to have the toe of the club pointing somewhat nearly skyward. This proves that the clubface has already been manipulated off of ‘perpendicular to plane’ yet it is said to be ’square’. If it were kept perpendicular, the toe would be pointing nearer 45 degrees to the sky. Paul Azinger strays as far from arm or wrist rotation as anyone and look at the body contortion he has to make in order to block a dead pull. He’s trapped himself into a held-off downswing. What took me by surprise during experimentation with my own swing is that consistency is *better* achieved with excessive rotation than with too little. This may seem odd, but I’d encourage those with already mechanically sound swings to try it. Once the appropriate grip(strong/weak) is found for this type of swing, errors become smaller. It all has to do with freedom. You are finally setting free a very natural aspect of a pure golf swing–rotation. It takes a bit of practice to get out of the mindset that the clubface should be guided throughout the swing(as Hogan writes in "5 Lessons" don’t give the clubface a passing thought, all is done during the setup and waggle), but once you trust it and let it go, your shot pattern will tighten and misses are of the mild rather than wild variety. One point: the flatter the swing, the more rotation. As for the Bobby Jones excerpt, my only guess is that he was addressing a certain group of golfers who were fanning their takeaways and not using their bodies enough. These golfers probably misinterpreted Hogan’s book and the "Life" article about Hogan’s secret. Jeff N
Response:
What I see in both Scottb’s and your replies is that you rework posts to suit your rebuttals. Working on an inside attack to the ball, a wider downswing arc A WIDER downswing arc? Are you advocating casting? Didn’t you know one factor good swings incorporate is a NARROWER downswing arc from retaining the wrist cock? Apparently it’s YOU who doesn’t know what a good
swing incorporates. How did you interpret my syggestion as advocating casting? Casting has nothing to do with a wide downswing arc. When the hands are kept wide from the top of the backswing until the hips have brought them down to around hip height, the left arm/shaft angle is maintained longer than were the hands allowed to think *hit* from the top. This is Golf Instruction 101. What do you expect to accomplish with your nonsensical attacks? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -rotation of the left arm or wrist throughout the downswing and throughswing will help this. The left wrist has most likely been breaking down at impact for a while. You need to retrain it to turn over counterclockwise instead of cup. Ding, ding, ding, wrong again! Here is a quote from Dr. Manns book ‘Swing Like A Pro" that features a computer model composite of over 100 touring pros (and I would say they incorporate the factors of a good swing): Page 202; ‘Note that the hands and arms are not "crossed over", with the right hand twisted atop the left. This is proof you do not need (or want) to consciously rotate your hands and arms through impact as a means of squaring the clubface. That’s what a crossed-over look indicates – too much hand and forearm rotation – and it’s a true swing killer. Trying to rotate the clubface to a square position through a last second "snap" of the hands is a recipe for wildness and inconsistency. Who can consciously time and control the rotation of an object that is moving upward of 100 miles per hour? The fact that the best players don’t try it may give you some idea of the difficulty of this maneuver.’
You’re mistake my words again. You happen to be mistaking Dr. Mann’s words also. I completely agree with what Dr. Mann is saying. Let me clear his words up for you. What he is simply saying here is not to flip the hands over through impact to square the clubface. He is not saying that rotation is to be left out of the entire downswing. Let me requote:"Trying to rotate the clubface to a square position through a last second ’snap’ of the hands is a recipe for wildness and inconsistency." Read and reread this until you understand it. There is rotation in *every* pro’s swing. My suggestion for the golfer who now keeps his head back through impact is to consciously rotate his left arm and/or wrist *throughout* his downswing. This *must* be a conscious effort to those not yet initiated to the sensation of rotation and proper release. Apparently you could benefit from this positive action yourself. You snipped vital info from my post in an attempt to weaken my position. Is rsg your training ground for a career in political campaign management? Jeff N
Response:
Feel your center of gravity before you swing, and during your backswing, keep the spine angle constant. Don’t lose your center of gravity in your downswing until well after you have hit the ball.
can you elaborate a bit more on how you feel your center of gravity.. i’m very interested in this.. do you feel it during a waggle? please tell me more.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Feel your balance. Rob Hi all.. I have found recently that i let my head travel too far forward (towards my left foot), resulting in a slice-with-driver/3wood – fade with irons. Can anyone suggest a swing thought – or drill — to get me to keep my head still – or at least stay behind the ball on my downswing.. thanks
Response:
thanks all that have replied, i’m sure i’ll have this problem licked in no time.. at the course today, i was able to stay behind the ball for a few holes, but then i started topping the ball on my drives.. at the range later that night i found i was able to tee the ball up higher and make good contact.. Made for a higher ball flight, but i couldnt tell how far they where going, so i dont know if i was gaining or losing distance.. I guess as a by product of keeping my head behind the ball, the launch angle was increased greatly.. does this make sense?? I usually have to tee the ball up pretty low, if not, i would often sky my drives (marks on top of driver to prove it) I guess having an orlimar driver (smaller vertical hitting area than most drivers i’ve seen) doesnt help much either– but when this thing contacts, boy does it go… so just doubles checking if my thinking is on track here.. thanks
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all.. I have found recently that i let my head travel too far forward (towards my left foot), resulting in a slice-with-driver/3wood – fade with irons. Can anyone suggest a swing thought – or drill — to get me to keep my head still – or at least stay behind the ball on my downswing.. thanks
Response:
If you don’t make a full shoulder turn it could cause you to lift your head during the swing, and I have seen that most people do it with their driver because the driver is longer and they tend to get a little impatient on the backswing and shorten it up quite a bit. Just make sure your back is facing the target at the top of your swing and that your weight is on your right foot. One other thing if you do this properly you shouldn’t have to consciously keep your head behind the ball. — "You got to be very careful if you don’t know where you’re going, because you might not get there." –Yogi Berra
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all.. I have found recently that i let my head travel too far forward (towards my left foot), resulting in a slice-with-driver/3wood – fade with irons. Can anyone suggest a swing thought – or drill — to get me to keep my head still – or at least stay behind the ball on my downswing.. thanks
Response:
Eric Dunn writes:
<.. I guess as a by product of keeping my head behind the ball, the launch angle was increased greatly.. does this make sense??
It does make sense but only until you get out of some of your old swing compensations for head slide. No doubt you used the arms and hands in a way not effective with the new stable-headed swing. Working on an inside attack to the ball, a wider downswing arc(don’t think about the hit until the hit), and rotation of the left arm or wrist throughout the downswing and throughswing will help this. The left wrist has most likely been breaking down at impact for a while. You need to retrain it to turn over counterclockwise instead of cup. Jeff N
Response:
First let’s review what you wrote the other day: I went to a busy driving range a couple of days ago. I watched from a distance about 20 golfers’ swings. What struck me was that all of them had no clue what factors a good golf swing incorporates.
Now lets review what you wrote in this reply: Working on an inside attack to the ball, a wider downswing arc
A WIDER downswing arc? Are you advocating casting? Didn’t you know one factor good swings incorporate is a NARROWER downswing arc from retaining the wrist cock? Apparently it’s YOU who doesn’t know what a good swing incorporates. rotation of the left arm or wrist throughout the downswing and throughswing will help this. The left wrist has most likely been breaking down at impact for a while. You need to retrain it to turn over counterclockwise instead of cup.
Ding, ding, ding, wrong again! Here is a quote from Dr. Manns book ‘Swing Like A Pro" that features a computer model composite of over 100 touring pros (and I would say they incorporate the factors of a good swing): Page 202; ‘Note that the hands and arms are not "crossed over", with the right hand twisted atop the left. This is proof you do not need (or want) to consciously rotate your hands and arms through impact as a means of squaring the clubface. That’s what a crossed-over look indicates – too much hand and forearm rotation – and it’s a true swing killer. Trying to rotate the clubface to a square position through a last second "snap" of the hands is a recipe for wildness and inconsistency. Who can consciously time and control the rotation of an object that is moving upward of 100 miles per hour? The fact that the best players don’t try it may give you some idea of the difficulty of this maneuver.’ I’ll repeat it again, it’s YOU who doesn’t know what a good swing incorporates and what makes Scottb’s reply so true. David Golf Instruction Homepage http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/3628/
Response:
I guess as a by product of keeping my head behind the ball, the launch angle was increased greatly.. does this make sense??
It does make sense but only until you get out of some of your old swing compensations for head slide. No doubt you used the arms and hands in a way not effective with the new stable-headed swing. Working on an inside attack to the ball, a wider downswing arc (don’t think about the hit until the hit), and rotation of the left arm or wrist throughout the downswing and throughswing will help this. The left wrist has most likely been breaking down at impact for a while. You need to retrain it to turn over counterclockwise instead of cup.
Eric, You would do well to ignore what Jeff N. is saying here. With all due respect, he is simply wrong. First of all, as David Laville has correctly pointed out, the downswing tends to be narrower than the backswing simply because in a properly executed swing, the wrist cock is maintained until as late as possible. Now, in Jeff’s defense, I will say that the width of the player’s left arm remains *essentially* the same coming down as it was going up, but the apparent arc created by the clubhead is narrower coming down as a result of this late release of the wrist cock. Now, having said that, let’s address this myth of wrist rotation. It is perhaps the single most misunderstood aspect of the golf swing. In my opinion, it is one of the biggest reasons why amateurs the world over struggle with keeping the ball in play. They fan the clubface open in their takeaway, then they expect to time the closing down of the clubface at the exact nanosecond of impact so that it’s square to the target at just the right instant. And guess what? The woods are full of lost balls from these lost souls. The reason why this method doesn’t work should be obvious. Things are happening so fast at the moment of impact, there’s no way to expect in any predictable sense that the club will return to square at just the right instant time after time. The way the straight hitters keep the ball in play is by keeping the clubface SQUARE TO PLANE throughout their swing, which enables them more often than not to return the clubface square to the target line at the moment of truth. No manipulation of the clubface open and shut in blind faith that at that one-ten-thousandth of a second when impact happens a miracle will occur and the clubface will be square to the line. That’s just not how it’s done. I’ve known for some time now that this wrist rotation concept was nothing but fool’s gold. Two years ago, my instructor explained it to me, and sure enough — ever since I understood what the wrist cock (as opposed to wrist rotation) was all about, I suddenly was hitting the ball more consistently at my intended target. It’s rare, indeed, that I find myself losing golf balls because I’ve sprayed on into the trees. I may fail to make solid contact and lose one in a hazard short, or I may spin my fat ass out and come over the top and pull one dead left. But if I maintain center (as I preach in RSG constantly) and get my shoulders coiled in the backswing, I’ve got a pretty good idea of where the ball is going. But my word is no better than any of the other RSG swing gurus. So let me quote for you from a fascinating book I just finished reading called "Golf is My Game," by Robert Tyre (Bobby) Jones. This book has been out of print for some time, and I happened to find it on E-Bay. (If any of you are interested, it pops up from time to time in E-Bay. You’ll pay through the nose for it, but it’s worth every penny — especially the parts where he recounts his historic grand slam victories, gives a hole-by-hole description of Augusta National like only Bob Jones could and tells of his love affair with The Old Course at St. Andrews. But I digress.) In Chapter 5, "The Backswing," Jones addresses this subject of wrist rotation quite eloquently, and leaves little room for interpretation. Now before you go and argue that Jones played in an era of hickory shafts (which is true) making the golf swing’s physics quite different from today (which is also *partially* true), let me point out that this book was published in 1960 — long after steel shafts had become standard equipment, and after Ben Hogan had his famous declarations about pronation and suppination. After reading what Jones has to say, I can’t help but wonder if Hogan’s real "secret" was that he’d completely duped an entire generation of golfers with that most misleading information. Quoted from Jones — "In almost any discussion of the mechanics of the golf swing one is likely to hear frequent use of the word "pronation." Generally the controversy concerns whether or not the wrists should be pronated during the backswing. I have heard this sort of thing since I was a small boy. The most obvious fact revealed by recalling these discussions is that the participants had very little idea of the true meaning of the word "pronation" and merely confounded confusion by trying to apply to golf a word carrying a special meaning in another field. I have before me a copy of a book called "Applied Anatomy and Kinesiology" published by Lea and Febiger of Philadelphia in 1949. In this book it is explained that when either hand is extended in an approximately horizontal plane with the palm downward, the hand is said to be in a "prone" position and when by any means the hand is rotated toward this prone position, it is "pronated." The position of the hand with palm upward is called the "supine" position, and rotation toward this position is called "supination." Thus when we speak of "pronation of the wrists," we are talking about something that does not exist. Since the golf club is held in both hands, both hands cannot pronate at the same time while holding the club. Should either hand be pronated, the other must supinate. The actual fact is that in the correct golf swing there is very little pronation of the left hand or rotation of the left forearm during the backswing, and the effort to introduce either is about as harmful as anything a player can do. Reasons for the contrary impression are not difficult to find. It is certainly true that any position close to the halfway mark, either going up or coming down, exhibits the left hand, presenting its back approximately square to the front of the player, or very nearly at right angles to its position at address. It is not unnatural to assume (incorrectly) that this is in great measure the result of pronation of the left hand, and that it is in itself mainly responsible for opening and closing the face of the club. So we not uncommonly observe the average golfer beginning his backswing by a sudden pronation of the left hand, turning the palm downward and directing the club in a very flat arc around the knees. In this manner he conceives himself to be opening the face of the club, when in actual fact he is doing nothing more than removing all possibility of correct body movement. In a great majority of cases this sort of action is accompanied by a left shoulder that comes around too high and a movement of weight toward the left foot during the backswing. In the downswing, too, this misconception leads to trouble. For conceiving that in order to reclose the face in the act of hitting, the left hand must be turned back over, the player forces his left arm into his ribs in such a tight place that it must collapse. There used to be alot of talk about the right hand climbing over the left in the act of hitting, but it must be understood that this takes place only after impact when everything has relaxed after the hitting effort. There is one other reason why this pronation idea is so appealing. Any golfer will have been cautioned many times about the danger of yielding to the natural inclination to pick his club up abruptly from the ball. Pronation seems to be the opposite, so that it must be right. In truth, no independent action of the hands at the beginning of the backswing is correct, or at least likely to be correct, simply because if the swing should be started by the hands, the proper winding up of the trunk will never be undertaken." Jones said it better than anyone in RSG ever could. Randy One of the web’s most-visited personal golf websites Featured in USA TODAY, and in the USGA’s official publication, "Golf Journal" http://wwwgolfer.home.mindspring.com RSG Roll Call profile: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/brownr.htm
Response:
Just get your balance during your setup and feel that your balance is centered, and keep your balance centered throughout your swing. It stops me from overswinging, forcing me to swing within the limits of my flexibility. The balance goes in the backswing when I turn too much and my shoulders start to tilt towards the target (they should be on an angle with the spine away from the target). It relly feels like you are limitng your distance, and to a point you are, you are limiting yourself to your capabilites and not trying to play beyond them. You cannot get consistent when your are trying to play beyond your capabilites. Balance is a basic and you need to find it, feel it and learn how to keep it throughout your swing. Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Feel your center of gravity before you swing, and during your backswing, keep the spine angle constant. Don’t lose your center of gravity in your downswing until well after you have hit the ball. can you elaborate a bit more on how you feel your center of gravity.. i’m very interested in this.. do you feel it during a waggle? please tell me more.. Feel your balance. Rob Hi all.. I have found recently that i let my head travel too far forward (towards my left foot), resulting in a slice-with-driver/3wood – fade with irons. Can anyone suggest a swing thought – or drill — to get me to keep my head still – or at least stay behind the ball on my downswing.. thanks
Response:
Bobby Jones talks about this by referring to a player’s ability to "turn beneath himself." Jones was a proponent of the steady head. And while anal-retentive swing gurus will rightly point out that in a proper swing, the head does move laterally an inch or two, the sensation that a player experiences is pretty much that of staying in one place. The minute you start *trying* to effect this lateral movement of the head in the backswing, you’ll sure enough find yourself swaying. The problem you’ve described, Eric, is one I fight constantly. As a short player (5′7"), I’ve got short legs, making the often-prescribed wide stance feel a little like I’m doing the splits. It also makes it virtually impossible for me to get my hips through the shot. Recently, I’ve gone back to a narrower stance. This enables me to clear my hips a little easier, though the trade-off is that it also doesn’t provide quite the same resistance to lateral movement. I have to really be conscious of maintaining center or I’ll move off the ball lickety split in the takeaway. The same effect occurs in the downswing — as I shift to my left side, the narrower stance provides less resistance to swaying forward, and if I’m not careful, I’ll find myself getting ahead of the shot. The best trick I’ve found is one I learned several years ago, which is to think of keeping your eyes on the spot where the ball rests until after it’s gone. You’ll see pictures of pros with the ball long gone, and the club parallel to the ground in front of them "chasing" the ball (before it gets past waist-high in their follow-thru), yet their eyes are still on the spot where the ball was at rest before being hit. It isn’t until the club begins its move from waist-high up to shoulder level that the momentum of their follow-thru turns the shoulders sufficiently to bring the head up and around. This is a much better way to accomplish keeping a steady head than the old often-misconstrued "keep your head still" advice (which isn’t quite right anyway). "Keep your eyes on where the ball WAS" is what I like to think of. Because it’s hard to keep your eyes on ANYTHING if you head is moving, it tends (for me) to promote staying behind the ball. Randy http://wwwgolfer.home.mindspring.com RSG Roll Call profile: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/brownr.htm
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all.. I have found recently that i let my head travel too far forward (towards my left foot), resulting in a slice-with-driver/3wood – fade with irons. Can anyone suggest a swing thought – or drill — to get me to keep my head still – or at least stay behind the ball on my downswing.. thanks
Response:
First, make sure you are turning behind the ball in the backswing. If you are, the following two drills are very effective for getting the proper feel in the downswing. 1) Practice with the sun at your back so that your shadow is perpendicular to your target line. Place a ball on the ground in the middle of the shadow cast by your head while in the address position. Make practice swings while watching your shadow. Start your downswing by shifting your weight to your front foot, making sure that your head’s shadow does not move in front of the ball until after impact. 2) Imagine that there is a spike pointed at, and placed next to, your left ear. In the downswing, if your head moves forward you’ll have a spike in your ear. Make sure you are starting the downswing with the weight shift. —
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hi all.. I have found recently that i let my head travel too far forward (towards my left foot), resulting in a slice-with-driver/3wood – fade with irons. Can anyone suggest a swing thought – or drill — to get me to keep my head still – or at least stay behind the ball on my downswing.. thanks
Response:
Feel your center of gravity before you swing, and during your backswing, keep the spine angle constant. Don’t lose your center of gravity in your downswing until well after you have hit the ball. Feel your balance. Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all.. I have found recently that i let my head travel too far forward (towards my left foot), resulting in a slice-with-driver/3wood – fade with irons. Can anyone suggest a swing thought – or drill — to get me to keep my head still – or at least stay behind the ball on my downswing.. thanks
Response:
Hi all.. I have found recently that i let my head travel too far forward (towards my left foot), resulting in a slice-with-driver/3wood – fade with irons. Can anyone suggest a swing thought – or drill — to get me to keep my head still – or at least stay behind the ball on my downswing.. thanks
it’s a lot easier to do this off the tee, when you can place the ball the way you want to…put the logo facing away from the target then when you swing, make sure you keep as much of the logo in your sight as you had at address. If you move too far forward you’ll notice you’ll see less of the logo or maybe none of it. When you’re in the fairway (you won’t be in the rough, right?) it’s not quite so easy. Good luck! -Eric Ramon Portland, Oregon
Response:
Hi all.. I have found recently that i let my head travel too far forward (towards my left foot), resulting in a slice-with-driver/3wood – fade with irons. Can anyone suggest a swing thought – or drill — to get me to keep my head still – or at least stay behind the ball on my downswing.. thanks