Question:
What I think is dumb is someone (whose name isn’t Ben Crenshaw) thinking they know more about putting than Phil Mickelson. Oh, you mean like Dave Pelz?
I’m not so sure that Mr Pelz would welcome someone such as yourself interpreting his findings. It’s childs play to put degrees of hook or slice spin on a golf ball with a putter. That spin doesn’t remain on the ball after some distance. Bobby Locke imparted hook spin with an in-to-out motion. Billy Mayfair imparts slice spin with an out-to-in motion. Mickelson is currently switching from a blade to perimiter weighted flat stick because on any given day he feels comfortable with the differing angles of approach each stick promotes. The object is to get the ball in the hole – not to appear clever to half-wits such as yourself.
Response:
Does he hook the ball? No – it is possible on a pool table, but not a putting green.
Chalk & cheese. In billiards sidespin is correctly imparted by contacting either side of the balls vertical centre line – the stroke is piston-like. Not so in putting – unless you were using a training aid such as the Sergio Garcia Putterball. Shucks, the groups being overrun with SPAM.
Response:
"While there’s no such thing as hooking putts, it is possible to cut
across the path of one’s putts… Don’t think the cut stroke spins putts enough to make them slice across the green. The friction of the grass
takes all spin off of putts, the same as with hook-stroke putts." Butch Harmon said he has discussed with Tiger Woods that "feel is not the same as real". A lot of pros describe something about their game by how it feels to them. Some feel in the full swing they are "swinging the clubhead"; others that they are "using the large muscles of the body – the arms just follow along". While you might see differences between the swings of two players, you would probably not see any difference that would make you say "player A swings the clubhead while player B uses the body". Likewise, Phil has a feel about his puts and describes the stroke he feels. Does he hook the ball? No – it is possible on a pool table, but not a putting green. His description may be inaccurate, but I would not classify it as dumb. p.s. somewhat unrelated: There was a guy on Golf Channel Academy a couple of months ago (I believe his name was Mark Rabido sp?). His focus was on biomechanics and how the individual differences in how our bodies are put together should be taken into account in developing our golf swing. He showed a clip of Phil missing a put and said that in the earlier part of a round, Phil’s posture is good. In the later parts of a round, he hunches his back (kyphosis). This hunching prevents a pendulum swing and causes him to move his arms away from his body and push puts. This could be why he appears to some people to "choke" when he misses a 6 footer on the 17th. I know Pelz addresses posture, but I’ve not seen that specific explanation from Pelz.
Response:
A) Phil has been playing all his life and hopefully knows what he is talking about. B) Some amateur golfers take 40 or more putts a round so putters must be able to do weird things to golf balls.
Response:
Take a ball with a big logo or mark on it and putt with a inside-out or outside-in stroke and watch the spin. More than you would think and certainly enough to miss the hole. We have all seen the volcano effect where foot traffic has the hole sitting on a small mound. Any side spin on the ball will make it fall off the volcano away from the hole. Sure looks like a big hook or slice to me.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In my opinion, Phil just did not choose the right words. I’m sure he knows the putter does not put a significant spin on the ball to cause it to hook. But he was using the words hook loosly to mean going left.
Response:
He really sounds like a goofball sometimes when he talks about balls and stuff.
IMHO brother Mickelson is not quite the brightest bulb in the clubhouse…he has always struck me as goofy…and jesus god almighty with the fawning and the baby.,.no wonder he loses concentration…….waaaaaa give the baby the bottle ok phil…
Response:
I often put a right-to-left roll on my putts. It’s what caused me to move away from a Wilson 8802 putter. I know *exactly* what Phil is talking about, and I don’t think it’s dumb at all. What I think is dumb is someone (whose name isn’t Ben Crenshaw) thinking they know more about putting than Phil Mickelson.
Oh, you mean like Dave Pelz?
Response:
I disagree with you Jeff… it’s perfectly possible to put a right to left roll (or the reverse) on a putt without opening or closing the face of the putter. The stroke can be either inside out or the reverse, with the face remaining absolutely straight across the desired line of the putt. The ball will react to the putter’s motion, both the propulsion and the blade’s action at contact.
According to Pelz: "One of the more interesting putting techniques in golf history is the so-called "hook stroke" [used by Bobby Locke]. Many golfers have told me that Locke put hook spin on his putts… That may have been what both they and Locke though, but I’m sure it was not the case." "While there’s no such thing as hooking putts, it is possible to cut across the path of one’s putts… Don’t think the cut stroke spins putts enough to make them slice across the green. The friction of the grass takes all spin off of putts, the same as with hook-stroke putts." So you can’t disagree with me, you have to disagree with Pelz. If you want to disagree with me, then you can’t find anything odd about the fact that Mickelson works with Pelz, yet believes he puts hook rolls on his putts.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In my opinion, Phil just did not choose the right words. I’m sure he knows the putter does not put a significant spin on the ball to cause it to hook. But he was using the words hook loosly to mean going left. I think you chose to take what he said too literally and did not allow for reading between the lines as to what he really meant. I’m sure he has a very deep understanding about how to play the game. For instance, when he was talking about controlling the spin rates of the ball for aproach shots. I don’t think the average golfer thinks about that. These guys are under a microscope always having microphone shoved in their face. I’m sure they are mentally drained and just want to split by time they have to do these interviews.
I definitely agree with that last statement, and you might be totally correct Ike.
Response:
A little bit of physics would help this discussion. Horizontal spin on a ball rolling across the green doesn’t significantly change the path. If you hit down on the ball while imparting spin, you can make it curve to some extent – essentially the same way you can shoot a masse on a pool table – where the exact same principle applies. Joseph
Response:
The point of my last comment is that pure horizontal spin simply diminishes until the forward roll starts. The only way for a curve to occur is making that spin go vertical to some extent before the (completely) forward roll begins – and the stroke must be at least slightly downward to accomplish that. The putt differs from the billiard shot primarily because there is much less friction on the billiard table, so the pure forward roll doesn’t occur until much later. Joseph
Response:
Though i didn’t hear what was said – he was likely referring to the motion of using a blade putter. Which promotes a swinging gate action – that can be translated by a feel player as "hooky".
He said he puts a "hook roll" on his putts. I think he was very misleading to the viewers. He should have just said he opens and closes the face of his blade putter. When this causes him to pull his putts, he switches to the face balanced putter which stays more square throughout the stroke. And vice versa.
Response:
Thank You Don……some of these guys are unbelivevable….
You’re right – I should never be allowed to make on comment on anyone who’s a better golfer than me. Of course, for all you know, I’m a better golfer than you, so maybe you’re unbelievable too.
Response:
First, in his interview, Phil went off on some silly rant about "hooking" his putts with the "blade" putter. I thought Phil has worked some with Dave Pelz? He ought to know you can’t hook your putts – only close the face. He really sounds like a goofball sometimes when he talks about balls and putters and stuff. Then, Rick Smith is on. At first it sounds OK (he had a more conservative, rational view of what happens in Phil’s putting stroke), but then he left us with this little gem regarding Phil: "You don’t wanna get in his way when he wants to win."
Response:
First, in his interview, Phil went off on some silly rant about "hooking" his putts with the "blade" putter. I thought Phil has worked some with Dave Pelz? He ought to know you can’t hook your putts – only close the face. He really sounds like a goofball sometimes when he talks about balls and putters and stuff.
A goofball who apparently really knows his stuff, if you look at his success. Of course, he doesn’t play the way the old timers did, and can hit a ball backwards, etc.. Then, Rick Smith is on. At first it sounds OK (he had a more conservative, rational view of what happens in Phil’s putting stroke), but then he left us with this little gem regarding Phil: "You don’t wanna get in his way when he wants to win."
Dumb.
Response:
A goofball who apparently really knows his stuff, if you look at his success. Of course, he doesn’t play the way the old timers did, and can hit a ball backwards, etc..
I’m not sure I’d say that. I’d say he really knows how to play, but I wouldn’t say he really knows *why* things happen the way they do. That’s just like all of us, and he’s just going off his experience. But based on his comments about how the Pro V1s fly, I’d take his explanation with a grain of salt. I was really a little surprised though because I thought he had worked with Dave Pelz, but maybe not.
Response:
grain of salt. I was really a little surprised though because I thought he had worked with Dave Pelz, but maybe not.
You were definitely right about that–he did work with Pelz. I saw Pelz discussing it on TGC one night. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
Response:
First, in his interview, Phil went off on some silly rant about "hooking" his putts with the "blade" putter. I thought Phil has worked some with Dave Pelz? He ought to know you can’t hook your putts – only close the face. He really sounds like a goofball sometimes when he talks about balls and putters and stuff.
Though i didn’t hear what was said – he was likely referring to the motion of using a blade putter. Which promotes a swinging gate action – that can be translated by a feel player as "hooky". Rick Smith is without doubt one of the game’s better coaches. An excellent communicator well tuned to imparting the feel of the golf swing. Phuck the fysics in this case. I like Mickelson’s chances tomorrow. If there was ever a major set-up made for him – this is it. He also looks to be a C cup this week as opposed to his usual D.
Response:
He also looks to be a C cup this week as opposed to his usual D.
That can cause serious loss of form if you don’t make adjustments… — F.
Response:
First, in his interview, Phil went off on some silly rant about "hooking" his putts with the "blade" putter. I thought Phil has worked some with Dave Pelz? He ought to know you can’t hook your putts – only close the face. He really sounds like a goofball sometimes when he talks about balls and putters and stuff.
It amazes me how someone like yourself can find fault and call someone like Phil a goofball. He is, I think, the number 2 rated player in the world and you think that he is Dumb? I would bet that he knows what a hook is and uses the term to describe the way he is swinging his putter. When are you joining the tour? Don D.
Response:
In my opinion, Phil just did not choose the right words. I’m sure he knows the putter does not put a significant spin on the ball to cause it to hook. But he was using the words hook loosly to mean going left. I think you chose to take what he said too literally and did not allow for reading between the lines as to what he really meant. I’m sure he has a very deep understanding about how to play the game. For instance, when he was talking about controlling the spin rates of the ball for aproach shots. I don’t think the average golfer thinks about that. These guys are under a microscope always having microphone shoved in their face. I’m sure they are mentally drained and just want to split by time they have to do these interviews.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Though i didn’t hear what was said – he was likely referring to the motion of using a blade putter. Which promotes a swinging gate action – that can be translated by a feel player as "hooky". He said he puts a "hook roll" on his putts. I think he was very misleading to the viewers. He should have just said he opens and closes the face of his blade putter. When this causes him to pull his putts, he switches to the face balanced putter which stays more square throughout the stroke. And vice versa.
Response:
First, in his interview, Phil went off on some silly rant about "hooking" his putts with the "blade" putter. I thought Phil has worked some with Dave Pelz? He ought to know you can’t hook your putts – only close the face. He really sounds like a goofball sometimes when he talks about balls and putters and stuff. (CLIP) I disagree with you Jeff… it’s perfectly possible to put a right to left roll (or the reverse) on a putt without opening or closing the face of the putter. The stroke can be either inside out or the reverse, with the face remaining absolutely straight across the desired line of the putt. The ball will react to the putter’s motion, both the propulsion and the blade’s action at contact.
I often put a right-to-left roll on my putts. It’s what caused me to move away from a Wilson 8802 putter. I know *exactly* what Phil is talking about, and I don’t think it’s dumb at all. What I think is dumb is someone (whose name isn’t Ben Crenshaw) thinking they know more about putting than Phil Mickelson. Jeff Rogers http://www.rogersnetwork.com/
Response:
First, in his interview, Phil went off on some silly rant about "hooking" his putts with the "blade" putter. I thought Phil has worked some with Dave Pelz? He ought to know you can’t hook your putts – only close the face. He really sounds like a goofball sometimes when he talks about balls and putters and stuff.
(CLIP) I disagree with you Jeff… it’s perfectly possible to put a right to left roll (or the reverse) on a putt without opening or closing the face of the putter. The stroke can be either inside out or the reverse, with the face remaining absolutely straight across the desired line of the putt. The ball will react to the putter’s motion, both the propulsion and the blade’s action at contact.
Response:
Thank You Don……some of these guys are unbelivevable….
Response:
It amazes me how someone like yourself can find fault and call someone like Phil a goofball. He is, I think, the number 2 rated player in the world and you think that he is Dumb? I would bet that he knows what a hook is and uses the term to describe the way he is swinging his putter. When are you joining the tour?
Actually Don, you’re partially making my point for me. It’s perfectly possible for someone to be one of the greatest players in the world and still be dumb. I’m not saying he’s dumb – I said these were dumb comments (one from him, one from Rick Smith.) I contend he doesn’t know what he’s talking about when it comes to hooking putts. He can certainly play better than me. This is such a cliche Don. As soon as someone criticizes a great player, ask them when they are joining the tour. If I’m not better, then I should just shut up? Well, is Dave Pelz joining the tour anytime soon? How about Rick Smith? I think you realize you’ve completely missed the point. He said he puts "hook roll" on his putts. I say he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. He’s a great putter, but he doesn’t know why. Hey, nothing wrong with that. Ignorance is bliss.