Question:

I picked him in a pool, where the heck did he get to? Hal Sutton will win the Players Championship.

Response:

He has had tendinitis(sp) in his shoulder and has been taking it easy gearing up for The Players. He is coming on strong shotting -8 after 36. He has reported in the Jacksonville paper that he is feeling no pain in the shoulder this week. dan in jax

Response:

When you’re Tiger Woods or David Duval, SOMEONE is going to make money whenever you play golf.  Tiger and David might as well get a share. Brett Favre and Mark McGwire could play their respective sports for $10 an hour, but would their ball clubs and stadiums and merchandisers and broadcasters slash their prices as a result?  You think?   -joseph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As a matter of fact, I don’t think it’s your or my place to ask how much more money an athlete needs, because a)we all would accept it if it were offered to us, and b)it’s none of our damn business!!

Response:

So tell us Rob..how do you really feel about journalists????  ;^)Lorry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PS– sometimes information can really change your view– I used to like Azinger before reading A GOOD WALK SPOILED.  Now I think he is a real jerk and like to see him lose (although I wouldn’t have wished his illness on anybody!).  Brad Faxon only becomes more of a favorite the more I learn. What was it in the book that made you think Azinger is a jerk?  I’ve read it a few times, and I don’t really get that, but I’d be interested to hear your take on it. I don’t want to say in the NG because it will start yet another off-topic thread. Although I enjoyed the book, it was clear Feinstein had to pander a bit to "his" players, which was a disappointment.  When he wrote about anybody else (e.g.. the PGA tour commisioner) it was much more interesting and balanced.  If anybody knows of similar books that are better (not that Feinstein’s was bad) let me know… While Azinger may be a jerk in any event, Felsenstein comes across as a total jerk, as do most such "reporters". Such books cannot sell without "juicy" parts that are usually semi fictional "interpretations; actual reality is too boring….a bunch of guys who play golf for a living and who are no more entertaining, good, bad, etc. than any such cross section of individuals…but they are in some public spotlight, so carrion feeders feed off them becuase they lack the talent to report on the actual events or make honest commentary without resorting to inflamatory "interpretations"….or perhaps Felsenstein and the like can generate an income via some means other than feeding off the notoriety of others by generating half truths to hawk as interesting stories about  the public figure? Maybe I’m getting too jaded, but I could care less about such garbage. You might like the book about Rich Beem, it is of the same ilk…even uses truely moronic sexual imagery on the cover to try to sell the "book". Rob

Response:

Basically he seems like somebody I’d enjoy golfing with, unlike most pros. 1. He is always sportmanlike and mellow on the course 2. He lives by the short game, and seems willing to break with     convention.  For example, he has a lot of loft on his putter– maybe     the most on the PGA tour.  He also suggests swaying a little on long     putts!  I like pros who are not "created" by a coach.  Although on his     long game… 3. He married a woman with children (for love) rather than some     trophy wife (for status). 4. He is pretty funny (or was on Rotella’s tape and in the skills challenge     where it is ok to razz people). 5. Shows his emotions, but no tantrums 6. In many ways a grinder– I like them There is a dearth of coverage on him.  Perhaps because he doesn’t often win :^). Pete – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter, could you elaborate on your Brad Faxon remark?  His name is never mentioned here on rsg, yet my 11- yo grandson thinks the sun rises & sets on him, and chose to follow Brad all day during the AT&T rather than follow Tiger…..

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PS– sometimes information can really change your view– I used to like Azinger before reading A GOOD WALK SPOILED.  Now I think he is a real jerk and like to see him lose (although I wouldn’t have wished his illness on anybody!).  Brad Faxon only becomes more of a favorite the more I learn. What was it in the book that made you think Azinger is a jerk?  I’ve read it a few times, and I don’t really get that, but I’d be interested to hear your take on it. I don’t want to say in the NG because it will start yet another off-topic thread. <clip How could a post about a pro golfer be OT?

If it were a personal attack which had nothing to do with golf or his golfing abilities… — Eliyahu Rooff www.geocities.com/Area51/Underworld/8096/HomePage.htm RSG Rollcall http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/rooffe.htm

Response:

How could a post about a pro golfer be OT? If it were a personal attack which had nothing to do with golf or his golfing abilities…

Duval – a man of great indistinction The world’s No1 golfer has all the charisma of a packet of wooden tees, writes RICHARD HINDS. Here is the thing with David Duval: he doesn’t have one. A thing, that is. A defining characteristic. Something that sets him apart from Esteban Toledo, Frank Lickliter and the other Tour-droids who are now digging trenches on the practice fairway in the hope of walking in Duval’s spikes. Duval is one of the longest hitters on the US PGA Tour, but the cosmonauts on Mir don’t have to put on their helmets like they do when John Daly and Tiger Woods pull out their drivers. He has a swing that is a tap-in from perfect, but the golf geeks still train their camcorders on the treacle-smooth actions of Steve Elkington and Ernie Els. He makes more than his share of putts, but Duval doesn’t possess the velvet touch of a young Ben Crenshaw. So what makes him the best golfer in the world? There are numbers. Greens hit in regulation: 73.6 per cent. Putts per round: 28.39. Average driving distance: 287.5 metres. Scoring average: 68.22 strokes. For those who can make sense of golf’s fine print, these figures represent a compelling argument that Duval is the best thing since the hickory shaft. For the rest of us, they are a pretty effective cure for insomnia. And, cruel as it seems, so is Duval. You see, the player who has won 11 of his past 34 tournaments has all the charisma of a packet of wooden tees. The man who next Monday morning could be wrapped in Augusta green will remain, underneath, Pete Sampras beige. Indeed, in the hugely respected, universally unloved Sampras, Duval has a sporting soulmate. Rarely have two athletes done so much to inspire so few. Think about it. How many kids are out there grooving their ground-strokes hoping to be the next Sampras? Working to be as successful as Sampras, certainly, but to be really like him? Thomas Muster has inspired more wan-abees. Similarly, next time you’re at the driving range, don’t expect to hear a six-year-old with a cut-down five-iron say: "Please Daddy, can I wear a pair of wrap-arounds, a non-descript shirt and slacks and have a painted-on grimace just like David Duval?" Which, as always, says more about us than it does about Duval or Sampras. About how, as much as we appreciate sporting perfection, we actually find it easier to digest with a spoonful of fashionable good looks, impish humour or the odd tantrum. Duval’s heinous crime is not being Tiger Woods, just as Sampras has been tried and convicted of wilfully refusing to be John McEnroe. In Duval’s case, the faceless man persona is particularly unfair. He is, after all, one of golf’s best human interest stories. He was the eight-year-old kid who donated bone marrow hoping to save the life of his brother who suffered from aplastic anaemia, and who became a teenage recluse, hiding on the practice fairway after his brother died. But, unlike John Daly who will cry into any microphone about his battle with alcohol – on one lamentable occasion, Long John even sang a hard-drinkin’ man’s blues number and played the guitar – Duval does not like to share his story. He just likes to play golf. And frown. Which is how he made shooting 59 seem as exciting as 18 holes with John Howard. Of course, there was another pretty good prospect a few decades back who wasn’t on the best of terms with the camera lens. The galleries taunted him because of his appearance and jeered him when he beat their idol. He had some game, though, and he stuck around to win a few tournaments. Went by the name of Jack Nicklaus.

Response:

Peter, could you elaborate on your Brad Faxon remark?  His name is never mentioned here on rsg, yet my 11- yo grandson thinks the sun rises & sets on him, and chose to follow Brad all day during the AT&T rather than follow Tiger….. Thanks, flady (wish I could get a poster/picture of Brad Faxon to send to my g/son, but maybe none are made.)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As a matter of fact, I don’t think it’s your or my place to ask how much more money an athlete needs, because a)we all would accept it if it were offered to us, and b)it’s none of our damn business!!  It’s not our name that goes on or doesn’t go on major championship trophies.  If Duval or anyone else lowers their major chances through these days it’s no skin off our backs.  It’s Duval who had the chance and didn’t get his name on there. Instead of criticizing someone for being successful and reaping the rewards, why not congratulate him for being successful, and figure out a way to achieve the same level of success in your chosen endeavor for yourself? Pro golf is an entertainment business.  Those of us who are fans get to have fun partially by having favorite and un-favorite players, which means it is entirely my place to second-guess all on- and off-course behaviors.  That’s part of the fun. These guys are celebreties whether they like it or not.  Tell me watching Daly would be as fun if we had no idea about his personal demons. Pete PS– sometimes information can really change your view– I used to like Azinger before reading A GOOD WALK SPOILED.  Now I think he is a real jerk and like to see him lose (although I wouldn’t have wished his illness on anybody!). Brad Faxon only becomes more of a favorite the more I learn.

Response:

(wish I could get a poster/picture of Brad Faxon to send to my g/son, but maybe none are made.)

Couldn’t find a poster, but there are som (not great) pictures out there: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1118070093 http://www.finalshot.com/golffpg.asp Pete

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – How could a post about a pro golfer be OT? If it were a personal attack which had nothing to do with golf or his golfing abilities… Duval – a man of great indistinction

<lengthy personal criticism of Duval snipped So why are you telling us this? — Eliyahu Rooff www.geocities.com/Area51/Underworld/8096/HomePage.htm RSG Rollcall http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/rooffe.htm

Response:

Then my guess is it has something to do with him speaking his mind about Clinton then….unless I totally missed something, it’s the only time he does anything that someone would maybe take issue with(although it’s funny how some doing it about Clinton is being a jerk but not someone who is doing about Bush…)

Sorry– I should have just said it or not brought it up.  My bad. Nope– the Clinton thing is not it– I seem to recall Zinger’s dad had been in Viet Nam and  thus he didn’t want to "shake hands with a draft dodger".  I like a guy that speaks his mind– liked that about Stewart too before he got too PR-saavy.  It will be interesting if Zinger changes his tune about draft dodgers now that a new one is in the white house…. It was his view that the rich such as himself were the most productive members of society, and thus should be rewarded for their productivity not penalized with income taxes.  I’d be interested to hear if Goydos thinks he is "more productive" now that he is a rich pro golfer instead of a teacher in the inner city.  Not that I have anything against rich people– as the old joke goes I plan to be one some day. But damned if I’ll resent paying more taxes than a school teacher, especially if I make my $$ in the entertainment business like Zinger does!   And if I do resent taxes I will at least be honest and not imagine my money is a measure of my productivity!!! Pete

Response:

So David Duval’s bad play is on account of his new Nike clubs? Is that confirmed? Also, I truly doubt TW is using the Nike blades.  If he were, it’d have been widely publicized by now. TW is playing Nike blades.

You sure about that?  Last I checked he’s still playing Titleist blades. Steve

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PS– sometimes information can really change your view– I used to like Azinger before reading A GOOD WALK SPOILED.  Now I think he is a real jerk and like to see him lose (although I wouldn’t have wished his illness on anybody!).  Brad Faxon only becomes more of a favorite the more I learn. What was it in the book that made you think Azinger is a jerk?  I’ve read it a few times, and I don’t really get that, but I’d be interested to hear your take on it. I don’t want to say in the NG because it will start yet another off-topic thread. Although I enjoyed the book, it was clear Feinstein had to pander a bit to "his" players, which was a disappointment.  When he wrote about anybody else (e.g.. the PGA tour commisioner) it was much more interesting and balanced.  If anybody knows of similar books that are better (not that Feinstein’s was bad) let me know…

While Azinger may be a jerk in any event, Felsenstein comes across as a total jerk, as do most such "reporters". Such books cannot sell without "juicy" parts that are usually semi fictional "interpretations; actual reality is too boring….a bunch of guys who play golf for a living and who are no more entertaining, good, bad, etc. than any such cross section of individuals…but they are in some public spotlight, so carrion feeders feed off them becuase they lack the talent to report on the actual events or make honest commentary without resorting to inflamatory "interpretations"….or perhaps Felsenstein and the like can generate an income via some means other than feeding off the notoriety of others by generating half truths to hawk as interesting stories about  the public figure? Maybe I’m getting too jaded, but I could care less about such garbage. You might like the book about Rich Beem, it is of the same ilk…even uses truely moronic sexual imagery on the cover to try to sell the "book". Rob

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It doesn’t bother me if DD or TW can sign a contract worth millions if Nike or whoever pays them for endorsement…. On the tour the bottom line is how do they play… Golf is one of the few pro sports where you get paid exactly what you earn… A breath of fresh air, actually, in an era when guys make whatever A Rod or whoever makes his millions win or lose. BUT…and its a big but…. if DD or TW signs a 10 yr contract for 20mil and then a year later whines about how they want to renegotiate cause the other guy just signed for 40mil…that just pisses me off…. do you suppose DD or TW would offer to renegotiate their 10 year contract if for some reason they got the yips and became the laughing stock of the tour…I don’t think so Tim…. How come if I sign a contract to build some guy a garage I can’t renegotiate when it appears I’m not gonna make as much money as Joe down the street???? How come a contract is only a contract ifthe athlete is in the twilight of his career??? If I was Titleist..I’d say "tough one David…I guess you should of signed a one year deal….next time get a better agent"

FWIW, Titleist had a rep on the telecast Thursday who said the method of separation(for lack of a better term) was what in question, not the fact that he wanted out of the contract. ….

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PS– sometimes information can really change your view– I used to like Azinger before reading A GOOD WALK SPOILED.  Now I think he is a real jerk and like to see him lose (although I wouldn’t have wished his illness on anybody!).  Brad Faxon only becomes more of a favorite the more I learn. What was it in the book that made you think Azinger is a jerk?  I’ve read it a few times, and I don’t really get that, but I’d be interested to hear your take on it. I don’t want to say in the NG because it will start yet another off-topic thread.

Then my guess is it has something to do with him speaking his mind about Clinton then….unless I totally missed something, it’s the only time he does anything that someone would maybe take issue with(although it’s funny how some doing it about Clinton is being a jerk but not someone who is doing about Bush…) Although I enjoyed the book, it was clear Feinstein had to pander a bit to "his" players, which was a disappointment.  When he wrote about anybody else (e.g.. the PGA tour commisioner) it was much more interesting and balanced.  If anybody knows of similar books that are better (not that Feinstein’s was bad) let me know…

I didn’t find he pandered so much to his players.  I can see where he had to word things a little differently bceause they might never talk to him again, but it’s not like he glossed over or totally avoided something bad that occurred. For whatever reason, my favorite part of the book was the stories about how the guys met their wives(Billy Andrade in particular).  I don’t know why, but that was my favorite part.

Response:

So David Duval’s bad play is on account of his new Nike clubs? Is that confirmed? Also, I truly doubt TW is using the Nike blades.  If he were, it’d have been widely publicized by now.

Response:

So David Duval’s bad play is on account of his new Nike clubs? Is that confirmed? Also, I truly doubt TW is using the Nike blades.  If he were, it’d have been widely publicized by now.

TW is playing Nike blades. Rob

Response:

  I am just sick and tired of how the announcers talk about how DD is upset about his 20 zillion dollar contract he wants out of so he can now have a 40 zillion dollar contract. With the kind of money he was already making the only thing on his mind should be winning. He should worry about his performance the money will follow. Tiger knows….

Response:

As a matter of fact, I don’t think it’s your or my place to ask how much more money an athlete needs, because a)we all would accept it if it were offered to us, and b)it’s none of our damn business!!  It’s not our name that goes on or doesn’t go on major championship trophies.  If Duval or anyone else lowers their major chances through these days it’s no skin off our backs.  It’s Duval who had the chance and didn’t get his name on there. Instead of criticizing someone for being successful and reaping the rewards, why not congratulate him for being successful, and figure out a way to achieve the same level of success in your chosen endeavor for yourself?

Pro golf is an entertainment business.  Those of us who are fans get to have fun partially by having favorite and un-favorite players, which means it is entirely my place to second-guess all on- and off-course behaviors.  That’s part of the fun. These guys are celebreties whether they like it or not.  Tell me watching Daly would be as fun if we had no idea about his personal demons. Pete PS– sometimes information can really change your view– I used to like Azinger before reading A GOOD WALK SPOILED.  Now I think he is a real jerk and like to see him lose (although I wouldn’t have wished his illness on anybody!).  Brad Faxon only becomes more of a favorite the more I learn.

Response:

PS– sometimes information can really change your view– I used to like Azinger before reading A GOOD WALK SPOILED.  Now I think he is a real jerk and like to see him lose (although I wouldn’t have wished his illness on anybody!).  Brad Faxon only becomes more of a favorite the more I learn.

What was it in the book that made you think Azinger is a jerk?  I’ve read it a few times, and I don’t really get that, but I’d be interested to hear your take on it.

Response:

It doesn’t bother me if DD or TW can sign a contract worth millions if Nike or whoever pays them for endorsement…. On the tour the bottom line is how do they play… Golf is one of the few pro sports where you get paid exactly what you earn… A breath of fresh air, actually, in an era when guys make whatever A Rod or whoever makes his millions win or lose. BUT…and its a big but…. if DD or TW signs a 10 yr contract for 20mil and then a year later whines about how they want to renegotiate cause the other guy just signed for 40mil…that just pisses me off…. do you suppose DD or TW would offer to renegotiate their 10 year contract if for some reason they got the yips and became the laughing stock of the tour…I don’t think so Tim…. How come if I sign a contract to build some guy a garage I can’t renegotiate when it appears I’m not gonna make as much money as Joe down the street???? How come a contract is only a contract ifthe athlete is in the twilight of his career??? If I was Titleist..I’d say "tough one David…I guess you should of signed a one year deal….next time get a better agent" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –   I am just sick and tired of how the announcers talk about how DD is upset about his 20 zillion dollar contract he wants out of so he can now have a 40 zillion dollar contract. With the kind of money he was already making the only thing on his mind should be winning. He should worry about his performance the money will follow. Tiger knows….

Response:

PS– sometimes information can really change your view– I used to like Azinger before reading A GOOD WALK SPOILED.  Now I think he is a real jerk and like to see him lose (although I wouldn’t have wished his illness on anybody!).  Brad Faxon only becomes more of a favorite the more I learn. What was it in the book that made you think Azinger is a jerk?  I’ve read it a few times, and I don’t really get that, but I’d be interested to hear your take on it.

I don’t want to say in the NG because it will start yet another off-topic thread. Although I enjoyed the book, it was clear Feinstein had to pander a bit to "his" players, which was a disappointment.  When he wrote about anybody else (e.g.. the PGA tour commisioner) it was much more interesting and balanced.  If anybody knows of similar books that are better (not that Feinstein’s was bad) let me know… Pete

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PS– sometimes information can really change your view– I used to like Azinger before reading A GOOD WALK SPOILED.  Now I think he is a real jerk and like to see him lose (although I wouldn’t have wished his illness on anybody!).  Brad Faxon only becomes more of a favorite the more I learn. What was it in the book that made you think Azinger is a jerk?  I’ve read it a few times, and I don’t really get that, but I’d be interested to hear your take on it. I don’t want to say in the NG because it will start yet another off-topic thread.

<clip How could a post about a pro golfer be OT? "Someone likes every shot" bk Please: no spam, off topic, or crossposts as explained in the RSG FAQ: at  http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html

Response:

  I can`t agree more with you. Just how much more money do these guys need? Why don`t they worry about winning a little more and there contracts a little less. Besides, hearing about these guys with 7million dollar a year contracts makes me want to by the product even less.

Response:

  I can`t agree more with you. Just how much more money do these guys need? Why don`t they worry about winning a little more and there contracts a little less. Besides, hearing about these guys with 7million dollar a year contracts makes me want to by the product even less.

Not that I expect "how much more money do these guys need" to understand, but you have to remember unlike the team sports players, travel and food etc. is not paid for by anybody.  You can estimate a bare-bones travel budget for 30 tournaments to be $75,000(based on Lee Trevino talking about the senior tour in a GD article in 1995 or 96….may not include a caddie). Also, while a football player still gets paid even if he goes 0-16, Duval (or anyone else)is not guaranteed one red cent from tournaments.  He has to go out each week and beat half the field to even earn a check.  He probably has a business adviser, and one or two other people in his employ.  He may support a large amountof his family, and you don’t know how much of that he gives to charity. As a matter of fact, I don’t think it’s your or my place to ask how much more money an athlete needs, because a)we all would accept it if it were offered to us, and b)it’s none of our damn business!!  It’s not our name that goes on or doesn’t go on major championship trophies.  If Duval or anyone else lowers their major chances through these days it’s no skin off our backs.  It’s Duval who had the chance and didn’t get his name on there. Instead of criticizing someone for being successful and reaping the rewards, why not congratulate him for being successful, and figure out a way to achieve the same level of success in your chosen endeavor for yourself?

Response:

He ought to drop trying to use the Nike stuff and go back to his old 962 DCIs and use the new Titleist ball instead of trying to be a junior Tiger and becoming a Nike man for nothing more than money. How much money has he already lost due to using clubs he can’t get used to. I don’t know if Tiger is using these new Nike blades, but it sure isn’t helping his game if he is. Next they’ll piss off their friends who have worked with them to make custom Vokey wedges and Cameron putters. The only good side of these two not playing as good as we know they can play, is that lots of good players are coming back to the forefront and playing very well.

Response:

Another thing. Duval won the Mercedes this year at KapaluaPlantationCourse on a hilltop in Maui. That course introduces all kinds of conditions with the Trade & Kona winds and the rains. I would say it is probably unique in all of big-time tournament golf.

So, a tropical target course in the USA? What about Japan, Asia, United Kingdom, Europe, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Paraguay … ? Cheers Colin Wilson Trentham Golf Club http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham

Response:

If you don’t think Duval is the best right now, I have a bridge I’d like to sell you.

I think I said he is justifiably ranked No. 1. But the world doesn’t end at the US border, even at Hawaii. I reckon there are two components to being the "world’s best": 1. beating all your world-ranked peers, and 2. winning on a wide variety of world courses and conditions. So far Duval has magnificently achieved the first, and failed rather dismally at the latter, partly because he hardly ever travels outside of the USA (and Hawaii). Send him down to Royal Melbourne and see how he goes. Oh, he already has … oops, sorry All modern day "-isms" are part and parcel of the repressive dogma of PoliticalCorrectness.

You’re just confirming what I thought. People who can’t come to grips with removing bias and being nice to *all* people, fix any view contrary to their own by labelling it perjoratively "Politically Correct", as if that disposes of it. The cry of "political correctness" is often just mouthed by thoughtless reactionaries. I never said that Tiger wasn’t capable of being great. He is making progress, but until he learns to carry himself like a champion, he won’t get a whiff of greatness.

I understand in his college days (about Tiger’s age now) that Duval was a bit feisty, with macho talk of "whipping opponents butts". He’s got over it and (apparently) turned into a really nice guy. Cheers Colin Wilson Trentham Golf Club http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham

Response:

Another thing. Duval won the Mercedes this year at KapaluaPlantationCourse on a hilltop in Maui. That course introduces all kinds of conditions with the Trade & Kona winds and the rains. I would say it is probably unique in all of big-time tournament golf. Ken

<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -While we’re at it, I’ll throw another *opinion* into the ring. Duval might be justifiably *ranked* the world’s best golfer, but he’s not the best in the world until he demonstrates that he can win *anywhere* in the world, the way Jack, Arnie, Gary and Greg used to, not just on the familiar (target) golf courses of the US. How’s that for bias? Cheers Colin Wilson Trentham Golf Club http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham

Response:

If you don’t think Duval is the best right now, I have a bridge I’d like to sell you. The original poster is this thread is the one who invoked racism. All modern day  "-isms" are part and parcel of the repressive dogma of PoliticalCorrectness. I never said that Tiger wasn’t capable of being great. He is making progress, but until he learns to carry himself like a champion, he won’t get a whiff of greatness. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here we go with more PoliticalCorrectness. Haqve you forgotten all of Tiger’s temper tantrums and displays of arrogance ? Not to mention the hype. It is possible to dislike a minority person without having a sinister racial agenda. And the problem with using "political correctness" is that it becomes a very easy label to apply to any argument you don’t like without having to argue your own contentions. I don’t understand you Americans sometimes. Why do you have to take sides? Why can’t you appreciate both Tiger and David as both being great golfers, as Paul (IMHO) was most rationally pointing out?

<snip

Response:

Here we go with more PoliticalCorrectness. Haqve you forgotten all of Tiger’s temper tantrums and displays of arrogance ? Not to mention the hype. It is possible to dislike a minority person without having a sinister racial agenda.

And the problem with using "political correctness" is that it becomes a very easy label to apply to any argument you don’t like without having to argue your own contentions. I don’t understand you Americans sometimes. Why do you have to take sides? Why can’t you appreciate both Tiger and David as both being great golfers, as Paul (IMHO) was most rationally pointing out? Hell, it would be like Australians having a running battle over Steve Elkington and Greg Norman. And don’t tell me one of them hasn’t been hyped . While we’re at it, I’ll throw another *opinion* into the ring. Duval might be justifiably *ranked* the world’s best golfer, but he’s not the best in the world until he demonstrates that he can win *anywhere* in the world, the way Jack, Arnie, Gary and Greg used to, not just on the familiar (target) golf courses of the US. How’s that for bias? Cheers Colin Wilson Trentham Golf Club http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham

Response:

Here we go with more PoliticalCorrectness. Haqve you forgotten all of Tiger’s temper tantrums and displays of arrogance ?

Easily matched by others on the Tour. Not to mention this newsgroup. Not to mention the hype.

Hype is a part of life in this age. It is possible to dislike a minority person without having a sinister racial agenda.

True. It’s also possible not to make an ass of yourself by parading your double standards in front of the world, and holding others to standards you don’t adhere to yourself. —    "Excuse me… I do believe that sucked ass."                                         -Eric Cartman

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If you haven’t figured out by now that Tiger isn’t all that great!  He only does well because he’s got yobbo fans that move immovable objects(namely boulders) in his road away so he can have a nice easy shot! Besides he can’t even play a good links course.  He’s too used to those soft American greens and courses.

Ummmm.  Excuse me.  He finished 3rd at the British Open last year, just a stroke out of the playoff between O’Meara and Watts.  I believe you would call that a "good links course." Randy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it me, or is Duval winning like Tiger was supposed to? Ya’ gotta love this guy!

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Here we go with more PoliticalCorrectness. Haqve you forgotten all of Tiger’s temper tantrums and displays of arrogance ? Not to mention the hype. It is possible to dislike a minority person without having a sinister racial agenda. Ken The whole debate about who is better, Tiger vs. Duval, is very sorely misplaced.  You’re going to have to let history tell its own tale over time.

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Douglas Diermann wrote … Is it me, or is Duval winning like Tiger was supposed to?

Before we go writing off Tiger Woods, consider the following: Coming in to the 1999 season, David Duval had a full year more under his belt than Tiger.  If they were both 33 years old, that would be meaningless, but we’re talking about Tiger entering just his third full year on TOUR. Here’s the record… Duval didn’t win a tournament until the end of his FIFTH year on TOUR (his THIRD *FULL* year on TOUR). Duval: 1993 — 5 tournaments — 0 wins 1994 — 6 tournaments — 0 wins 1995 — 26 tournaments — 0 wins 1996 — 23 tournaments — 0 wins 1997 — 26 tournaments — 0 wins then BANG, BANG, BANG… 1997’s final three tournaments — 3 wins 1998 — 4 more wins Tiger 1996 — 8 tournaments — 2 wins 1997 — 21 tournaments — 4 wins, including 1 major 1998 — 20 tournaments — 1 win (plus one international win) 1998: Duval — 4 wins Tiger — 1 win No question who’s the hotter player right now.  No question who’s the better player right now. But let’s be absolutely clear here… This week’s Masters Tournament will mark Tiger Woods’ 58th tournament entered since turning pro.  He has nine career wins, a major, Rookie of the Year in ‘97 and Player of the Year in ‘98 (his first full year on TOUR). When David Duval was playing in his 58th career PGA TOUR event, he still had 28 more tournaments to go (more than he’s played in any single year) before capturing his first win.  If memory serves, that was back in the days when he was being talked about — even in this newsgroup — as being a choker, a player who couldn’t win, etc., etc., blah, blah, blah, ad nauseum.  How quickly we forget. Obviously, the golfing gods had something else in mind than what the all-knowing, all-seeing psychics of RSG were reading in their crystal golf balls. Duval is having a Johnny Miller-esque season, no question about it.  He’ll win his share of majors.  If he only wins one, he’ll be a lock for the Hall of Fame, and he may get in even if he doesn’t win a major (though who doubts that he will?).  He’s the best player in the world right now, and no one in their right mind would say otherwise.  The streak he’s on is phenomenal. But it’s still a little early to be comparing Duval’s and Woods’ careers as if we’re writing an epitaph.  And it’s certainly a little premature to be writing off Mr. Woods as a "flash in the pan." Give them both another year or twenty.  Then these comparisons will actually mean something. Randy

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Scott and downy both made comments related to Nike marketing hype that has unrealistically raised expectations for Tiger’s performance.  I’m sure you guys are right about that being one of the factors (though it doesn’t resolve for me whether there’s just hypocrisy or, in fact, some bias, towards Tiger).  But it is interesting also to ponder the possibility that Nike saw Tiger as their new Michael Jordan.  Who, other than Tiger, could play the role in sports marketing that Michael has?  Who else in sports today has as much charisma?  It only makes sense that Nike would try to position themselves in preparation for Michael’s retirement.  And if they bet heavily on someone young who turns out to have longevity in the sport, they win big time — if Tiger wins big time.  If, as seems might be true, Tiger did spend too much time on marketing in the first 12-18 months after signing with Nike, maybe we’ve seen only a shadow of what he can actually do. Another point you were getting at, Scott, seemed to be that the more serious you are as a golfer, the less likely you are to take the hype seriously.  That does seem to tie into the fact that people like Fred and me (we’re fans of Julius Boros), and our senior partner Loudon are watching for the love of the game.  The older you get, and the more you learn about how to play (or in my case how not to play) the game, and the wiser and more mature you get about life in general, and therefore the more good advice you have to give out for free to all those young whippersnappers who still aren’t listening, the more likely you are to enjoy whoever is playing well — all the while still wishing it was you out there. So isn’t it incredible the relentless consistency that Duval brings to golf!?!  I believe that I haven’t seen anything comparable to it in the last 40 years, though I’ve read descriptions about Hogan that suggest something similar.  I did have the same feeling of inevitability watching Duval play those last few holes on Sunday as I did watching him finish his 59 — that he was going to do it.  Not that he was going to find a way to do it, just that he *was* going to do it.  (Duval might actually be a better image for Nike right now because he can just do it, but he’ll more likely get a sunglasses contract. As Loudon was pointing out, look at how the other guys blew it in the last 3-4 holes, while Duval just walked right past them.  Casual yet resolute. It really does show how taxing (April 15 is nigh) tournament golf is, and what incredible achievements are unfolding right before our eyes.  Enjoy! — Paul T. Wilson Prof of Reading

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Duval’s run is beyond belief considering the peer group he faces week after week. Tiger may well be the one we remember in years to come, time will tell. Hope it’s for his golf and not for his inability to live up to the goals Nike and others have set for him while he is still of an age where Nike’s future CEO’s are still working on their master’s degrees.

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The whole debate about who is better, Tiger vs. Duval, is very sorely misplaced.  You’re going to have to let history tell its own tale over time.(CLIP) — Paul T. Wilson Prof of Reading

Very well said, Paul. Let’s enjoy the game, people. What we have to understand is that during a run like Duval’s, he is simply exercising greater control over his game than others who are on the same level talent wise. Think about the fact that three or four others played as well or better over about 68 /69 holes but he was able to maintain that level for the remaining couple of holes… that’s what he is currently doing better than anyone else. Regardless of who makes the shots, when they are great ones, they are a joy to behold to this old golfer. — "How Can You Not Like A Game Where It’s Okay To  Get Teed Off, Tote A Six-Iron, Shoot Birdies,  and If You’re Under Par It’s A Great Day!" (from "Frank & Ernest" by Bob Thaves — used with permission)

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Were there boulders at the 97 Masters?  Nope.  I agree with most of what is said, but there is no denying his (Tiger) talent. — Thanks, James Prescott Dallas Golf Co. www.dallasgolf.com

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you haven’t figured out by now that Tiger isn’t all that great!  He only does well because he’s got yobbo fans that move immovable objects(namely boulders) in his road away so he can have a nice easy shot! Besides he can’t even play a good links course.  He’s too used to those soft American greens and courses. Is it me, or is Duval winning like Tiger was supposed to? Ya’ gotta love this guy!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The whole debate about who is better, Tiger vs. Duval, is very sorely misplaced.  You’re going to have to let history tell its own tale over time. Tiger, unfortunately, had one of the great *moments* in golf both in the way, and at the age, that he won The Masters.  Even my pre-school daughter was excited about it that whole weekend.  And if anyone wasn’t excited watching those final few holes, I dunno how they can be a real golf fan. But then I love watching any golfer play well, Duval, Tiger, O’Meara, Daly, Jimmy Demaret, Sam Snead, Ben Hogan, Jack Nicklaus, Arnie, Gary, Tom Watson, Greg Norman, etc. etc. and I’ve been watching since 1956. The problem for Tiger is this:  How can he live up to that great moment again — with all of its age and racial and historical implications?  The truth is, he can’t.  Unless he gets into some very tight finishes in more than a few of the majors and comes out on top dramatically (think Daly in the British Open) several times, he’s already set a standard that he will be hard pressed to live up to.  I think he’s bearing that burden of history reasonably well. Duval is playing tremendous golf the last couple of years, just recently had a 59, and has finally broken through to # 1.  If the 59 is Duval’s major achievement to date, how does that compare in its importance for his career to what the win at The Masters meant for Tiger.  The 59 doesn’t even come close.  Nobody expects Duval to go out and shoot another 59 every day; though they’d like to see him do it, nobody criticizes him when he doesn’t. But people, including some writing here, are expecting Tiger to go out and win other tournaments just the way he won The Masters, and when he doesn’t, they criticize him:  "Oh, he’s not as good as they said he was, and we knew it all along."  (Tiger did, btw, have a personal low on tour of 62 this year and he is younger than Duval.)

I agree with some of what you say, but remember most people that are disappointed with Tiger’s current performance are those that listen to the marketing hype and don’t know golf very well.  I’ve seen people come to the driving range thinking that they could just step up and play pro golf.  These people are litterally astonished that they can’t hit the ball! Blame the marketing machine.  That is the reason there is any Tiger "backlash".  Most (like myself) don’t like the hype.  Then again, I’m not the target audience.  If you think about it, few of us REALLY are despite the fact that we are golfers. Scott

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Well stated, Dr. Wilson! Bob Hattery – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The whole debate about who is better, Tiger vs. Duval, is very sorely misplaced.  You’re going to have to let history tell its own tale over time. Tiger, unfortunately, had one of the great *moments* in golf both in the way, and at the age, that he won The Masters.  Even my pre-school daughter was excited about it that whole weekend.  And if anyone wasn’t excited watching those final few holes, I dunno how they can be a real golf fan. But then I love watching any golfer play well, Duval, Tiger, O’Meara, Daly, Jimmy Demaret, Sam Snead, Ben Hogan, Jack Nicklaus, Arnie, Gary, Tom Watson, Greg Norman, etc. etc. and I’ve been watching since 1956. The problem for Tiger is this:  How can he live up to that great moment again — with all of its age and racial and historical implications?  The truth is, he can’t.  Unless he gets into some very tight finishes in more than a few of the majors and comes out on top dramatically (think Daly in the British Open) several times, he’s already set a standard that he will be hard pressed to live up to.  I think he’s bearing that burden of history reasonably well. Duval is playing tremendous golf the last couple of years, just recently had a 59, and has finally broken through to # 1.  If the 59 is Duval’s major achievement to date, how does that compare in its importance for his career to what the win at The Masters meant for Tiger.  The 59 doesn’t even come close.  Nobody expects Duval to go out and shoot another 59 every day; though they’d like to see him do it, nobody criticizes him when he doesn’t. But people, including some writing here, are expecting Tiger to go out and win other tournaments just the way he won The Masters, and when he doesn’t, they criticize him:  "Oh, he’s not as good as they said he was, and we knew it all along."  (Tiger did, btw, have a personal low on tour of 62 this year and he is younger than Duval.) This kind of criticism of Tiger is hypocrisy at best.  If I were in any way a cynic (who?  me?), I might suspect that some kind of bias were at play here and not just the old childish "My favorite player is better than your favorite player" crap.  And btw, I don’t have a favorite player (well, other than ChiChi and Lee Trevino); I just like to watch good golf. According to the ranking system (complain about it if you like; then go to deja news and look up Randy’s excellent discussions about how it works) Tiger has been the # 1 golfer for almost a couple of years solid, and he’s done it without winning tournaments by huge margins; he’s done it by getting more consistent.  He may need to shorten his swing.  He may need to work more on the long irons.  He may need to work on accuracy under pressure.  He may need better course management.  But whatever those areas are, he’s been doing a pretty damned good job without fixing them all, better than all but one other person in the game. After all, look at how long it’s taken Duval to catch him.  And think about how unlikely it would have been for anyone to catch Tiger if Duval were not having such an incredible run!  How could anyone possibly take it as anything but a tribute to Tiger that it would take such exceptional play over such a long period of time for another player to catch him. Sit back.  Relax.  Have another beer.  Enjoy the game without having to attack other people, and don’t bet against either Tiger or Duval for The Masters.  I’ll get a kick out of it whoever wins. — Paul T. Wilson Prof of Reading

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Sit back.  Relax.  Have another beer.  Enjoy the game without having to attack other people, and don’t bet against either Tiger or Duval for The Masters.  I’ll get a kick out of it whoever wins.

Amen! It’s great to have two such superb golfers to vie for our affections. I’m old enough to have lived through Nelson-Hogan/Snead, Hogan-Snead, Palmer-Boros, Palmer-Player, Palmer-Player-Nicklaus, Nicklaus-Palmer, Nicklaus-Pate, Nicklaus-Watson, etc., etc. . . . Every last one of them was a true champion.  And even those who challenged were great.  I loved them all, and still do. The older I get, the more I appreciate greatness. The more I applaud courage. The more I’m certain that the "greats," such as Duval and Woods, will give me pleasure for many, many years to come. Thus, I pay their fees without complaint. . . . Love, Elkington, Mickelson, etc., are all fantastic players. . . . But, when the game is on this next decade or so, it’s gonna be between Duval and Woods. Who could ask for anything more? Who can say who’ll be remembered as the "greatest" twenty years from now? –Fred      "The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose."         Shakespeare, "The Merchant Of Venice,"                   Act 1, Scene 1

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If you haven’t figured out by now that Tiger isn’t all that great!  He only does well because he’s got yobbo fans that move immovable objects(namely boulders) in his road away so he can have a nice easy shot! Besides he can’t even play a good links course.  He’s too used to those soft American greens and courses. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it me, or is Duval winning like Tiger was supposed to? Ya’ gotta love this guy!

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A couple of comments about messages within this thread. To, the person who said Tiger isn’t all that great, come on.  He may not be winning as much as expected right now, talk to me in 20 years and let’s see how many tour victories he has.  (If he has the drive to play that long.) To the person who said something about Duval being "in the zone" or on a streak…that’s a serious understandment.  Streaks last weeks or months.  This has gone just a tad longer. Who can deny Duval right now??   Brian

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The whole debate about who is better, Tiger vs. Duval, is very sorely misplaced.  You’re going to have to let history tell its own tale over time. Tiger, unfortunately, had one of the great *moments* in golf both in the way, and at the age, that he won The Masters.  Even my pre-school daughter was excited about it that whole weekend.  And if anyone wasn’t excited watching those final few holes, I dunno how they can be a real golf fan. But then I love watching any golfer play well, Duval, Tiger, O’Meara, Daly, Jimmy Demaret, Sam Snead, Ben Hogan, Jack Nicklaus, Arnie, Gary, Tom Watson, Greg Norman, etc. etc. and I’ve been watching since 1956. The problem for Tiger is this:  How can he live up to that great moment again — with all of its age and racial and historical implications?  The truth is, he can’t.  Unless he gets into some very tight finishes in more than a few of the majors and comes out on top dramatically (think Daly in the British Open) several times, he’s already set a standard that he will be hard pressed to live up to.  I think he’s bearing that burden of history reasonably well. Duval is playing tremendous golf the last couple of years, just recently had a 59, and has finally broken through to # 1.  If the 59 is Duval’s major achievement to date, how does that compare in its importance for his career to what the win at The Masters meant for Tiger.  The 59 doesn’t even come close.  Nobody expects Duval to go out and shoot another 59 every day; though they’d like to see him do it, nobody criticizes him when he doesn’t. But people, including some writing here, are expecting Tiger to go out and win other tournaments just the way he won The Masters, and when he doesn’t, they criticize him:  "Oh, he’s not as good as they said he was, and we knew it all along."  (Tiger did, btw, have a personal low on tour of 62 this year and he is younger than Duval.) This kind of criticism of Tiger is hypocrisy at best.  If I were in any way a cynic (who?  me?), I might suspect that some kind of bias were at play here and not just the old childish "My favorite player is better than your favorite player" crap.  And btw, I don’t have a favorite player (well, other than ChiChi and Lee Trevino); I just like to watch good golf. According to the ranking system (complain about it if you like; then go to deja news and look up Randy’s excellent discussions about how it works) Tiger has been the # 1 golfer for almost a couple of years solid, and he’s done it without winning tournaments by huge margins; he’s done it by getting more consistent.  He may need to shorten his swing.  He may need to work more on the long irons.  He may need to work on accuracy under pressure.  He may need better course management.  But whatever those areas are, he’s been doing a pretty damned good job without fixing them all, better than all but one other person in the game.   After all, look at how long it’s taken Duval to catch him.  And think about how unlikely it would have been for anyone to catch Tiger if Duval were not having such an incredible run!  How could anyone possibly take it as anything but a tribute to Tiger that it would take such exceptional play over such a long period of time for another player to catch him. Sit back.  Relax.  Have another beer.  Enjoy the game without having to attack other people, and don’t bet against either Tiger or Duval for The Masters.  I’ll get a kick out of it whoever wins. — Paul T. Wilson Prof of Reading

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Is it me, or is Duval winning like Tiger was supposed to? Ya’ gotta love this guy!

It’s not you–Duval is truly "da man."  What is most impressive to me is the professional manner in which he always conducts himself, win or lose–Tiger could stand some golf and professionalism lessons from David!!!

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My original post was NOT in anyway a bashing of Tiger. He still is a fine golfer. (I use the term "great" only to speak of Jack) It’s just that Duval is WINNING like 1/3 of the tournaments he’s entered, and that is kind of what I, and others I’m sure, had expected of Tiger. Not that he won’t be that consistent of a player, he just not there yet. Not that I expect Duval to continue this pace, that’s kind of unfair.

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Duval is truly a professional.  He deserves the number one ranking.  Tiger can learn some things from the way Duval conducts himself.  His demeanor is truly real.  He’s not a show boat and that is what the fans want to see now and for ever.  There is nothing like a humble winner, everybody likes one. Come on and admit it.  Hes great. joetee – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is it me, or is Duval winning like Tiger was supposed to? Ya’ gotta love this guy! It’s not you–Duval is truly "da man."  What is most impressive to me is the professional manner in which he always conducts himself, win or lose–Tiger could stand some golf and professionalism lessons from David!!!

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While tiger may not be the ideal golf role model, this is completely unfair. He, while you may not like him, has helped the game so much by bringing the game to an entirely new audiance.  It’s personalities like wood’s that will continue to grow the game.  Duval’s on an amazing stretch right now, but I seem to remember Nick Price being on a similar role in the early 90’s, or faldo before him.  Moral to the story, when one of these guys gets into the zone, they are very hard to beat.

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Is it me, or is Duval winning like Tiger was supposed to? Ya’ gotta love this guy!

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WOW    only in tige i mean eldricks dreams # 1 in the world and in 5 other catagories   4 wins in 99  ( so far )  3  wins in 98  3 wins in  97 did u c when he missed that green to the right , ok thats no problem ( no hissy fits ah-la eldrick )  he proceeds to just chip it in .  TYVM !!!       maybe eldrick should get a new instructor ( he better do something and quick ) `cause after this week he could really start sliding down the rankings. NOW THAT WOULD BE A SHAME !!! haizen

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