Question:
One comment about the response at the bottom : it is IMPERATIVE that the FIRST motion from the top is DOWN ONLY in the hands with NO shoulder turn until AFTER that has begun. I’m sorry but I have to strongly disagree. If you initiate the downswing with the hips.
I have to agree with you 1000%,Tony. GH is the epitome of contradiction. He just got finished trashing the shit of Mike Dalecki’s swing saying he was all arms and no body now he’s telling people the first motion is down with the hands and no shoulders. He just advocated what he trashed. This guy is totally unbelievable. David Laville, G.S.E.M. The Golfing Machine Authorized Instructor Contributor of spam free golf advice
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – One comment about the response at the bottom : it is IMPERATIVE that the FIRST motion from the top is DOWN ONLY in the hands with NO shoulder turn until AFTER that has begun. So the sequence is: turn to right; arms float to top; arms still going up while weight repositions onto left hip; after weight gets onto left foot arms/hands/butt of club move DOWN while shoulders and hips REMAIN facing to the right; THEN hips move left pulling torso pulling shoulders pulling arms pulling shaft pulling clubhead into an involuntary and powerful centrifugal release through the ballplace. HTH. George Hibbard www.perfectimpact.com I’m sorry but I have to strongly disagree. If you initiate the downswing with the hips. AKA in reverse order of the back swing; hands, arms, shoulder, hips. The arms will drop. I do agree that if people, and I notice a lot do, start the downswing with the shoulders they are asking for all kinds of trouble. But, to me, it’s almost as bad to start the downswing with the hands. Primarily, because when the hands move people start moving the shoulders. And I’ve noticed a lot of people that start with the hands, completely forget about any kind of foot work. And exercise that I use, is to push back to the left with the right foot, just before the hands reach the top of the backswing. It actually starts my hips turning and my hands drop into the slot and bang. I hit the back of the ball pretty damn solid. I’ve done this exercise, because it was the only way I could initiate the down swing with the hips. If I think hips, I get screwed up. If I push with the right foot the hips are the first to actually move. YMMV <snip Thanks, Tony
TOny – many golfers let gravity get them back onto the left foot. Some quicker tempos require the golfer to push over there with the right. An inspection of good swings and of most instruction is that the arms and club MUST start DOWN initially. If the shoulders start to turn too soon it causes the overthetop stuff. It is so infinitessimal the time between steps that its subtletly escapes detection. But I believe you’ll find this theme fairly well established in articulate instruction. George
Response:
When you initiate the swing with the hips, the shoulders do lag. This is what teachers like Redman and Boomer like. It keeps the upper body passive, reacting to the lower body. As I said before, Hogan and Snead both turned the hips fully and had both a lot of lag and power. This is where you keep misunderstanding swings like Hogan’s! Hogan did not "turn" his hips actively on the backswing. He specifically tried to resist the lower body turning with the upper body. Yes, his hips turned, but he did not try to turn them. He realized that by turning his shoulders fully, and allowing the hips to go, but also making his hips turn less, his upper body was pulling against a lagging lower body.
Jeff, Hogan felt that the hips should turn 45 deg. He wanted the hip turn retarded, this is why he felt the left foot should be flared out on the right foot square. He felt that the hip turn should be half of the shoulder turn, and if you look at the link I provided earlier, his hips to appear to turn half as much as his shoulders. BTW isn’t it amazing the comments you get about Hogan’s swing from people who have only seen still photos of it? Most people are expecting some kind a Freddie Couples or Larry Mize tempo and they are shocked when they see Hogan go whoosh woosh. Done correctly, the return of the hips to the left while the club is still swinging up creates a moment of opposition. The muscles are pulled taunt and you get a lot of lag which translates into power. The muscles ought to be taut all the way on the backswing too. You *can* wait until the downswing to tighten the hips against the upper body, but why? There’s no good reason other than medical. Hogan did *not* do what you suggest.
I said both Hogan and Snead turned their hips fully. I didn’t say that Hogan was a "turn in the barrel" swinger. Hogan likes a lateral move combined with the hips unwinding to initiate the downswing. Hogan was probably a bad example to use buy I didn’t have a link to a .mpg with Snead who is much less lateral. When Snead wanted a little more smack on a drive he turned the hips more fully and more quickly. That’s where he got his power from and he was one of the most flexible golfers ever. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You can get a lot of power by swinging in the so called "modern" fashion, with a big shoulder turn and a retarded hip turn. However, like I said it is hard on the back. I also find I will come over the top more when I try to swing in that fashion, hitting a pull hook, than I do the other way. Hogan did other very specific and deliberate things in his swing to avoid hitting a hook. But make no mistake – he does not swing like you say. Let me quote from Leadbetter’s analysis: "Hogan had a theory about the hips. The idea is to create resistance in the hips as the shoulders wind up, which maximizes player’s ‘coil’. Any early turning of the hips on the backswing would destroy this coil. *During the backswing*, the goal is to create a stretching feeling in the muscles between the hips and the shoulders." [emphasis mine] "He was able to create enormous torque by turning his shoulders fully while *resisting* with his hips…" [emphasis mine] So Hogan basically did the opposite of what you suggest. In fact, Leadbetter points out that most people can’t go to that extreme. He suggests that rather than resisting so much with the hips, that you simply allow the hips (key word – allow) to turn on the backswing. You can make an active move to turn the hips on the backswing, a passive move that allows the hips to turn, or an active move to resist turning. Hogan was rather active in resisting. Leadbetter suggests for most people to make a passive move instead, where the shoulders pull the hips back without resisting so much. But by no means is he suggesting an active move to turn the hips.
Right, this is Leadbetter’s theory. That’s fine. So is McClean’s. As I have said time and again, there is more than one way to swing a club and everyone has to find the best way for himself/herself. I have never made the statement that this way is the only way or one "system" to swing a golf club, unlike some people (GH). I can think of 3 or 4 different "styles" that I rotate through. I’ll even use different styles for different clubs during the same round. However, this thread started with a guy wanting to know how he can make a longer backswing. Suggesting trying to make a 90 degree shoulder turn while resisting with the hips for a guy who is obviously not flexible is asking for trouble unless he wants to spend a lot of time on flexibility exercises or with the cracker backer. Turning the hips and shoulders level helps ME make a longer swing, and I am pretty stiff. I do at times swing primarily with the arms and shoulders while resisting with the hips. However a sore back and hips are standard equipment for me on those swings. Personally, I would much rather swing that way, but I don’t as of yet have the inclination to spend the necessary time to get in the shape to swing that way pain free. However, that doesn’t mean that someone else might. Anyway Jeff, if you don’t already have them, I would suggest you pick up Ernest Jone’s Swing the Clubhead, Percy Boomer On Learning Golf, Tommy Armour How to Play You Best Golf All The Time, and John Redman The Essentials of the Golf Swing. All great books that teach a active lower body/passive upper body swing. The Boomer and Jone’s books are a little tougher reads since they are older books with a lot of English phrases not used much anymore but lots of good info. Steve "Never leave your opponent with the sole responsibility of thinking about what might go wrong with his shot." "Ball…..Ball Go….Ball Go Far…..Ball Go Far Wrong F*&king Way As Usual." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – BTW, turning out the right foot is a good idea to lengthen the swing however, this doesn’t automatically cause your shoulders to turn more, what it does is allow your hips to turn more. Agreed. Not a bad idea for less flexible players to increase their backswing. This *allows* their hips to turn farther.
Response:
When you initiate the swing with the hips, the shoulders do lag. This is what teachers like Redman and Boomer like. It keeps the upper body passive, reacting to the lower body. As I said before, Hogan and Snead both turned the hips fully and had both a lot of lag and power.
This is where you keep misunderstanding swings like Hogan’s! Hogan did not "turn" his hips actively on the backswing. He specifically tried to resist the lower body turning with the upper body. Yes, his hips turned, but he did not try to turn them. He realized that by turning his shoulders fully, and allowing the hips to go, but also making his hips turn less, his upper body was pulling against a lagging lower body. Done correctly, the return of the hips to the left while the club is still swinging up creates a moment of opposition. The muscles are pulled taunt and you get a lot of lag which translates into power.
The muscles ought to be taut all the way on the backswing too. You *can* wait until the downswing to tighten the hips against the upper body, but why? There’s no good reason other than medical. Hogan did *not* do what you suggest. You can get a lot of power by swinging in the so called "modern" fashion, with a big shoulder turn and a retarded hip turn. However, like I said it is hard on the back. I also find I will come over the top more when I try to swing in that fashion, hitting a pull hook, than I do the other way.
Hogan did other very specific and deliberate things in his swing to avoid hitting a hook. But make no mistake – he does not swing like you say. Let me quote from Leadbetter’s analysis: "Hogan had a theory about the hips. The idea is to create resistance in the hips as the shoulders wind up, which maximizes player’s ‘coil’. Any early turning of the hips on the backswing would destroy this coil. *During the backswing*, the goal is to create a stretching feeling in the muscles between the hips and the shoulders." [emphasis mine] "He was able to create enormous torque by turning his shoulders fully while *resisting* with his hips…" [emphasis mine] So Hogan basically did the opposite of what you suggest. In fact, Leadbetter points out that most people can’t go to that extreme. He suggests that rather than resisting so much with the hips, that you simply allow the hips (key word – allow) to turn on the backswing. You can make an active move to turn the hips on the backswing, a passive move that allows the hips to turn, or an active move to resist turning. Hogan was rather active in resisting. Leadbetter suggests for most people to make a passive move instead, where the shoulders pull the hips back without resisting so much. But by no means is he suggesting an active move to turn the hips. BTW, turning out the right foot is a good idea to lengthen the swing however, this doesn’t automatically cause your shoulders to turn more, what it does is allow your hips to turn more.
Agreed. Not a bad idea for less flexible players to increase their backswing. This *allows* their hips to turn farther.
Response:
One comment about the response at the bottom : it is IMPERATIVE that the FIRST motion from the top is DOWN ONLY in the hands with NO shoulder turn until AFTER that has begun. So the sequence is: turn to right; arms float to top; arms still going up while weight repositions onto left hip; after weight gets onto left foot arms/hands/butt of club move DOWN while shoulders and hips REMAIN facing to the right; THEN hips move left pulling torso pulling shoulders pulling arms pulling shaft pulling clubhead into an involuntary and powerful centrifugal release through the ballplace. HTH. George Hibbard www.perfectimpact.com
I’m sorry but I have to strongly disagree. If you initiate the downswing with the hips. AKA in reverse order of the back swing; hands, arms, shoulder, hips. The arms will drop. I do agree that if people, and I notice a lot do, start the downswing with the shoulders they are asking for all kinds of trouble. But, to me, it’s almost as bad to start the downswing with the hands. Primarily, because when the hands move people start moving the shoulders. And I’ve noticed a lot of people that start with the hands, completely forget about any kind of foot work. And exercise that I use, is to push back to the left with the right foot, just before the hands reach the top of the backswing. It actually starts my hips turning and my hands drop into the slot and bang. I hit the back of the ball pretty damn solid. I’ve done this exercise, because it was the only way I could initiate the down swing with the hips. If I think hips, I get screwed up. If I push with the right foot the hips are the first to actually move. YMMV
<snip Thanks, Tony Harmon "A golfer with great dreams, can accomplish great things." — Bob Rotella "A day without hitting golf balls, is a day longer to getting better" — Ben Hogan "The average golfer’s problem is not so much a lack of ability as it is a lack of knowing what he should do." — Ben Hogan
Response:
I came into this conversation rather late, but he could easily lengthen his backswing by opening up his right foot (if he’s a right-hander). That would seem to be an easier solution than messing about with his swing mechanics. Turning the hips *before* the shoulders make little sense to me. I can turn my hips without turning my shoulders (to a point) so that turning my hips first, *will* turn my shoulders but the latter will lag the former, and will not enable me to get the club back properly.
Right. Further, turning the hips before the shoulders prevents a coil.
It prevents coil on the backswing. There might still be time to create coil on the downswing, but I wouldn’t teach anyone to swing that way. I think what they (he) was getting at in this thread was that for older players or any players with low flexibility, intentionally turning the hips will get you a better turn and supposedly more power. I agree it will get you more turn, but not more power. I think building coil of the upper body against the lower body can be a problem though with golfers with certain types of lower back problems.
Response:
One comment about the response at the bottom : it is IMPERATIVE that the FIRST motion from the top is DOWN ONLY in the hands with NO shoulder turn until AFTER that has begun. So the sequence is: turn to right; arms float to top; arms still going up while weight repositions onto left hip; after weight gets onto left foot arms/hands/butt of club move DOWN while shoulders and hips REMAIN facing to the right; THEN hips move left pulling torso pulling shoulders pulling arms pulling shaft pulling clubhead into an involuntary and powerful centrifugal release through the ballplace. HTH. George Hibbard www.perfectimpact.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is true. But like a lot of things, there is more than one way to skin a cat as far as the golf swing goes. The players that you mentioned tend to have a little more physical fitness than the average golfer. Making a swing with a full shoulder turn and a restricted hip turn is great for them, but the guy who started this thread wanted to know how he could make a bigger swing. Turning the hips fully helps to turn the shoulders more fully. You turn your hips, the shoulders go along. What John Redman, Percy Boomer, Tommy Armour, and other instructors want you to do is make a level, stationary hip turn, with little or no lateral movement. To clarify, you turn your hips fully, then immediately turn them back fully to the left, to the point where your belt buckle would face left of the target. Ideally you start your hips back to the left while your arms are still swinging the clubhead up. Like anything, it takes practice to master but you get a lot of easy power this way. Especially for us "front porch" guys. Personally, I "can" swing the way that Jim McClean is describing and I feel that a person in superior physical condition will hit the ball farther this way. However, this type of swing is very hard on my back. I could put the effort forth and get into better physical condition, but I hit the ball about as long the other way and anyways I like to eat. 
Steve "Never leave your opponent with the sole responsibility of thinking about what might go wrong with his shot." I came into this conversation rather late, but he could easily lengthen his backswing by opening up his right foot (if he’s a right-hander). That would seem to be an easier solution than messing about with his swing mechanics. Turning the hips *before* the shoulders make little sense to me. I can turn my hips without turning my shoulders (to a point) so that turning my hips first, *will* turn my shoulders but the latter will lag the former, and will not enable me to get the club back properly. Further, turning the hips before the shoulders prevents a coil. Turning the hips back to create the coil (as you said) as the arms are still going back, will tend to cause the player throw the club to the outside, i.e. the hips need to be *moved* left as the arms are still going back, not *turned*. This *move* further enhances the coil, and enables the player to swing from the inside. One on this inside path, you can *turn* the hips as fast as you wish and is a major source of power. I have been practising this *move* recently and today was the day of reckoning. I hit my driver *much* further than usual, my irons too except that I was often off line. My putting stunk and I ended the round with a dismal 92 (normally mid-to-low-eighties for this time of year). I did have 5 pars in a row but the rest was garbage. When you initiate the swing with the hips, the shoulders do lag. This is what teachers like Redman and Boomer like. It keeps the upper body passive, reacting to the lower body. As I said before, Hogan and Snead both turned the hips fully and had both a lot of lag and power. http://personal.cha.bellsouth.net/cha/b/r/bretd/benhogan.mpg Done correctly, the return of the hips to the left while the club is still swinging up creates a moment of opposition. The muscles are pulled taunt and you get a lot of lag which translates into power. The only times you will throw the club outside the hands trying to use this method is if you try to get your hands into the shot. Or if you stop your hips halfway down. The key to swinging the club like this is to keep the upper body passive, reacting to what the lower body is doing. You can get a lot of power by swinging in the so called "modern" fashion, with a big shoulder turn and a retarded hip turn. However, like I said it is hard on the back. I also find I will come over the top more when I try to swing in that fashion, hitting a pull hook, than I do the other way. As I said before, there are lots of ways to swing a golf club. I really don’t think one method is any better than another. But you have to take the individual’s level of physical ability into account. A guy who is 5 8" and 215 lbs with a sedentary lifestyle cannot swing like Tiger. Hell George’s ideas could help the guy, miracles do happen I guess. BTW, turning out the right foot is a good idea to lengthen the swing however, this doesn’t automatically cause your shoulders to turn more, what it does is allow your hips to turn more. Steve "Never leave your opponent with the sole responsibility of thinking about what might go wrong with his shot." "Ball…..Ball Go….Ball Go Far…..Ball Go Far Wrong F*&king Way As Usual."
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This is true. But like a lot of things, there is more than one way to skin a cat as far as the golf swing goes. The players that you mentioned tend to have a little more physical fitness than the average golfer. Making a swing with a full shoulder turn and a restricted hip turn is great for them, but the guy who started this thread wanted to know how he could make a bigger swing. Turning the hips fully helps to turn the shoulders more fully. You turn your hips, the shoulders go along. What John Redman, Percy Boomer, Tommy Armour, and other instructors want you to do is make a level, stationary hip turn, with little or no lateral movement. To clarify, you turn your hips fully, then immediately turn them back fully to the left, to the point where your belt buckle would face left of the target. Ideally you start your hips back to the left while your arms are still swinging the clubhead up. Like anything, it takes practice to master but you get a lot of easy power this way. Especially for us "front porch" guys. Personally, I "can" swing the way that Jim McClean is describing and I feel that a person in superior physical condition will hit the ball farther this way. However, this type of swing is very hard on my back. I could put the effort forth and get into better physical condition, but I hit the ball about as long the other way and anyways I like to eat. Steve "Never leave your opponent with the sole responsibility of thinking about what might go wrong with his shot." I came into this conversation rather late, but he could easily lengthen his backswing by opening up his right foot (if he’s a right-hander). That would seem to be an easier solution than messing about with his swing mechanics. Turning the hips *before* the shoulders make little sense to me. I can turn my hips without turning my shoulders (to a point) so that turning my hips first, *will* turn my shoulders but the latter will lag the former, and will not enable me to get the club back properly. Further, turning the hips before the shoulders prevents a coil. Turning the hips back to create the coil (as you said) as the arms are still going back, will tend to cause the player throw the club to the outside, i.e. the hips need to be *moved* left as the arms are still going back, not *turned*. This *move* further enhances the coil, and enables the player to swing from the inside. One on this inside path, you can *turn* the hips as fast as you wish and is a major source of power. I have been practising this *move* recently and today was the day of reckoning. I hit my driver *much* further than usual, my irons too except that I was often off line. My putting stunk and I ended the round with a dismal 92 (normally mid-to-low-eighties for this time of year). I did have 5 pars in a row but the rest was garbage.
When you initiate the swing with the hips, the shoulders do lag. This is what teachers like Redman and Boomer like. It keeps the upper body passive, reacting to the lower body. As I said before, Hogan and Snead both turned the hips fully and had both a lot of lag and power. http://personal.cha.bellsouth.net/cha/b/r/bretd/benhogan.mpg Done correctly, the return of the hips to the left while the club is still swinging up creates a moment of opposition. The muscles are pulled taunt and you get a lot of lag which translates into power. The only times you will throw the club outside the hands trying to use this method is if you try to get your hands into the shot. Or if you stop your hips halfway down. The key to swinging the club like this is to keep the upper body passive, reacting to what the lower body is doing. You can get a lot of power by swinging in the so called "modern" fashion, with a big shoulder turn and a retarded hip turn. However, like I said it is hard on the back. I also find I will come over the top more when I try to swing in that fashion, hitting a pull hook, than I do the other way. As I said before, there are lots of ways to swing a golf club. I really don’t think one method is any better than another. But you have to take the individual’s level of physical ability into account. A guy who is 5 8" and 215 lbs with a sedentary lifestyle cannot swing like Tiger. Hell George’s ideas could help the guy, miracles do happen I guess. BTW, turning out the right foot is a good idea to lengthen the swing however, this doesn’t automatically cause your shoulders to turn more, what it does is allow your hips to turn more. Steve "Never leave your opponent with the sole responsibility of thinking about what might go wrong with his shot." "Ball…..Ball Go….Ball Go Far…..Ball Go Far Wrong F*&king Way As Usual."
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s the antithesis of a power swing. In fact, what you describe is what Dave Pelz recommends for hitting "finesse" wedges. He says to take the coil and torque out of the swing by turning both the hips and shoulders, together. In the power swing, you want to build up some coil. That’s a major power source. He should *allow* the hips to be turned by the shoulders pulling them. I wouldn’t go as far as to say "should"–that’s just one theory on how to swing. Pick up John Redman’s book sometime. He says there’s no need to build upper body tension, and his star pupil Azinger seems to do okay with a big hip turn. OK, I wasn’t aware of John Redman. I would say that’s contrary to popular teaching, which is not to say it’s not good for some people. Didn’t hurt Bobby Jones either. Well, *that* was a different time, and different equipment Sam Snead and Ben Hogan both turned their hips at least 45 degrees. Coil and resistance come from returning the hips to the left while the arms are still swinging up. Steve "Never leave your opponent with the sole responsibility of thinking about what might go wrong with his shot." I understand what you are saying and I agree, but I think that "returning the hips to the left" is ambiguous, in that a reader might think that you mean returning the hips to the position they were at address, which we both know, is not true. Last night on TGC McClean said that the pro’s laterally moved their hips up to 7" and showed examples of Love, Daly, Woods and Couples. Alan "We just write the software, and wait for the hardware to catch up." (Bill Gates) This is true. But like a lot of things, there is more than one way to skin a cat as far as the golf swing goes. The players that you mentioned tend to have a little more physical fitness than the average golfer. Making a swing with a full shoulder turn and a restricted hip turn is great for them, but the guy who started this thread wanted to know how he could make a bigger swing. Turning the hips fully helps to turn the shoulders more fully. You turn your hips, the shoulders go along. What John Redman, Percy Boomer, Tommy Armour, and other instructors want you to do is make a level, stationary hip turn, with little or no lateral movement. To clarify, you turn your hips fully, then immediately turn them back fully to the left, to the point where your belt buckle would face left of the target. Ideally you start your hips back to the left while your arms are still swinging the clubhead up. Like anything, it takes practice to master but you get a lot of easy power this way. Especially for us "front porch" guys. Personally, I "can" swing the way that Jim McClean is describing and I feel that a person in superior physical condition will hit the ball farther this way. However, this type of swing is very hard on my back. I could put the effort forth and get into better physical condition, but I hit the ball about as long the other way and anyways I like to eat. Steve "Never leave your opponent with the sole responsibility of thinking about what might go wrong with his shot."
I came into this conversation rather late, but he could easily lengthen his backswing by opening up his right foot (if he’s a right-hander). That would seem to be an easier solution than messing about with his swing mechanics. Turning the hips *before* the shoulders make little sense to me. I can turn my hips without turning my shoulders (to a point) so that turning my hips first, *will* turn my shoulders but the latter will lag the former, and will not enable me to get the club back properly. Further, turning the hips before the shoulders prevents a coil. Turning the hips back to create the coil (as you said) as the arms are still going back, will tend to cause the player throw the club to the outside, i.e. the hips need to be *moved* left as the arms are still going back, not *turned*. This *move* further enhances the coil, and enables the player to swing from the inside. One on this inside path, you can *turn* the hips as fast as you wish and is a major source of power. I have been practising this *move* recently and today was the day of reckoning. I hit my driver *much* further than usual, my irons too except that I was often off line. My putting stunk and I ended the round with a dismal 92 (normally mid-to-low-eighties for this time of year). I did have 5 pars in a row but the rest was garbage.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s the antithesis of a power swing. In fact, what you describe is what Dave Pelz recommends for hitting "finesse" wedges. He says to take the coil and torque out of the swing by turning both the hips and shoulders, together. In the power swing, you want to build up some coil. That’s a major power source. He should *allow* the hips to be turned by the shoulders pulling them. I wouldn’t go as far as to say "should"–that’s just one theory on how to swing. Pick up John Redman’s book sometime. He says there’s no need to build upper body tension, and his star pupil Azinger seems to do okay with a big hip turn. OK, I wasn’t aware of John Redman. I would say that’s contrary to popular teaching, which is not to say it’s not good for some people. Didn’t hurt Bobby Jones either. Well, *that* was a different time, and different equipment Sam Snead and Ben Hogan both turned their hips at least 45 degrees. Coil and resistance come from returning the hips to the left while the arms are still swinging up. Steve "Never leave your opponent with the sole responsibility of thinking about what might go wrong with his shot." I understand what you are saying and I agree, but I think that "returning the hips to the left" is ambiguous, in that a reader might think that you mean returning the hips to the position they were at address, which we both know, is not true. Last night on TGC McClean said that the pro’s laterally moved their hips up to 7" and showed examples of Love, Daly, Woods and Couples. Alan "We just write the software, and wait for the hardware to catch up." (Bill Gates)
This is true. But like a lot of things, there is more than one way to skin a cat as far as the golf swing goes. The players that you mentioned tend to have a little more physical fitness than the average golfer. Making a swing with a full shoulder turn and a restricted hip turn is great for them, but the guy who started this thread wanted to know how he could make a bigger swing. Turning the hips fully helps to turn the shoulders more fully. You turn your hips, the shoulders go along. What John Redman, Percy Boomer, Tommy Armour, and other instructors want you to do is make a level, stationary hip turn, with little or no lateral movement. To clarify, you turn your hips fully, then immediately turn them back fully to the left, to the point where your belt buckle would face left of the target. Ideally you start your hips back to the left while your arms are still swinging the clubhead up. Like anything, it takes practice to master but you get a lot of easy power this way. Especially for us "front porch" guys. Personally, I "can" swing the way that Jim McClean is describing and I feel that a person in superior physical condition will hit the ball farther this way. However, this type of swing is very hard on my back. I could put the effort forth and get into better physical condition, but I hit the ball about as long the other way and anyways I like to eat. Steve "Never leave your opponent with the sole responsibility of thinking about what might go wrong with his shot."
Response:
Sam Snead and Ben Hogan both turned their hips at least 45 degrees. Coil and resistance come from returning the hips to the left while the arms are still swinging up.
They ALLOWED their hips to be turned 45 degrees. Crucial difference.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s the antithesis of a power swing. In fact, what you describe is what Dave Pelz recommends for hitting "finesse" wedges. He says to take the coil and torque out of the swing by turning both the hips and shoulders, together. In the power swing, you want to build up some coil. That’s a major power source. He should *allow* the hips to be turned by the shoulders pulling them. I wouldn’t go as far as to say "should"–that’s just one theory on how to swing. Pick up John Redman’s book sometime. He says there’s no need to build upper body tension, and his star pupil Azinger seems to do okay with a big hip turn. OK, I wasn’t aware of John Redman. I would say that’s contrary to popular teaching, which is not to say it’s not good for some people. Didn’t hurt Bobby Jones either. Well, *that* was a different time, and different equipment Sam Snead and Ben Hogan both turned their hips at least 45 degrees. Coil and resistance come from returning the hips to the left while the arms are still swinging up. Steve "Never leave your opponent with the sole responsibility of thinking about what might go wrong with his shot."
I understand what you are saying and I agree, but I think that "returning the hips to the left" is ambiguous, in that a reader might think that you mean returning the hips to the position they were at address, which we both know, is not true. Last night on TGC McClean said that the pro’s laterally moved their hips up to 7" and showed examples of Love, Daly, Woods and Couples. Alan "We just write the software, and wait for the hardware to catch up." (Bill Gates)
Response:
I wouldn’t go as far as to say "should"–that’s just one theory on how to swing. Pick up John Redman’s book sometime. He says there’s no need to build upper body tension, and his star pupil Azinger seems to do okay with a big hip turn. Didn’t hurt Bobby Jones either.
But there *is* upper body tension. The difference there is that it starts on the way down, as the hips start the coil late in the swing. Sure, you can do this. You can swing like Furyk, too. There are lots of successful golfers with swings off the beaten path. But if you don’t don’t build coil on the backswing, you’ve got to compensate by doing it on the downswing, and quickly. Sort of like you don’t have to take your club back on plane, as long as you reroute back on plane on the downswing. Some outstanding golfers have done this, too.
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s the antithesis of a power swing. In fact, what you describe is what Dave Pelz recommends for hitting "finesse" wedges. He says to take the coil and torque out of the swing by turning both the hips and shoulders, together. In the power swing, you want to build up some coil. That’s a major power source. He should *allow* the hips to be turned by the shoulders pulling them. I wouldn’t go as far as to say "should"–that’s just one theory on how to swing. Pick up John Redman’s book sometime. He says there’s no need to build upper body tension, and his star pupil Azinger seems to do okay with a big hip turn. OK, I wasn’t aware of John Redman. I would say that’s contrary to popular teaching, which is not to say it’s not good for some people. Didn’t hurt Bobby Jones either. Well, *that* was a different time, and different equipment
Sam Snead and Ben Hogan both turned their hips at least 45 degrees. Coil and resistance come from returning the hips to the left while the arms are still swinging up. Steve "Never leave your opponent with the sole responsibility of thinking about what might go wrong with his shot."
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s the antithesis of a power swing. In fact, what you describe is what Dave Pelz recommends for hitting "finesse" wedges. He says to take the coil and torque out of the swing by turning both the hips and shoulders, together. In the power swing, you want to build up some coil. That’s a major power source. He should *allow* the hips to be turned by the shoulders pulling them. I wouldn’t go as far as to say "should"–that’s just one theory on how to swing. Pick up John Redman’s book sometime. He says there’s no need to build upper body tension, and his star pupil Azinger seems to do okay with a big hip turn. Didn’t hurt Bobby Jones either.
In fact the older and less flexible you get the more you should turn your hips to promote a bigger shoulder turn… me
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That’s the antithesis of a power swing. In fact, what you describe is what Dave Pelz recommends for hitting "finesse" wedges. He says to take the coil and torque out of the swing by turning both the hips and shoulders, together. In the power swing, you want to build up some coil. That’s a major power source. He should *allow* the hips to be turned by the shoulders pulling them. I wouldn’t go as far as to say "should"–that’s just one theory on how to swing. Pick up John Redman’s book sometime. He says there’s no need to build upper body tension, and his star pupil Azinger seems to do okay with a big hip turn. Didn’t hurt Bobby Jones either.
Exactly. Redman feels that the source of power comes from the hips. The only resistance you should feel is when you return your hips to the left while your shoulders are completing their turn and the arms are still swinging up. This increases wrist cock, helps with a delayed release and helps you not hit from the top. Steve "Never leave your opponent with the sole responsibility of thinking about what might go wrong with his shot." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That’s the antithesis of a power swing. In fact, what you describe is what Dave Pelz recommends for hitting "finesse" wedges. He says to take the coil and torque out of the swing by turning both the hips and shoulders, together. In the power swing, you want to build up some coil. That’s a major power source. He should *allow* the hips to be turned by the shoulders pulling them. I wouldn’t go as far as to say "should"–that’s just one theory on how to swing. Pick up John Redman’s book sometime. He says there’s no need to build upper body tension, and his star pupil Azinger seems to do okay with a big hip turn.
OK, I wasn’t aware of John Redman. I would say that’s contrary to popular teaching, which is not to say it’s not good for some people. Didn’t hurt Bobby Jones either.
Well, *that* was a different time, and different equipment
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I don’t agree. As Tommy Armour said, you can turn the shoulders independently of the hips, but if you turn the hips your shoulders go right along. If this guy is a stiff as he sounds, which I tend to be too, he needs to make a bigger turn and the easiest way to accomplish this is with a hip turn that is 40 to 45 degrees.
That’s the antithesis of a power swing. In fact, what you describe is what Dave Pelz recommends for hitting "finesse" wedges. He says to take the coil and torque out of the swing by turning both the hips and shoulders, together. In the power swing, you want to build up some coil. That’s a major power source. He should *allow* the hips to be turned by the shoulders pulling them.
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That’s the antithesis of a power swing. In fact, what you describe is what Dave Pelz recommends for hitting "finesse" wedges. He says to take the coil and torque out of the swing by turning both the hips and shoulders, together. In the power swing, you want to build up some coil. That’s a major power source. He should *allow* the hips to be turned by the shoulders pulling them.
I wouldn’t go as far as to say "should"–that’s just one theory on how to swing. Pick up John Redman’s book sometime. He says there’s no need to build upper body tension, and his star pupil Azinger seems to do okay with a big hip turn. Didn’t hurt Bobby Jones either. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi,TX http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/claryd.htm
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hey i need help in lengthening my backswing does anyone have any tips?
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stretch
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hey i need help in lengthening my backswing does anyone have any tips?
Increase your flexibility. Whatever you do, don’t simply take your hands back further. Go back as far as everything will stay in synch.
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In addition to increasing your flexibility, try to make a fuller hip turn which will increase your shoulder turn. Make sure you swing the club back and not simply lift your arms at the top to artificially make your swing longer. Steve "Never leave your opponent with the sole responsibility of thinking about what might go wrong with his shot." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey i need help in lengthening my backswing does anyone have any tips?
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In addition to increasing your flexibility, try to make a fuller hip turn which will increase your shoulder turn.
IMO it’s better to make a fuller shoulder turn, which will increase your hip turn. This increases coil. The other way decreases coil.
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I don’t agree. As Tommy Armour said, you can turn the shoulders independently of the hips, but if you turn the hips your shoulders go right along. If this guy is a stiff as he sounds, which I tend to be too, he needs to make a bigger turn and the easiest way to accomplish this is with a hip turn that is 40 to 45 degrees. Steve "Never leave your opponent with the sole responsibility of thinking about what might go wrong with his shot." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In addition to increasing your flexibility, try to make a fuller hip turn which will increase your shoulder turn. IMO it’s better to make a fuller shoulder turn, which will increase your hip turn. This increases coil. The other way decreases coil.
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Seem like John Daily has a pretty big hip turn.
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Seem like John Daily has a pretty big hip turn.
And John Daly mentions in HIS book that he turns everything as far as he can without worrying about X factor. He accomplishes ia good connected windup BY turning everything. I like John’s book. He is a very intelligent and sensitive golfer, IMO. GREAT talent and a head to match. It’s other things that are his demons. GH