Question:
When the pro’s play in a tournament, the course is "prepared" about a week in advance of play. The people that take care of the course are TOLD what they will do to the course and what they will NOT do to the course before and during the tournament. For example I believe they are not allowed to water the fairways for 3 days prior to the tournament. Then the fairways are cut to what most of us are used to for greens.
If I’m not mistaken, Steve, they actually went back out and re-cut the fairways in mid-tournament at one tourney earlier this year because the pros were complaining that grass (which looked awfully short to me) was too high to get the backspin they wanted on their shots. — Don Porter Newspaper Reporter & Webmaster Web Page: http://www.datacruz.com/~dporter
Response:
I’ve spent 10 yrs playing public courses in MA, trying my best to get the ball to back up like it does on TV, with minimal success. Played a round in Dallas last month at a real nice course, and the ball backed up on every green I managed to hit. The grass makes a whole lot of difference! As long as the divot is in front of the ball there will be plenty of backspin. Now whether or not average players can spin the ball back is a different question and has a lot to do with the greens and fairways. First off you must have a tight lie such as bent grass, burmuda, zoysia, and such in the fairway
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As long as the divot is in front of the ball there will be plenty of backspin. Now whether or not average players can spin the ball back is a different question and has a lot to do with the greens and fairways. First off you must have a tight lie such as bent grass, burmuda, zoysia, and such in the fairway normally. Courses with bluegrass fairways will make it difficult to actually make a ball back up unless it is really moist. The greens will make a large difference, the greens must be receptive, meaning that they are fairly soft, soft doesn’t mean slow you can have very fast greens that are fairly receptive. So a lot matters where you play and what kind of courses you play. The elevation of the greens will make a difference to.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We were talking about the back spin a ball has when hitting the green and backing up. Must be the club that imparts the spin on the ball to create the back spin. Is the divot taken during the swing important to the back spin? Are the fairways softer in a PGA course than the public courses. Why don’t the average player, just by the shear number of shots taken, get some kind of back spin? Thanks Ron
Response:
Well, I’ve "almost" given up on trying to spin the ball on approach shots. We tend to watch golf on TV and think we should be able to do the same things as the pros. Fact is, we don’t play on anywhere near the same course conditions as the pros or have the same equipment. Believe me when I say that if you see a pro playing a certain make of club, it is NOT the same club you can buy in the pro shop regardless of what name’s on it. When the pro’s play in a tournament, the course is "prepared" about a week in advance of play. The people that take care of the course are TOLD what they will do to the course and what they will NOT do to the course before and during the tournament. For example I believe they are not allowed to water the fairways for 3 days prior to the tournament. Then the fairways are cut to what most of us are used to for greens. Greens are treated almost the same way and are cut so short about all that’s left is the green color. That’s why those types of greens are so fast. They are dry and cut extremely short. What does that mean for spin. Well on a dry short fairway, you can get a good strike on the ball without getting any grass or dirt on the club face thereby imparting maximum spin. This or course makes the assumption that the ball is struck correctly in the first place. Although one would tend to think that a lush soft green would make a ball "bite" better, it’s just the opposite. When you walk up to a green and see a half inch deep ball mark, what that means is that when the ball hit the green and "sunk in that half inch", the green actually STOPPED the spin on the ball. On tournament greens, the ball barely leaves a mark, keeps it’s spin, and checks up. Generally speaking, none of up play under conditions that are conducive to spinning a ball. It’s not impossible, but very difficult. We certainly are at a very big disadvantage as far as course conditions. It’s hard to spin balls on our nice lush green courses. 8^) Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Backspin is imparted on the ball with every club on every shot. The speed of the clubhead and the amount of debris (sand,grass,water,ect..)between the clubhead and the ball are what determine the amount of backspin you will get on certain shots. With a clean lie in the fairway(soft or hard)it is much easier to hit a good shot with enough spin to stop the ball fairly quickly on the green. As far as taking a divot it really doesn’t matter if you do or not ….as long as you hit the ball before the ground you will get increased backspin. — When life gets you down… GO GOLFING! Brian —– We were talking about the back spin a ball has when hitting the green and backing up. Must be the club that imparts the spin on the ball to create the back spin. Is the divot taken during the swing important to the back spin? Are the fairways softer in a PGA course than the public courses. Why don’t the average player, just by the shear number of shots taken, get some kind of back spin? Thanks Ron
Response:
We were talking about the back spin a ball has when hitting the green and backing up. Must be the club that imparts the spin on the ball to create the back spin. Is the divot taken during the swing important to the back spin? Are the fairways softer in a PGA course than the public courses. Why don’t the average player, just by the shear number of shots taken, get some kind of back spin? Thanks Ron
Response:
For one the fairways that the pros play on are much shorter than what we play on. This helps them spin the ball more. I don’t think the fairways are softer, actually they are probably the same if not harder than what you are used to. I think the divot is a reflection of the spin impared on the ball. In other words if you take a rather large divot, when the ball is struck in the center of the clubface, the ball will have more spin than a shot where the ball is "picked" off the fairway. The ball will have more spin, not because of the divot, but because of the hitting down on the ball that causes the divot. The pros generally don’t pick the ball. Also, type of club makes a difference. A forged club will produce more spin because the ball stays on the clubface longer. The last thing that is different is the ball. There is a large difference in the action you will get on the green when you go from a two piece distance ball to a balata. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We were talking about the back spin a ball has when hitting the green and backing up. Must be the club that imparts the spin on the ball to create the back spin. Is the divot taken during the swing important to the back spin? Are the fairways softer in a PGA course than the public courses. Why don’t the average player, just by the shear number of shots taken, get some kind of back spin? Thanks Ron
Response:
Backspin is imparted on the ball with every club on every shot. The speed of the clubhead and the amount of debris (sand,grass,water,ect..)between the clubhead and the ball are what determine the amount of backspin you will get on certain shots. With a clean lie in the fairway(soft or hard)it is much easier to hit a good shot with enough spin to stop the ball fairly quickly on the green. As far as taking a divot it really doesn’t matter if you do or not ….as long as you hit the ball before the ground you will get increased backspin. — When life gets you down… GO GOLFING! Brian —–
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We were talking about the back spin a ball has when hitting the green and backing up. Must be the club that imparts the spin on the ball to create the back spin. Is the divot taken during the swing important to the back spin? Are the fairways softer in a PGA course than the public courses. Why don’t the average player, just by the shear number of shots taken, get some kind of back spin? Thanks Ron
Response:
The lower air density at high altitude imparts less resistance to the ball’s everything; flight, spin, etc. Therefore, a ball struck by the club will retain more of it’s initial RPM during flight, and carry that spin to the green. The only thing I can think of that might cause balls to check-up and spin back less at high altitude is HUMIDITY. What do YOU know about this?
True, the ball will generate less lift from its spin at high attitudes because of lower atmospheric pressure. Also true that the balls spin rate will be better retained because of less friction due to lower air density. Given the above, I would have to agree that the ball should have more spin at high altitude. However, as the physical evidence seems to suggest, this is not the case. My theory: All else being equal, ball spin is a function of the softness of the ball. At higher altitudes where the atmospheric pressure is less, the interior of a golf ball expands and presses harder against the cover of the ball. This causes the ball to be harder and so, therefor, spin less. If you want your usual spin when you are playing at a high altitude – Use a ball with a lower compression rating. I stand to be corrected on all of the above as it is largly guess work.. Nigel Cooper
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I am playing with new Wilson Staff RM midsize forged irons. I have now played these balls head to head for several weeks, and remain with the impression that the Precept is *slightly* softer than the HP2. Both excellent balls, however! Thanks for your interest. Jeff
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During the Sprint International in August, Ken Venturi said more than once that it was harder for the pro’s to put spin on the ball at high altitude (6000′ at Castle Pines). As far as I could tell from the TV coverage, he was right: balls spun back a lot less than you might see elsewhere. I’ve asked a number of people why this is so (Venturi never explained why), but despite the fact that eveyone I talked to agreed that Venturi is right, no one could explain WHY. Here’s my reasoning of why I think the ball should spin MORE at high altitude: Balls fly, hook, and slice because the dimples on a spinning ball "stack-up" air molecules on the windward side of the ball, creating a high pressure zone (lift). The opposite is true for the opposite side of the ball, where a low-pressure zone is created, strengthening the effect of lift. It’s just like an airplane wing. The denser the air, the more the molecules stack-up to create more lift, so golf balls hook and slice more at sea level than at high altitude. The lower air density at high altitude imparts less resistance to the ball’s everything; flight, spin, etc. Therefore, a ball struck by the club will retain more of it’s initial RPM during flight, and carry that spin to the green. The only thing I can think of that might cause balls to check-up and spin back less at high altitude is HUMIDITY. What do YOU know about this?
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Hi all, I’m seeking a little help. I know that different balls and different clubs will increase/decrease backspin, but how does one start it in the first place? Is it a difference in the swing? How/where I strike the ball? How do I get a ball, from a tee on a par 3 or from the grass, to hit the green, bounce, and spin back? I see the pro’s do it all the time, and of course, I’m no pro, but nobody ever talks about it like it’s some kind of trick. So, what’s the secret? Any help would be great. Thanks in advance. –Shawn Bannon
Response:
Every ball you hit will have back spin on it, thats what makes it fly. Most balls that hit the green and back up are struck with a pinching motion. The ball is pinched between the club face and the ground. The softer the ball the more it will spin. A 3 piece balata covered ball will generally generate the most spin, and if struck properly with the right club on the right green surface can hit, bounce and spin back. I’m no pro but take it from me, this has punished me more times than rewarded me. K I’m seeking a little help. I know that different balls and different clubs will increase/decrease backspin, but how does one
start it in the first place? Is it a difference in the swing? How/where strike the ball? How do I get a ball, from a tee on a par 3 or from the grass, to hit the green, bounce, and spin back? I see the pro’s do it all the time, and of course, I’m no pro, but nobody ever talks about itlike it’s some kind of trick. So, what’s the secret?
Response:
I’m seeking a little help. I know that different balls and different clubs will increase/decrease backspin, but how does one start it in the first place? Is it a difference in the swing? How/where I strike the ball?
A few suggestions here: - Balata ball. A high-spin ball DOES make a difference. Nothing else about your equipment will, at least not from tee or dry fairway. - Hit down on the ball. Take a divot, or at least clip grass, after your clubhead strikes the ball. If your swing is a "help it into the air" swing, you will NOT get backspin. - Full swing, with lots of clubhead speed. You won’t see even the pros spin the ball from just off the green. At least not very often. How do I get a ball, from a tee on a par 3 or from the grass, to hit the green, bounce, and spin back? I see the pro’s do it all the time, and of course, I’m no pro, but nobody ever talks about it like it’s some kind of trick. So, what’s the secret?
I guess I’d answer the question with a question: Why do you want to? I know the ego rush that comes from arriving at your ball and seeing the ball mark further away than the ball. But for rational golf, having the ball stop instantly is a better goal than spinning it back. The few situations where spinning back is superior (a tight pin behind trouble, and enough rough at green-edge so it won’t spin into the trouble), most golfers are better off going at the middle of the green anyway. Only the low handicappers should be going at such pins. A little anecdote. A buddy of mine found a balata ball in the woods, and put it in his pocket to save for a par-three later in the round. At the seventeenth, he teed it up and announced he was going to try to spin the ball back. He hit it square, dead on the pin the whole way. It landed about 8 feet short of the pin, still dead on line. The second bounce was only a foot or two from the pin, still on line for an ace. But, as happens when you have lots of spin, the second bounce was where the "backup" took effect, by the time the ball stopped rolling it was at the front edge of the green, in three-putt territory. No ace (which was a distinct possibility with "stop-spin" instead of "backup-spin"). No birdie (which was almost assured with "stop-spin"). Don’t remember whether he got par or bogey. Cheers! Dave
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I must admit I’ve been quite curious about this phenomenon as well. After a roughly ten year hiatus from golf (former NCAA golfer) I have returned to playing. Previously I have rarely backed a ball up on a green; usually my approaches have been high, floating types, coming nearly straight down and staying put. Well, I have decided to check out the new ball technology, and played two balls for the first time today at my near-deserted local executive course: the Precept EV Extra Spin and the Titleist HP2 Tour. Very interesting! I backed the ball up with both balls on EVERY green I hit, the Precept much more than the Titleist; I was actually 2 feet immediately behind (above) the hole on an approach from 140 yards with the Precept and the ball ended up 10 or so feet below the hole. I can appreciate now other’s comments about this being a mixed blessing. Other impressions: the Titleist feels slightly harder than the Precept; they are both roughly equally long; they both have a great feel when putting; and both covers are seemingly very durable (I thinned several shots with each and nary an impression was made). I was very impressed. Further experimentation (i.e., play) with them should allow me to settle on one. Jeff Henderson Rapid City, SD Jeff: An interesting observation about the hardness differences. I played the Precept Xtra Spin befire Titlest came out with their HP2 Tour. Everyone I know then switched to it because we all found it softer than the Precept. What kind of clubs are you using? Regards, Scott
For what it worth, I also found the Precept to be softer feeling than the HP2. I remember it well too, because the day I tried the HP2 was not a very good day, and I kept getting annoyed at the hard feel of the ball, because I really expected it to be softer than the Precept. Cheers Monte
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3. Their grooves are not worn, i.e. edges rounded, like the average amateur’s irons since we can only afford new irons every 5 years or so and they can get new clubs as soon as needed from their sponsors. The edges of the grooves of my new irons were slightly rounded after ten rounds of play and I’m too lazy to regroove them all the time.
Yet another reason to get irons with square grooves! The effect of the grooves is as much cross-sectional area as sharpness. (For more explanation of this statement, see my Club Design Notes at dunkin.princeton.edu) And V-grooves show their wear much earlier in their life in this regard. Consider: - Face wear of 10% of the groove depth reduces the cross-section of square grooves by 10%. - The same face wear reduces the cross-section area of V-grooves by 20%. I’ve seen pitching wedges with normal V-grooves, where the grooves were almost useless in their first year of play. Never seen anything like this with square grooves. Cheers! Dave
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Discussion reminds me to ask about one of the shots that bothers me most (NC foothills and mountains) where lie is above the green, say 2 to 10 feet, from a steep apron leading down the green. If you chip it or putt the ball even gently through the grass to the slope of the apron it will take off down the hill, across the green, and sometimes clear down a steep hill on the other side. Is it possible to chip and stop in this kind of situation? Any hints as to kind of stroke this takes? Any other ideas? Bill
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I must admit I’ve been quite curious about this phenomenon as well. After a roughly ten year hiatus from golf (former NCAA golfer) I have returned to playing. Previously I have rarely backed a ball up on a green; usually my approaches have been high, floating types, coming nearly straight down and staying put. Well, I have decided to check out the new ball technology, and played two balls for the first time today at my near-deserted local executive course: the Precept EV Extra Spin and the Titleist HP2 Tour. Very interesting! I backed the ball up with both balls on EVERY green I hit, the Precept much more than the Titleist; I was actually 2 feet immediately behind (above) the hole on an approach from 140 yards with the Precept and the ball ended up 10 or so feet below the hole. I can appreciate now other’s comments about this being a mixed blessing. Other impressions: the Titleist feels slightly harder than the Precept; they are both roughly equally long; they both have a great feel when putting; and both covers are seemingly very durable (I thinned several shots with each and nary an impression was made). I was very impressed. Further experimentation (i.e., play) with them should allow me to settle on one. Jeff Henderson Rapid City, SD
Jeff: An interesting observation about the hardness differences. I played the Precept Xtra Spin befire Titlest came out with their HP2 Tour. Everyone I know then switched to it because we all found it softer than the Precept. What kind of clubs are you using? Regards, Scott
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Amateur with Trevino at ProAm sees Trevino stop a 2 iron on green at over 200 yards. He asks Trevino if Lee could teach him how to stop his 2 iron like that. Lee asks how far he hits 2 iron and is told 175 yards, so Lee says " Why do you want it to stop?" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m seeking a little help. I know that different balls and different clubs will increase/decrease backspin, but how does one start it in the first place? Is it a difference in the swing? How/where I strike the ball? Some clipped I
Response:
A little more on backspin. 1. The green must be receptive to the spin meaning it must be soft enough for the ball to "bite" but not so soft that it kills the spin. Most public and all but the very best private courses on not going to have the greens conditioned as well as a course set up for a PGA tour event. 2. The pro’s hit their shots at a much lower trajectory and angle into the green than us mere mortals which gives the ball that skip needed to back it up. They have much stonger lofts on their irons and hit them so pure with their near perfect swings that they are able to put the trajectory needed to get the ball to back up. 3. Their grooves are not worn, i.e. edges rounded, like the average amateur’s irons since we can only afford new irons every 5 years or so and they can get new clubs as soon as needed from their sponsors. The edges of the grooves of my new irons were slightly rounded after ten rounds of play and I’m too lazy to regroove them all the time. 4. Having attended a number of PGA events including a US Open, the pro’s play on tee’s and fairways that are equivalent to 90% of the public and private course greens. The grass is finely cut with perfect lies in the fairways. This means there are never any blades of grass that get between the face of the club and the ball. Thus, they can control when and how much back spin to put on the ball every time they hit it.
Response:
I must admit I’ve been quite curious about this phenomenon as well. After a roughly ten year hiatus from golf (former NCAA golfer) I have returned to playing. Previously I have rarely backed a ball up on a green; usually my approaches have been high, floating types, coming nearly straight down and staying put. Well, I have decided to check out the new ball technology, and played two balls for the first time today at my near-deserted local executive course: the Precept EV Extra Spin and the Titleist HP2 Tour. Very interesting! I backed the ball up with both balls on EVERY green I hit, the Precept much more than the Titleist; I was actually 2 feet immediately behind (above) the hole on an approach from 140 yards with the Precept and the ball ended up 10 or so feet below the hole. I can appreciate now other’s comments about this being a mixed blessing. Other impressions: the Titleist feels slightly harder than the Precept; they are both roughly equally long; they both have a great feel when putting; and both covers are seemingly very durable (I thinned several shots with each and nary an impression was made). I was very impressed. Further experimentation (i.e., play) with them should allow me to settle on one. Jeff Henderson Rapid City, SD
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strike the ball? How do I get a ball, from a tee on a par 3 or from the grass, to hit the green, bounce, and spin back? I see the pro’s do it all the time, and of course, I’m no pro, but nobody ever talks about it like it’s some kind of trick. So, what’s the secret? Any help would be
There’s no trick to it. It’s a matter of <1 using a ball that will spin (ex. balata or a special "high spin" ball) <2 having enough skill to strike the ball cleanly, and <3 having enough club head speed to generate sufficient spin. But as one other individual mentioned, it can be as much a curse as an advantage. There have been numerous times that I’ve backed a ball off the green, or landed within 5 feet of the pin only to end up 15 feet away.