Question:
Well if you are going to pick holes from PGA West the 17th is easy compared to the 6th – I believe it’s the 6th, a par three.
I used to play this course often – albeit on my PC on an old version of PGA tour for Windows 
that 6th hole was tough, but it was an easy bail out if your were scared. the 17th was a nightmare. I would easily have hit into the lake 2 out of every 3 attempts. and i was shooting consistent scores of between 5-10 under per round (inc the water). Just quite glad that I never will play that hole for real, especially if the wind was blowing left to right. my nerves just would be able to take it. Fore Right!, Mark Fairway: [faer-wai] "An unfamiliar tract of mown grass running directly from tee to the green. Your ball can usually be found immediately to the left or right of it."
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17th Hole at PGA West Stadium. An Island hole appropriately named Alcatraz. About 190 from the back tees and it is a shot that you can’t bail out on. Toughest hole I ever played. Stood up on the tee where Lee Trevino hit that miraculous hole in one in the Skins Game a few years ago and hit 6 balls in the water before I was able to get onto the green. Very Intimidating hole. Fairways and Greens, Frank
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Well if you are going to pick holes from PGA West the 17th is easy compared to the 6th – I believe it’s the 6th, a par three. I played it from the tips, on the card it measures about 255 yds. all carry over water. I hit a pretty good driver and thought – no problem – until my ball splashed. Later that year they were playing the Skins Game at PGA West. I wanted to see how the pros would do on this hole. Well, they didn’t show the hole in the telecast. The reason… I found out later, 3 of the 4 pros (and remember this is the skins game) splashed it! The only person to make the green – John Daly. This made me feel pretty good – I knew I hit that driver! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 17th Hole at PGA West Stadium. An Island hole appropriately named Alcatraz. About 190 from the back tees and it is a shot that you can’t bail out on. Toughest hole I ever played. Stood up on the tee where Lee Trevino hit that miraculous hole in one in the Skins Game a few years ago and hit 6 balls in the water before I was able to get onto the green. Very Intimidating hole. Fairways and Greens, Frank
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Here in Rochester, NY we have some great course (Oak Hill, Locust Hill, Monroe CC, and CCR) but have our share of bad hole also… Midvale CC is the very FIRST Robert Trent Jones Course it is a very good set up. It has the typical layout of the first and tenth holes going away from the clubhouse and 9 and 18 coming back in. The only problem is that it seems they didn’t have alot of room and the 9th and 18 holes got squeezed for space. So they created a 110 yard (from white) par 3 on the ninth which is literally straight up hill to a green that is not visable. 18 is a similar set up but it is stretched to a respectable 175 (I believe) uphill. It is a clear example of a oops when building a course. IMHO, these holes ruin what I consider a very good course.
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Haven’t played it, but this #12 sounds like a well designed hole to me. A course that was designed to permit mortals a chance to grip-and-rip and birdie every hole would be pretty boring. IMHO there have to be some holes that scare a golfer a bit and where a par is the reward.
<clip Among them is #12 – a par 5 dogleg right. The tee shot requires a precise drive of about 180-230 yds. Too long and it goes through fairway into bunker which plays down most of left side, too short and second shot is blocked. Left is sand, right is deep woods. Going for the green in 2 is almost impossible for mortal men as there is a pond & gulley in front of green. Second must be middle iron layup to short-mid iron approach. Short of green rolls into pond, long goes into woods, left is trap, right is junk & trees. Hole, if played to a par is layup fairway wood, layup iron & approach with no room for error. Birdie from an up & down is not likely. Not a fun hole!
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My vote for the "worst designed hole ever" has got to be on the back nine at Brandywine CC near Akron, Ohio. I believe it is the 16th, They use this hole in their advertising. "Home of the famous "Z" hole". This monument to idiocy is a par 5 of a relatively short 440 yds. The problem is your tee shot must be made with a short iron (7,8) to a 90 degree dogleg right. Long, and your on the side of a hill in deep trees. Cutting the corner is not a good idea either as their is a severe upslope between you and the fairway, (the hole is built in a valley). Your second shot is a little better maybe a five iron to the 90 degree dogleg left. Leaving you with a pitch shot of 75-100 yds (If you play it perfect.) If you’re long on your second shot,you have a blind third from a 10- 15 ft drop off. (how many balls are we going to lose today?) SHEESH!! Keep it in the short stuff Jim
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The toughest holes aren’t always the worst. and Vice versa, so here we go! The 2 toughest holes that I have ever played are all at Bear Creek Golf Club in Denver. The first hole is a 630 yard par 5. The second hole is a 470 yard par four with a 200 yard caryover trees. The fourth hole is a blind dogleg left over a water hazard and trees, and to get home in two on this 470+ yard hole, you must hit a ball over water to a green surrounded by traps. The 8th is like driving to a small green, except it’s your fairway, left and your in weeds, right, a trap. And the second shot is an uphill shot that plays about 170-200 yards depending on the wind on this 430 yard hole. The 12th hole is about 580 yards, 2nd shot across water, and uphill to the green. The 13th is a par 2 that can play 193 yards, and is 70 feet downhill over water. The 15th has a trap where you’d ideally want to hit the ball, makin this 460yard hole tough. 16 is the most famous at the course playing 463 yards, it is a blind tee shot through "the shoot" (a group of trees), push it right and your reteeing because of a lake, hit it left and you get a 210 to 235 yard shot in to a peninsula green that is only 20 yards deep. The 17th hole is a par three that could play up to 260 yards if the pin is back! The shot goes over water to a tripple trapped, tri tiered green. 18 is a 430 yard hole that requires a 240 yard drive or better to carry a ditch. As for the rest of the holes, 3 is a 220 yard par 3, 5 is a 424 yard uphiller, 6 is a 460 yard layup on the drive hole to one of the toughest greens you’ll ever encounter. 7 is a rest at 115 yards. 9 is an uphill 592 yard par 5 witha second shot needing to fly over a creek.10 is a 423 yard hole with a huge trap to keep you from crossing the dog leg. 11 is a 430 yard hole that requires a 3 wood or 2 iron layup to keep your ball from flying into a ravine (more like a big hole really). The 14th is a 555 yard par 5 that uses a 2 iron layup, or a driver to get home in 2, but don’t break a window to the right, or send your ball into the water hazard on the left. The greens, they’re all at least double tiered, most have tripple tiers, and your lucky to two put if your one tier off, and if you three put from being 2 tiers from ideal, be happy it wasn’t worse. This is by far the toughest course that I think there is in the state of Colorado, although its only 7,300 yards normally, it is easily able to play over 7,700 yards on a given day.
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Re: same thread… The Atkinson Golf & Country Club (Atkinson, NH) opened its back nine this year and, in my view, has several poorly designed holes. Among them is #12 – a par 5 dogleg right. The tee shot requires a precise drive of about 180-230 yds. Too long and it goes through fairway into bunker which plays down most of left side, too short and second shot is blocked. Left is sand, right is deep woods. Going for the green in 2 is almost impossible for mortal men as there is a pond & gulley in front of green. Second must be middle iron layup to short-mid iron approach. Short of green rolls into pond, long goes into woods, left is trap, right is junk & trees. Hole, if played to a par is layup fairway wood, layup iron & approach with no room for error. Birdie from an up & down is not likely. Not a fun hole! The back nine on this course (keeping with the designer’s philosophy) features very narrow fairways, only one hole where a driver is a good percentage play, three greens with so much slope that a down- hill chip or putt is an even money bet to stay on the green. Another weird hole is #16, a par 5, shaped like a banana left to right where the only safe tee shot is a very low large fade – because, the fairway slopes severely from right to left. If you draw the ball you cannot play this hole! If you want to try for a par, you use a mid iron, a fairway wood and another mid iron to an elevated green which is severely sloped back to front. The answer is: "No, I don’t play this course anymore!" BDW P. S. It also has three holes where blind approach shots occur. This obviously slows down play and/or makes it a bit dicey for the putters.
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Nope. There is no way around the pond. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 200 yards to clear the pond?! Is there any other way around it? I can only hit it 200 with a solid, straight hit (with my 3, my only wood). Granted, I haven’t used it enough to become proficient with it, but that seems pretty rough. The course at the local university has a par five that doglegs 90 degrees right at about 150 yards from the tee. Both sides of the fairway are lined with trees and the right side has a very dense stand of pines that are too thick to go through and too high to go over. After you hit your tee shot (I use a 7 iron) you are faced with a long carry over a pond, about 200 yards to clear the pond and about 220 yards to reach the "fairway" a very small landing area with very deep rough short and to each side. From there you have about 100 yards or less to a very shallow green with OB behind. If you choose to lay up on your second to the edge of the pond, which is downhill from the landing area and very hard to stop short of, you only need a wedge. Then for your third shot you are faced with a long shot to the green, which is back up the hill, from a downhill lie. I really hate this hole!! Greg
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Sorry, If your newsreader does as mine does, then it reformatted the message I posted which destroyed my pretty graphic representation of what the 16th hole at Manassas Park looks like. Sigh.
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200 yards to clear the pond?! Is there any other way around it? I can only hit it 200 with a solid, straight hit (with my 3, my only wood). Granted, I haven’t used it enough to become proficient with it, but that seems pretty rough. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The course at the local university has a par five that doglegs 90 degrees right at about 150 yards from the tee. Both sides of the fairway are lined with trees and the right side has a very dense stand of pines that are too thick to go through and too high to go over. After you hit your tee shot (I use a 7 iron) you are faced with a long carry over a pond, about 200 yards to clear the pond and about 220 yards to reach the "fairway" a very small landing area with very deep rough short and to each side. From there you have about 100 yards or less to a very shallow green with OB behind. If you choose to lay up on your second to the edge of the pond, which is downhill from the landing area and very hard to stop short of, you only need a wedge. Then for your third shot you are faced with a long shot to the green, which is back up the hill, from a downhill lie. I really hate this hole!! Greg
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Manassas Park, VA., 16th hole (as I remember)…a par 4, 320 yd (I think), which is fairly straight but what you can’t see from the tee is that the layout is: / | / | / | / 100 ft / | / _ tee / / —– / / / / / / / / / / With woods on both sides of a narrow fairway. The fairway (shown flat here) actually slopes up to the last 10 yards or so before the dropoff, then slopes down. The green has three terraced levels and the hole is generally placed on one of the terrace slopes. Most everyone who doesn’t hit into the "small" ravine off the tee or into the woods on either side, drives it long into the deep ravine from which it is a bitch to escape. The last time I played it was the first time I ever got on the green in 2 by hitting a clean 5 iron dead straight to the edge of the fairway slope, then a 6 iron up to the green, which I 4 putted.
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There’s a course near where I live called Pipestone GC. The 2nd hole is a longish par 5 that’s set up on such an extreme slant that during the summer, when the fairway is fairly dry, a well hit drive will run from the center of the fairway right into a pond that borders the hole. Of course for me and my usual slice, it’s safe if you’re far enough right into the rough and trees!!! — T.M. Harover | Lexis-Nexis | Vegetarians eat vegetables… beware of 9443 Springboro Pike | humanitarians! Miamisburg, OH |
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I’ve played a couple of Steven Kay courses in NJ and he likes to include unplayable par 5s in his design. Blue Heron Pines’ signature hole has a 100+ yard waste area where you would like to lay up. It’s a 540 yard par 5 and the drive lands on an upslope so you can’t get home in 2. The waste area starts at 200 yards from the green and ends about 80 yards from the green. You end up with a 50 yard pitch over a deep bunker to a firm green. Stanton Ridge has a par 5 that doglegs right at about 230. There’s OB on the right side and a lake on the left. The margin of error for a driver is tiny, so you need to lay back with your tee shot. The landing area at 100 yards is about 15 yards wide and slopes severely towards the lake. I haven’t seen anyone keep it in the fairway, so you end up with a 100 shot from the rough even if you hit 2 good shots. Bob Dietrich
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The course at the local university has a par five that doglegs 90 degrees right at about 150 yards from the tee. Both sides of the fairway are lined with trees and the right side has a very dense stand of pines that are too thick to go through and too high to go over. After you hit your tee shot (I use a 7 iron) you are faced with a long carry over a pond, about 200 yards to clear the pond and about 220 yards to reach the "fairway" a very small landing area with very deep rough short and to each side. From there you have about 100 yards or less to a very shallow green with OB behind. If you choose to lay up on your second to the edge of the pond, which is downhill from the landing area and very hard to stop short of, you only need a wedge. Then for your third shot you are faced with a long shot to the green, which is back up the hill, from a downhill lie. I really hate this hole!! Greg
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About 20 years ago, I was playing in a tournament just north of San Diego. They had several interesting holes but one in particular was rather intimidating. The hole dogleged to the left, and I mean dogleged. If you teed your ball up as far right as possible and hit it just to the right of a huge stand of trees on the left of the tee box, you better not hit it over 120 yards or you’re O.B. Yep. That’s right. You need to hit a snap hook tee shot off this hole or it’s reload time. I’m sure the regular members love pulling out their wedges for a chop shot of the tee. What the hell. Even Pete Dye had to start somewhere.
Encountered on a course I will never play again: a par 3 of about 195 yards with a stand of mature deciduous trees maybe 50′ high directly in front of the green. On the same course, a dogleg left par 4. I hit a draw that just missed the line of trees on my left. I thought it was a fine shot. Thirty yards into the right rough. (At least it wasn’t marked O.B.) The very next hole: a 110 yard par 3 with a six-foot high pile of boulders at each of the four corners of the green. Laugh? I thought I’d die laughing. (Maybe SNL could use it in a skit. Don’t know what else it’s good for.) — Tim DeLaney
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<<I hate these types of holes… Any hole/layout that puts golfers in danger… in path of shots from other holes , blind tee shot from the hole itself… When I see a tee or green area surrounded with chicken wire, it’s a bad sign… When I see a "ring bell once past this point" it’s a bad sign. Blind par 3’s or blind approach shots… even the ones where you can check out the pin location while playing previous holes. Any holes with severe undulations in slope Any holes/layout that slow up play Any holes I can’t par LOL, so what holes do you like? I agree with some of those. I hate the chicken wire setups — usually a sign of a course that has sold off a lot of land and bunched tees in. Anyone from the Boston area probably is familiar with Newton Commonwealth — that was great course until they sold off half their land. I swear there are holes there that cris-cross. I disagree about undulations and blind shots. I don’t mind ring bell holes and the such. I think the blind shot is part — every now and then — is a great test of a golfer’s imagination. If anyone is familiar with Lahinch on the West Coast of Ireland, I’m going to say it’s 14th hole — it’s a well known par-3, probably about 130 yards or so. The problem is the entire green is obscured by this giant hill. They put a rock on top of the hill to offer golfers a target as to where the pin may be. When I first played it, I hated it. Mind you if you’re a little short, you’ll catch the downslope of the hill and run clear across. My opinion as softened a bit over the years to the point where I do recognize it as a great hole, just because of the mental hazard it presents.
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Arthur Hills designed a hole in Tucson at Heather Highlands that defies logic. All it needs is a windmill or clown. Its Number 13 I think. It requires a straight tee shot up hill. If you don’t hit it far enough you can’t see the narrow green that is located between a rockpile and sand trap bordered by desert flora. Faders end up in the desert to the right. The fairway slopes that way. It ruins an otherwise wonderful experience. Bob
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About 20 years ago, I was playing in a tournament just north of San Diego. They had several interesting holes but one in particular was rather intimidating. The hole dogleged to the left, and I mean dogleged. If you teed your ball up as far right as possible and hit it just to the right of a huge stand of trees on the left of the tee box, you better not hit it over 120 yards or you’re O.B. Yep. That’s right. You need to hit a snap hook tee shot off this hole or it’s reload time. I’m sure the regular members love pulling out their wedges for a chop shot of the tee. What the hell. Even Pete Dye had to start somewhere.
I call these backwards holes (any hole where you are likely to hit a longer club on your second shot than your tee shot). I happen to find them interesting…
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I *hate* holes that have gimmicks like having to hit around a pole, or internal O.B. There is one near here that is an up hill par five, dog leg right around a pond. There is a #$%^&$ pole at the corner of the dog leg that you have to go around, so you can’t cut off the pond with a big drive leaving a middle iron in. I will likely never play that course again just because of that hole. Chris Holcombe Milton, PA ACHY 98
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There us a hole at Greendale in Va where an elevated tee box faces a large hill (which is supposedly the fairway). The hill slopes down 200 feet twards the right. The green is around the steep grade hill to the left so the only thing that keeps a shot that hits the fairway from rolling all the way down the hill to the right are some railroad ties (which are a free drop). -Alex It is a semi dogleg around a large steep hill to a green below that is below the tee box. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I *hate* holes that have gimmicks like having to hit around a pole, or internal O.B. There is one near here that is an up hill par five, dog leg right around a pond. There is a #$%^&$ pole at the corner of the dog leg that you have to go around, so you can’t cut off the pond with a big drive leaving a middle iron in. I will likely never play that course again just because of that hole. Chris Holcombe Milton, PA ACHY 98
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I hate these types of holes… Any hole/layout that puts golfers in danger… in path of shots from other holes , blind tee shot from the hole itself… When I see a tee or green area surrounded with chicken wire, it’s a bad sign… When I see a "ring bell once past this point" it’s a bad sign. Blind par 3’s or blind approach shots… even the ones where you can check out the pin location while playing previous holes. Any holes with severe undulations in slope Any holes/layout that slow up play Any holes I can’t par regards,
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About 20 years ago, I was playing in a tournament just north of San Diego. They had several interesting holes but one in particular was rather intimidating. The hole dogleged to the left, and I mean dogleged. If you teed your ball up as far right as possible and hit it just to the right of a huge stand of trees on the left of the tee box, you better not hit it over 120 yards or you’re O.B. Yep. That’s right. You need to hit a snap hook tee shot off this hole or it’s reload time. I’m sure the regular members love pulling out their wedges for a chop shot of the tee. What the hell. Even Pete Dye had to start somewhere.