Question:
Been reading lots of posts and threads about Tiger Woods ‘allegedly’ bad behaviour, and I’m wondering: who cares? To a lot of folks, golf has been one of the most boring of all sports ever since man decided to try something (semi-) athletic. Players like Woods, John Daly, and others — *characters* — bring new blood to the game and are responsible for the boom in golf, both in a financial and popularity sense, over the past five years or so. Why do so many people care if Woods swears, or throws his clubs around? Why do you let it affect you? It’s very common in all sports for the true ‘geniuses’ to be very volatile with their emotions. Is it so terrible if a golfer swears? I remember the ‘controversy’ that occured a few years back when Fred Couples swore on camera during the Honda Classic when he blew a shot in a playoff; I remember all the posts and the press. And I’m thinking: what’s the big deal? People swear all the time. If you’d been working on a project for four days at your office and then you did something stupid that blew it all, you’d be pretty annoyed, too. Just because Fred had a camera in his face doesn’t mean he feels the intensity any less. For every Tiger Woods out there, there’s a hundred super-boring tour pros who just ‘get on with the job’. That’s great, and they’re the lifeline of the tour, but people don’t pay to see that. At the end of the day, professional sports exist to *make money*. People want to be entertained. And yes, you can be entertained when anybody shoots a round of 62. But how many players can, week in, week out, sizzle the course? Not many, and I’ll be loathe to berate those that can just because they wear their emotions on their sleeve and care about how they’re doing. Woods is more interesting than virtually every other player even when he’s shooting a 75. Because he’s out there, busting his gut, and you know he really wants it. Can you say that about everybody else? All sports have their contrasting players, and that’s what keeps it interesting. Think Borg v McEnroe. I realise I’m going to get some stick for this comment, but a lot of very good players, a lot of the ‘gents’ of the game, are also very tedious to watch: Ben Crenshaw, Bernard Langer, Nick Faldo, etc. These are great players and they do all the right things, but they don’t, generally, astound us with their personality. "That isn’t their role", I hear you cry, and you’re right, but: when somebody gives us the full package, we’re not only more likely to listen to them, but we’re also more likely to tell our friends. I don’t want any sport to be dominated by personality-lacking clones. Maybe I’m unique, but I’ll always take John McEnroe over Bjorn Borg, Dennis Rodman over David Robinson, George Best over Alan Shearer, and Tiger Woods over Ben Crenshaw, if I had to pick. There are limits, naturally; but I for one am so tired of the "golf country club mentality" that still dominates what is, at the end of the day, a game where you hit a ball around with sticks. Bring on the characters.
Response:
To a lot of folks, golf has been one of the most boring of all sports ever since man decided to try something (semi-) athletic. Players like Woods, John Daly, and others — *characters* — bring new blood to the game and are responsible for the boom in golf, both in a financial and popularity sense, over the past five years or so. Bring on the characters.
The only problem I have with your post is the general idea that the "bad" guys are the characters, and the "good" guys are the drones. To condone the boorish, anti-etiquette behaviour of a tantrum thrower because he’s a "character" is sadly lamentable. And can’t a "good" guy be a character? … Andre Agassi (as opposed to John McEnroe) or Jesper Parnevik, for example. Next you’ll be telling me that tennis is all the better because of Jeff Tarango. Cheers Colin Wilson Current Australian handicap: 9.6 RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm Trentham Golf Club: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham
Response:
The only problem I have with your post is the general idea that the "bad" guys are the characters, and the "good" guys are the drones. To condone the boorish, anti-etiquette behaviour of a tantrum thrower because he’s a "character" is sadly lamentable. And can’t a "good" guy be a character? … Andre Agassi (as opposed to John McEnroe) or Jesper Parnevik, for example.
Actually, I originally had Andre Agassi v Pete Sampras in my example but changed it to McEnroe v Borg. Agassi is *not* the good guy of tennis! He’s improved greatly over the past few years but Agassi was a major brat at the beginning of his career. He’s calmed down with age but he’s still fiery at times. Parnevik is a character for different reasons. And it isn’t about good guys v bad guys; the point of this thread was the discussion of ‘bad behaviour’ amongst the top players. Next you’ll be telling me that tennis is all the better because of Jeff Tarango.
Again, you’re missing the point. Tarango is a journeyman pro — and while I think his OTT behaviour did have some upside, like opening up some closer inspection of umpires — he didn’t really bring anything to the game *aside* from his antics. And like I also said, obviously, there are limits. Now, before anyone comes back with a "Oh, so what you’re saying is that it’s alright for the top players to misbehave, but the ‘journeyman’ pros have to be gents, hmm?"; I’m not saying that at all. I’m just saying that sports take emotions to the extreme and people need to just realise that under immense pressure an individual is open to certain (in) actions. If you never swear, never throw your clubs around, and never talk back to people when they’ve disturbed you at an important time, then great– you’re either a perfect human being, or incredibly dull. – Shea Before you buy.
Response:
I don’t want any sport to be dominated by personality-lacking clones. Maybe I’m unique, but I’ll always take … Dennis Rodman over David Robinson, … if I had to pick. There are limits, naturally; but I for one am so tired of the "golf country club mentality" that still dominates what is, at the end of the day, a game where you hit a ball around with sticks. Bring on the characters.
How can anyone who likes what Dennis Rodman has done to basketball, to sports in general for that matter, go on to say they think that there are limits? The crux of your argument belies a belief that the sport, for you, is about entertainment. If a sports character is entertaining, nothing he/she does can be all bad. I can’t argue that point, except to say that others believe, just as correctly, that golf in particular (but other sports as well) are more about the test of physique and character. I’d bet you find chess pointless, and not a sport at all. No entertainment value. Certainly no physical effort, even though chess masters lose more weight during a championship that many marathoners do. Golf pre-tiger was probably just as boring. I can’t tell you that your apparent view of sports as entertainment is wrong. You have the right to look for whatever you want in the game. But for others, sports in general and golf in particular are about more than that. It’s a test of character as much as a test of physique. Personally, I hate what basketball has become, and Dennis Rodman epitomizes the trend the game has gone to. Maybe it’s because I’m a Bostonian and the Celtics have gone nowhere but down. But gone are the days when, during a championship series against the hated Lakers, Celtics fans in the Garden gave the visiting and conquering team a standing ovation for good play. I hate the direction football has gone. It’s all about getting your image onto Sports Center. Players are judged for their endzone trot more than their play before the whistle. I’ve seen defensive backs celebrate hits on the quarterbacks while opposing wide receivers ran for touchdowns. Recently, a NE Patriot defensive player was so busy celebrating his hit on the opposing QB that he neglected to pick up the fumble he caused, allowing the opposing team to recover it and press onward. As I recall, that mistake was one of the factors that cost the Patriots a crucial game. So you keep Deion Sanders. I’ll take Barry Sanders, casually handing the ref the football after single-handedly avoiding the entire defense en route to a touchdown any day. What DD did on the 18th fairway Sunday was pure stupidity. In a recent thread entitled Bad etiquette (or something similar), I recounted an experience I had… A player I happened to be paired with, in frustration following his second shot, walked across the fairway hacking the ground with his iron, digging up divots. Someone replied to my story, calling this character an apparent asshole. He was right. I hope David Duval is reading this. When Tiger loses his cool, he’s hurting himself more than others. This is a game of focus, after all. (Though I’m personally not bothered by profanity.) When Vijay or any one else slams their putter in frustration, that’s bad for the part of the game that I enjoy. If, instead, DD tried his best but succumbed to the divot, then reluctantly accepted his fate, I’d still have respect for him. Indeed, I’d admire him for his all but perfect play in this tourney. There’s alot to admire in someone who, with good play, defeats 99.9% of the players in the world! Now, he seems nothing more than a win or die loser to me – second in the world or not. — Peter John Anton
Response:
The crux of your argument belies a belief that the sport, for you, is about entertainment. If a sports character is entertaining, nothing he/she does can be all bad. I can’t argue that point, except to say that others believe, just as correctly, that golf in particular (but other sports as well) are more about the test of physique and character. I’d bet you find chess pointless, and not a sport at all. No entertainment value. Certainly no physical effort, even though chess masters lose more weight during a championship that many marathoners do. Golf pre-tiger was probably just as boring.
I don’t find chess pointless at all, but I don’t *quite* think it can be labled as a sport. Whatever gave you that idea? If chess is a sport, then hmm, Trivial Pursuit must be as well. I don’t think so. I’ve been a golf fan for I guess fifteen years or thereabouts. Golf pre-Tiger was certainly not boring — I think you’re reading into my comments that I’m this huge Woods’ fan, but I’m not, and that’s not the point. The point is, again, that golf remains, unfortunately, a sport with too much emphasis on the country-club mentality. But for others, sports in general and golf in particular are about more than that. It’s a test of character as much as a test of physique.
That reads well as the intro to an almanac on sport, but if a sport has low entertainment value (say, Ice Fishing) I don’t think one is too concerned with the ‘test of character’. What DD did on the 18th fairway Sunday was pure stupidity. In a recent thread entitled Bad etiquette (or something similar), I recounted an experience I had… A player I happened to be paired with, in frustration following his second shot, walked across the fairway hacking the ground with his iron, digging up divots. Someone replied to my story, calling this character an apparent asshole. He was right. I hope David Duval is reading this.
Again, I’m not suggesting that everybody goes out there F’ing and blinding and digging up divots after bad shots. My point is that this is normal human behaviour and you will find it in all aspects of life. There is no right or wrong in situations like this: there’s your perpsective on what *should* be done, and that’s great, but that isn’t how everyone is going to behave. When Tiger loses his cool, he’s hurting himself more than others. This is a game of focus, after all. (Though I’m personally not bothered by profanity.) When Vijay or any one else slams their putter in frustration, that’s bad for the part of the game that I enjoy.
I disagree completely; it makes no difference to anybody else. And your opening statement is just plain foolish; I think Woods run of form this past year or so severely undermines your point. And I think the fact that a super-laid-back player like Singh blows up occasionally is very much proof of the pudding: that it is normal behaviour. If, instead, DD tried his best but succumbed to the divot, then reluctantly accepted his fate, I’d still have respect for him. Indeed, I’d admire him for his all but perfect play in this tourney. There’s alot to admire in someone who, with good play, defeats 99.9% of the players in the world! Now, he seems nothing more than a win or die loser to me – second in the world or not.
If DD had done nothing, chances are nobody would have known about the divot (unless he pointed it out, which would have looked like sour grapes). And really, if you just stand there and ‘accept your fate’, then excuse me, but you’re a sheep. People get mad, even if only for a moment, because, once again, it’s perfectly normal. – Shea
Response:
But for others, sports in general and golf in particular are about more than that. It’s a test of character as much as a test of physique. That reads well as the intro to an almanac on sport, but if a sport has low entertainment value (say, Ice Fishing) I don’t think one is too concerned with the ‘test of character’.
Quite the contrary… I’d still be interested. I think only the fans who love the drama and highlights of players’ fist pumping and slamming clubs would leave. Again, I’m not suggesting that everybody goes out there F’ing and blinding and digging up divots after bad shots. My point is that this is normal human behaviour and you will find it in all aspects of life. There is no right or wrong in situations like this: there’s your perpsective on what *should* be done, and that’s great, but that isn’t how everyone is going to behave.
I can’t disagree here… Furthermore, had it been me on the 18th instead of DD (as if that could EVER happen!), I assure you I probably would have done a little more than he did – all my ivory ethics arguments aside! I bet they’d be forced to cut to commercial… But there is a right and wrong to these actions. Simply calling it human nature doesn’t in any way mean that there isn’t. When Tiger loses his cool, he’s hurting himself more than others. This is a game of focus, after all. (Though I’m personally not bothered by profanity.) When Vijay or any one else slams their putter in frustration, that’s bad for the part of the game that I enjoy. I disagree completely; it makes no difference to anybody else. And your opening statement is just plain foolish; I think Woods run of form this past year or so severely undermines your point.
I simply feel differently. You seem to equate victory and entertainment as justification for an individual’s behavior. It isn’t. Tiger’s run proves nothing other than his ability to play well. My understanding of human nature leads me to believe that with better control of emotions, he’d be even better. But we both have to admit that psychoanalyzing a celebrity that (I assume) neither of us has ever met is probably a purely hypothetical argument. Besides, Tiger has gained more equilibrium as of late. Perhaps he’s matured, perhaps he’s gained better control of his negative emotions… or perhaps victory is easier to live with 
If, instead, DD tried his best but succumbed to the divot, then reluctantly accepted his fate, I’d still have respect for him. Indeed, I’d admire him for his all but perfect play in this tourney. There’s alot to admire in someone who, with good play, defeats 99.9% of the players in the world! Now, he seems nothing more than a win or die loser to me – second in the world or not. If DD had done nothing, chances are nobody would have known about the divot (unless he pointed it out, which would have looked like sour grapes).
Not true.. I believe that the announcers would have mentioned it. Did they mention it before his tantrum? I honestly don’t remember. Either way, I’ve got to believe that someone would have brought up that last shot to him (if they weren’t afraid to, which they wouldn’t be if he were a good sport about it), and mentioning it then would not be considered sour grapes unless he tantrumed then as well. I’ve got alot of respect for some who says "I did my best with an unlucky lie, but fell short. Next year, hopefully my luck will be better." Surely that’s a hell of alot better than his cutlery. And your implying that DD needed to "tell" everyone why his shot fell so short by hacking the turf. That is not justification for his actions. Again, your arguments belie a belief that the viewer rather than the precipitant is the important factor in the precipitant’s actions. Who says you need to know the ball was in a divot? In your sports world, that info needs to be out. In my admittedly ideal sports world, the only one who needs to know that is David Duval (plus his caddy and the other precipitants nearby whose actions may or may not be affected by that knowledge). You say that without characters sports would be boring to watch. Well, what’s wrong with a sport that you choose not to watch? And really, if you just stand there and ‘accept your fate’, then excuse me, but you’re a sheep.
You are sheep if you give in to things you can avoid, but you’re childish if you fuss and tantrum over things you can’t. I do think it’s a shame that he found a divot. It diminished, unfairly, what little chance he had left. But doing his best and accepting the result is not being a sheep. People get mad, even if only for a moment, because, once again, it’s perfectly normal.
We all are emotional by nature, but what we do with those emotions is important. IMHO, DD lost control of his actions. That’s a shame, because (again, IMHO) with better control of his emotions, he’d have had a better chance to win. Vijay, by comparison, was calm and played under control, and did not succomb to pressure that would kill the ordinary human. — Peter John Anton Technical Manager, MicroPRINT Waltham, Mass., USA 781-890-7500
Response:
Shea wrote (very heavily snipped…): And I’m thinking: what’s the big deal? People swear all the time.
That’s the whole point. People didn’t always "swear all the time": It wasn’t too long ago that public swearing, spitting, urination, drunkenness, drug use, street crime and so on were MUCH rarer than they are now. People had much more respect for others and themselves.. And while it’s obvious that we can’t blame the degeneration of politeness in society entirely on television and celebrities, it’s certainly a major contributing factor.
Response:
Been reading lots of posts and threads about Tiger Woods ‘allegedly’ bad behaviour, and I’m wondering: who cares?
I do. Them acting like 3 year old throwing a tantrum disturbs my enjoyable 4 hour walk through a golf course. I also don’t want to have to hit out of divots on the tee box caused by boorish behavior, nor see the remains of a sprinkler head that someone wanted to destry because they hit an errant shot. Guess what: most people do (even the best) hit an occassional poor shot (see Duval, Masters 2000, 13th hole) To a lot of folks, golf has been one of the most boring of all sports ever since man decided to try something (semi-) athletic. Players like Woods, John Daly, and others — *characters* — bring new blood to the game and are responsible for the boom in golf, both in a financial and popularity sense, over the past five years or so. Why do so many people care if Woods swears, or throws his clubs around? Why do you let it affect you? It’s very common in all sports for the true ‘geniuses’ to be very volatile with their emotions. Is it so terrible if a golfer swears?
Swearing is one thing. Acting like an infant isn’t professional behavior. Nor is it part of the etiquette, where there should be respect for the course as well as your fellow competitor. It isn’t the golf courses fault that you chillidipped your approach to the green, and it went in the water. I remember the ‘controversy’ that occured a few years back when Fred Couples swore on camera during the Honda Classic when he blew a shot in a playoff; I remember all the posts and the press. And I’m thinking: what’s the big deal? People swear all the time. If you’d been working on a project for four days at your office and then you did something stupid that blew it all, you’d be pretty annoyed, too. Just because Fred had a camera in his face doesn’t mean he feels the intensity any less.
Swearing also makes the person who is doing it less of a person. It shows lack of education, as well as a lack of temper control. No one hit his shot for him. For every Tiger Woods out there, there’s a hundred super-boring tour pros who just ‘get on with the job’. That’s great, and they’re the lifeline of the tour, but people don’t pay to see that. At the end of the day, professional sports exist to *make money*. People want to be entertained. And yes, you can be entertained when anybody shoots a round of 62. But how many players can, week in, week out, sizzle the course? Not many, and I’ll be loathe to berate those that can just because they wear their emotions on their sleeve and care about how they’re doing. Woods is more interesting than virtually every other player even when he’s shooting a 75. Because he’s out there, busting his gut, and you know he really wants it. Can you say that about everybody else?
You might not be entertained by someone shooting a 68, but I sure am. I watch golf (when I can’t be out there playing it) for the love of the game, and to see golf at it’s finest. It’s not WWF wrastin’, where I hear obviously scripted lines and imaginary kicks, punches, et al. (FTR, that isn’t entertainment to me either.) All sports have their contrasting players, and that’s what keeps it interesting. Think Borg v McEnroe. I realise I’m going to get some stick for this comment, but a lot of very good players, a lot of the ‘gents’ of the game, are also very tedious to watch: Ben Crenshaw, Bernard Langer, Nick Faldo, etc. These are great players and they do all the right things, but they don’t, generally, astound us with their personality.
What do you equate personality with? Tantrums, boorish behavior, screaming at spectators? I’ll take your "boring" players any day because they are in it for the $$$, the game, and the chance to be cheered by larger than municipal course galleries. I rather see their personalities off the course than on it. "That isn’t their role", I hear you cry, and you’re right, but: when somebody gives us the full package, we’re not only more likely to listen to them, but we’re also more likely to tell our friends. I don’t want any sport to be dominated by personality-lacking clones. Maybe I’m unique, but I’ll always take John McEnroe over Bjorn Borg, Dennis Rodman over David Robinson, George Best over Alan Shearer, and Tiger Woods over Ben Crenshaw, if I had to pick.
Since you prefer the colorful "personalities" of athletics, you go right ahead and cheer for them. I’ll take the workhorses and boring athletes any day. They tend, for me, to put a better mark on the sport they play, and will be remembered 50 years from now for their hard work, their work ethic, and their presence in their respectable hall of fame. I also doubt that Mr. Rodman will get there. There are limits, naturally; but I for one am so tired of the "golf country club mentality" that still dominates what is, at the end of the day, a game where you hit a ball around with sticks.
Isn’t that what golf is all about? Hitting a little white ball with a club around the great outdoors? What about croquet? — Teresa Williamson roll call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/williamsont.htm RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bring on the characters.
Response:
Swearing also makes the person who is doing it less of a person. It shows lack of education, as well as a lack of temper control.
Temper control aside, this is such nonsense! How can swearing show a lack of education? If anything, a person who does not swear must have less of a vocab than an equal person who does. Swearing has nothing to do with a lack of education, nor does the lack of swearing indicate a heightened education. As for temper, my earlier point stands: if you don’t feel it, then you won’t react to it. People all over the world get upset over the smallest of things; when major glory, prizes and money are at stake, we’re all prone to the occasional outburst. This isn’t a Sunday afternoon stroll at your local municipal Before you buy.
Response:
Been reading lots of posts and threads about Tiger Woods ‘allegedly’ bad behaviour, and I’m wondering: who cares?
I do. Arnold Palmer does. I can refer you to his interview on Golf Talk Live back in February that was replayed yesterday. He said that this type of stuff is important. I agree. To a lot of folks, golf has been one of the most boring of all sports ever since man decided to try something (semi-) athletic. Players like Woods, John Daly, and others — *characters* — bring new blood to the game and are responsible for the boom in golf, both in a financial and popularity sense, over the past five years or so.
Tiger Woods and John Daly’s behaviour has nothing to do with the upswing in golf popularity. John Daly’s cinderella story and booming drives and Tiger’s almost unbelievable talent and skill along with them both being from the "non-typical" background instead of being country-club old-money group. Arnold Palmer spurred a similar interest in golf in his day as the son of a steel worker, an everyday "Joe". Why do so many people care if Woods swears, or throws his clubs around? Why do you let it affect you? It’s very common in all sports for the true ‘geniuses’ to be very volatile with their emotions. Is it so terrible if a golfer swears?
Jack Nicklaus is the best there ever was and he has always been a gentlemen. I think he qualifies as a true genius, so your argument breaks down there. I remember the ‘controversy’ that occured a few years back when Fred Couples swore on camera during the Honda Classic when he blew a shot in a playoff; I remember all the posts and the press. And I’m thinking: what’s the big deal? People swear all the time. If you’d been working on a project for four days at your office and then you did something stupid that blew it all, you’d be pretty annoyed, too. Just because Fred had a camera in his face doesn’t mean he feels the intensity any less.
The problem is, when is it too much? When is it too far? If there are no limits, if there are no taboos, how far does it decline? I like standards and expectations of good bahviour. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For every Tiger Woods out there, there’s a hundred super-boring tour pros who just ‘get on with the job’. That’s great, and they’re the lifeline of the tour, but people don’t pay to see that. At the end of the day, professional sports exist to *make money*. People want to be entertained. And yes, you can be entertained when anybody shoots a round of 62. But how many players can, week in, week out, sizzle the course? Not many, and I’ll be loathe to berate those that can just because they wear their emotions on their sleeve and care about how they’re doing. Woods is more interesting than virtually every other player even when he’s shooting a 75. Because he’s out there, busting his gut, and you know he really wants it. Can you say that about everybody else? All sports have their contrasting players, and that’s what keeps it interesting. Think Borg v McEnroe. I realise I’m going to get some stick for this comment, but a lot of very good players, a lot of the ‘gents’ of the game, are also very tedious to watch: Ben Crenshaw, Bernard Langer, Nick Faldo, etc. These are great players and they do all the right things, but they don’t, generally, astound us with their personality. "That isn’t their role", I hear you cry, and you’re right, but: when somebody gives us the full package, we’re not only more likely to listen to them, but we’re also more likely to tell our friends. I don’t want any sport to be dominated by personality-lacking clones. Maybe I’m unique, but I’ll always take John McEnroe over Bjorn Borg, Dennis Rodman over David Robinson, George Best over Alan Shearer, and Tiger Woods over Ben Crenshaw, if I had to pick. There are limits, naturally; but I for one am so tired of the "golf country club mentality" that still dominates what is, at the end of the day, a game where you hit a ball around with sticks. Bring on the characters.
You can be an interesting "character" and still be a gentlemen. With the exception of what he said to Tiger, Fuzzy has always been a gentlemen AND a character. And I don’t even think he was really trying to be hurtful with what he said. Vijay Singh is no character, but he is a good, decent man or at least seems to be. And he is well spoken off. I enjoyed watching him. You appear to be a product of the MTV generation who can’t enjoy things unless they are extreme or on the edge. Where does it stop? When you go over the edge? Apparently.
Response:
I do. Arnold Palmer does. I can refer you to his interview on Golf Talk Live back in February that was replayed yesterday. He said that this type of stuff is important. I agree.
Yeah, and I’m sure, as several others have said in related threads in this group, that Palmer, Nicklaus, Snead, Nelson, Hogan, etc, never cussed or threw their clubs in anger at any stage in their careers (particularly when they were in their 20s). And personally, I don’t think Palmer’s opinion, valid as it as much as anyone elses, is the word of god. Tiger Woods and John Daly’s behaviour has nothing to do with the upswing in golf popularity. John Daly’s cinderella story and booming drives and Tiger’s
I never said their behaviour was responsible for the upswing in golf, but it’s very much part of the parcel, particularly with Daly. It presents an image that is new to the game and has attracted an enormous amount of interest. There have been many long hitters on the tour — Dennis Paulson and Jim Dent, for instance — and they have received probably less than one percentage point of the coverage of Daly and Woods. Why do you think that is? Why do so many people care if Woods swears, or throws his clubs around? Why do you let it affect you? It’s very common in all sports for the true ‘geniuses’ to be very volatile with their emotions. Is it so terrible if a golfer swears? Jack Nicklaus is the best there ever was and he has always been a gentlemen. I think he qualifies as a true genius, so your argument breaks down there.
Er, no. Since when does an exception suggest an argument breaks down? And furthermore, my comment again: "It’s very common in all sports…". Note the words: very common. The problem is, when is it too much? When is it too far? If there are no limits, if there are no taboos, how far does it decline? I like standards and expectations of good bahviour.
Of course. But throwing clubs and swearing, on an occasional basis, is normal behaviour. Most golfers do it at one time or another. You can be an interesting "character" and still be a gentlemen. With the exception of what he said to Tiger, Fuzzy has always been a gentlemen AND a character. And I don’t even think he was really trying to be hurtful with what he said.
Irrespective of whether he was being hurtful or not, it was a dumb thing to say, and one could argue that to go so far as to even say it out aloud suggests at least a partial belief. Still, that’s beside the point. Fuzzy is a character but I don’t think he got the blood boiling all that often. I don’t think he really drew in the crowds. Vijay Singh is no character, but he is a good, decent man or at least seems to be. And he is well spoken off. I enjoyed watching him. You appear to be a product of the MTV generation who can’t enjoy things unless they are extreme or on the edge. Where does it stop? When you go over the edge? Apparently.
I’m 28 years of age and I think I beat the MTV generation by a few years. I enjoy a lot of things, and my golfing ‘favourites’ range from Fred Couples to Jack Nicklaus to John Daly. My point, again, is that abnormal behaviour, on occasion, is normal, and that includes swearing and throwing clubs. – Shea Before you buy.
Response:
And really, if you just stand there and ‘accept your fate’, then excuse me, but you’re a sheep. People get mad, even if only for a moment, because, once again, it’s perfectly normal.
It’s also perfectly normal for people to want to take a pee! But you don’t find many golfers unzipping their flies in front of the gallery at the 18th of the Masters. Why? Because reasonable people try to contain what could be described as unreasonable and unacceptable behaviour. — Pat Williams
Response:
Shea, I don’t think this has anything to do with golf, per sec. Tiger Woods is a TV personality, like it it or not. If he swears, it is not due to acting, which is the usual way that swearing is heard on the TV. Rather, it is due to his natural behaviour and, generally, people don’t like to see their favourite TV personalities behaving in anything less than an impeccable manner. In a spooky way, when you see your favourite person behaving less than perfectly you might tend to examine your judgement in placing that person on your pedestal. I think that is why Tiger Woods gets such a lot of criticism. People don’t want to see him behaving less than impeccably because it tens to reflect on their own judgement. regards kev
Response:
Try this one … Other day I’m at the driving range with a friend picking up the game. The next bay over is this guy all tensed up, swearing after every shot, grabbing the club in both hands like he wants to snap it over his knee. He seemed genuinely embarassed by his frustration and a nice enough guy, but wow did he have it all wrong. Like I told my friend, in order swing well, play well, you have to relax. That’s the problem I have with the antics that seem more common on tour these days. Granted you always had the Tommy Bolts, but even Tommy had a sense of humor. Whether it’s the money or other pressure, dropping swears on camera abusing the course (how about that divot "repair" Duvall executed on 18 on Sunday?) is not the example to set for golfers new and old. The only on-course etiquette incident I can think of with Daly is his hitting the moving ball at the U.S. Open last year. Woods has thrown a tantrum or two, but frankly, other than his golf, I find him pretty boring. He rarely seems to be enjoying himself on the course. You want some examples of charismatic players, how about a Jimmy Demaret, an Arnold Palmer, a Lee Trevino or a Seve Ballesteros. You’re talking about good golfers, very competitive ones, who showed a lot of emotion, more often than not, positive emotion on the course. — JoePete – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Been reading lots of posts and threads about Tiger Woods ‘allegedly’ bad behaviour, and I’m wondering: who cares? To a lot of folks, golf has been one of the most boring of all sports ever since man decided to try something (semi-) athletic. Players like Woods, John Daly, and others — *characters* — bring new blood to the game and are responsible for the boom in golf,
Response:
<snip I’m 28 years of age and I think I beat the MTV generation by a few years. I enjoy a lot of things, and my golfing ‘favourites’ range from Fred Couples to Jack Nicklaus to John Daly. My point, again, is that abnormal behaviour, on occasion, is normal, and that includes swearing and throwing clubs.
Nope. You are on the leading edge of the MTV generation. I agree that occasional bad behaviour is no big deal depending on how bad the behaviour is and how occasional it is. Doing some things once is enough. Other things are no big deal occasionally but when part of a bigger pattern of bahaviour they add up to being worse than they would be standing alone. Examples:Occasionally muttering a curse word under your breath when you make a bad shot is no BIG deal, but it is not good in any case. We need to learn to control ourselves even when we are alone. This translates to controlling ourselves better in public. If this is done in public, on TV and it is picked up by a microphone and sent out to millions of homes across the world and the golfer knows this could happen, then this is worse. Controlling himself when he is with his buddies on the course playing or all alone helps to train himself to not do this. I think that what I was trying to say is that if we as the fans condone this kind of bahaviour at all it just makes it easier for the players by not having to live up to a higher standard. If a player does this type of thing even once and is called on it, he will think twice before doing it again. Then, after some time has passed and he has refrained from this type of behaviour, then kudos to him. At that point I am ready to forgive and forget. I don’t forgive and forget when they aren’t really sorry, evidenced by repeatedly doing these things that have NO "character" in my opinion.
Response:
All of us have our horror stories about golfers with no respect for the game, the etiquette, or the others on the course. I found the following article pretty interesting. The author points out just some of reasons why etiquette is a valid – and important – concept. http://www.seattletimes.com/news/sports/html98/clos10c_20000410.html May your next round be your best round. Dave Holo RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/holod.htm
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Been reading lots of posts and threads about Tiger Woods ‘allegedly’ bad behaviour, and I’m wondering: who cares? To a lot of folks, golf has been one of the most boring of all sports ever since man decided to try something (semi-) athletic. Players like Woods, John Daly, and others — *characters* — bring new blood to the game and are responsible for the boom in golf, both in a financial and popularity sense, over the past five years or so. Why do so many people care if Woods swears, or throws his clubs around? Why do you let it affect you? It’s very common in all sports for the true ‘geniuses’ to be very volatile with their emotions. Is it so terrible if a golfer swears? I remember the ‘controversy’ that occured a few years back when Fred Couples swore on camera during the Honda Classic when he blew a shot in a playoff; I remember all the posts and the press. And I’m thinking: what’s the big deal? People swear all the time. If you’d been working on a project for four days at your office and then you did something stupid that blew it all, you’d be pretty annoyed, too. Just because Fred had a camera in his face doesn’t mean he feels the intensity any less. For every Tiger Woods out there, there’s a hundred super-boring tour pros who just ‘get on with the job’. That’s great, and they’re the lifeline of the tour, but people don’t pay to see that. At the end of the day, professional sports exist to *make money*. People want to be entertained. And yes, you can be entertained when anybody shoots a round of 62. But how many players can, week in, week out, sizzle the course? Not many, and I’ll be loathe to berate those that can just because they wear their emotions on their sleeve and care about how they’re doing. Woods is more interesting than virtually every other player even when he’s shooting a 75. Because he’s out there, busting his gut, and you know he really wants it. Can you say that about everybody else? All sports have their contrasting players, and that’s what keeps it interesting. Think Borg v McEnroe. I realise I’m going to get some stick for this comment, but a lot of very good players, a lot of the ‘gents’ of the game, are also very tedious to watch: Ben Crenshaw, Bernard Langer, Nick Faldo, etc. These are great players and they do all the right things, but they don’t, generally, astound us with their personality. "That isn’t their role", I hear you cry, and you’re right, but: when somebody gives us the full package, we’re not only more likely to listen to them, but we’re also more likely to tell our friends. I don’t want any sport to be dominated by personality-lacking clones. Maybe I’m unique, but I’ll always take John McEnroe over Bjorn Borg, Dennis Rodman over David Robinson, George Best over Alan Shearer, and Tiger Woods over Ben Crenshaw, if I had to pick. There are limits, naturally; but I for one am so tired of the "golf country club mentality" that still dominates what is, at the end of the day, a game where you hit a ball around with sticks. Bring on the characters.
Response:
I thought this was fitting for the thread. I hope you enjoy it. "Manners are the happy way of doing things; each once a stroke of genius or of love-now repeated and hardened into usage. They form at last a rich varnish, with which the routine of life is washed, and its details adorned. If they are superficial, so are the dewdrops which give such depth to the morning meadows." Ralph Waldo Emerson
Response:
Interesting thread… in light of a program I saw on the Golf Channel last night (Monday 4/10), part of which was devoted to the last time players were miked on the course during a PGA tournament (ca. 1978, Harbor Town, Lanny Wadkins and Tom Kite to name two). It was an unmitigated disaster, not just because of the curse words which were plentiful… the real topper, according to the program, was a set of remarks made by Kite about a player in the group in front of him and how that player should be disciplined because he left huge divots at the tee box (!). These remarks were obviously not meant for public consumption – Kite had to apologize later – but this certainly fell into ungentlemanly behavior. Or does it? If I televise a golf event and it’s known that I will pick up any and all sound, and I run a disclaimer at the beginning of my telecast to that effect, is that irresponsible? Do I have a different responsibility with live TV vs. (my guess at the usual practice of) 10 second + tape-delays, not an unusual condition for golf to be broadcast today? Does it help or hurt to know that pro golfers act like the rest of us? For an interesting counter-example, look at the fuss made by the NBA coaches (not players) being miked. — People are like stained glass windows; they sparkle and shine when the sun is out, but when the darkness sets in their true beauty is revealed only if there is a light within… (Elisabeth Kubler-Ross)
Response:
. . . The author points out just some of reasons why etiquette is a valid – and important – concept. http://www.seattletimes.com/news/sports/html98/clos10c_20000410.html Been reading lots of posts and threads about Tiger Woods ‘allegedly’ bad behaviour, and I’m wondering: who cares? To a lot of folks, golf has been one of the most boring of all sports ever since man decided to try something (semi-) athletic. Players like
[snip long rationale for boorish behavior] There are limits, naturally; but I for one am so tired of the "golf country club mentality" that still dominates what is, at the end of the day, a game where you hit a ball around with sticks. Bring on the characters.
Dave – thanks for the article. Shea, if you are talking about golf as entertainment, then I would offer the following: I can’t get all that interested in watching a bunch of kids play games (unless they are my own kids, of which I have none.) When I spectate, my preferance is for watching a) mature adults; who b) are competent at their sport/game/whatever; who c) take themselves and the activity seriously; and d) maintain a sense of perspective. Seeing a bunch of immature adults slam their clubs on the ground, swear loudly, etc etc. is not my idea of a good time. If you are talking about golf as a participant, then I would suggest that some of us would rather play the game with mature adults who don’t go into tantrums, slam their clubs, etc etc. And therefore we are concerned when "role models" behave inappropriately and set a tone for inappropriate behavior. This is not about "country club" golf, my comments hold for any sport. You say that it is "natural" to get mad. I totally agree! It is also natural for puppies to chew on fine leather shoes; most dog owners would train the puppies what is apppropriate and what is not. It is natural for kittens to use their claws; most cat owners will teach their cats not to claw. It is called socialization, and it is a necessary part of the maturation/socialization process for a social animal; the young explore, by the time they become adults they have learned the limits. It is natural for kids to lose their tempers; unfortunately few parents bother to socialize their kids the way they would a puppie or kitten. So we wind up with immuture kids of all ages who have minor or major tantrums at the slightest excuse. I will watch Tiger or DD or some of the other kids occasionally because I do like to see that display of athletic skill. Five-ten minutes once or twice a year is enough. I prefer the Senior Tour; less quality, but a higher ratio of mature adults. — Stan H KC, MO "If we don’t succeed, then we run the risk of failure." (Dan Quayle) Before you buy.