Question:
Yesterday was one of those days that is good to be on the upside of the fairway. 67 degrees, sunshine, a zephyr of a breeze, and fall colors on the Pleasantville State University Golf Course. I shot a satisfying 80. I had two doubles. On the par 4 9th I was 30 yards short of the green in 2. The pin was cut very tight to the edge of the green and I thought my only chance of getting it close was with my 64 degree wedge. However, I was concerned about the lie because the turf was wet and soft and I considered taking a lower lofted wedge with more bounce to avoid what did happen with the 64.Ii hit just behind the ball, cut completely beneath it and pulled it into the bunker. A double ensued. On the par 5 13 th I pulled my second into the trees and chipped out to 125 yards away in 3. The pin was way over on a narrow promentory of green on the right side. I aimed at the pin, came up just 2 yards short in some thickish rough, and the second double bogey ensued. My question. Did I get too greedy going for par and bringing double into play? Should I have made sure I got on the green past the flag on 9, by aiming to the left away from the flag on 13, to try and take double out of the picture as Kenny would say. The game was stroke play. My skill level is that of a player for whom an 80 is not a source of anguish. More and more I feel like I am being pushed into a very conservative, avoid bad things style of play; the notion of me "attacking" the course has always been a foreign one. B. J. Wilkinson
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yesterday was one of those days that is good to be on the upside of the fairway. 67 degrees, sunshine, a zephyr of a breeze, and fall colors on the Pleasantville State University Golf Course. I shot a satisfying 80. I had two doubles. On the par 4 9th I was 30 yards short of the green in 2. The pin was cut very tight to the edge of the green and I thought my only chance of getting it close was with my 64 degree wedge. However, I was concerned about the lie because the turf was wet and soft and I considered taking a lower lofted wedge with more bounce to avoid what did happen with the 64.Ii hit just behind the ball, cut completely beneath it and pulled it into the bunker. A double ensued. On the par 5 13 th I pulled my second into the trees and chipped out to 125 yards away in 3. The pin was way over on a narrow promentory of green on the right side. I aimed at the pin, came up just 2 yards short in some thickish rough, and the second double bogey ensued. My question. Did I get too greedy going for par and bringing double into play? Should I have made sure I got on the green past the flag on 9, by aiming to the left away from the flag on 13, to try and take double out of the picture as Kenny would say. The game was stroke play. My skill level is that of a player for whom an 80 is not a source of anguish. More and more I feel like I am being pushed into a very conservative, avoid bad things style of play; the notion of me "attacking" the course has always been a foreign one. B. J. Wilkinson
This was one of the hardest things for me to come to grips with, i.e., understanding course management as the rational consideration of risk/reward. It’s about playing not to lose as opposed to playing to win, but it’s also more complicated than that. I have a sort of system for thinking about this kind of thing, similar to what Johnny Miller called Red Light/Green Light. Sometimes it’s worth attacking, because the costs aren’t that high if you miss. No bunkers around the green, say, or no US Open rough right by the green on the pin side. Other times are more Yellow Light (I don’t know if he said Yellow Light but it follows, at least for less accomplished players like me). I need to be cautious, because either the lie is not that great, I’m at a distance I’m not comfortable with (I *hate* 60 yard shots), or the wind is disadvantageous, or the pin is in a bad shot. I’ll be more cautious here, perhaps aiming for the center of the green regardless of where the pin is, accepting a probable bogey to take double out of play. When I get in those situations, I have been able to recognize that a par is tough, but what I want to do is give myself a *chance* at a par, with a longish putt, say. It is that thinking–"Give yourself a chance, but don’t take foolish chances"–which defines yellow light for me. There aren’t many red light situations, but there are a few. Something like playing to leave the ball on the front fringe, no better and no worse, and depend on getting up and down from there. This might happen if there’s water behind and the greens are very hard. I’m simply not going to risk hitting the green and having the ball bounce twice and into the water. Or I might have a shot from in the trees where I have a 10 percent chance of getting the ball within 15 feet of the hole, but an 80 percent chance of getting the ball on the front fringe. I’ll almost always take the front fringe shot, simply because the odds of getting close *and* sinking the putt aren’t that much greater than front fringe and getting up and down. And screwing up the first shot could result in 2-3 extra strokes depending. Many times after a bad shot I’ll change my goal for the hole: Instead of playing for par w/ a chance at a birdie, now it’s a bogey w/ a chance at par. That tends to keep me from trying the hero shots, and I’m amazed at how often I *do* manage to get a par anyway. It sounds to me like twice you could have aimed for the center of the green rather than the pin, and given yourself a much larger margin for error (Why do I suspect this? Been there, done that. :) I’m not suggesting never to go for it. Sometimes I’m so focused on what I’m doing that all I see is the flag, and my game is sharp, and given the state of my ballstriking that day, it *is* a green-light situation. But mostly I’m not that dialled in, and I end up in the mental calculus of risk/reward. Mike Mike Dalecki I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean! GCA Accredited Clubmaker. Web Site: http://www.dalecki.net/clubdoctor/ RSG-Wisconsin 2002 Report/Pics: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2002/part1.html RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yesterday was one of those days that is good to be on the upside of the fairway. 67 degrees, sunshine, a zephyr of a breeze, and fall colors on the Pleasantville State University Golf Course. I shot a satisfying 80. I had two doubles. On the par 4 9th I was 30 yards short of the green in 2. The pin was cut very tight to the edge of the green and I thought my only chance of getting it close was with my 64 degree wedge. However, I was concerned about the lie because the turf was wet and soft and I considered taking a lower lofted wedge with more bounce to avoid what did happen with the 64.Ii hit just behind the ball, cut completely beneath it and pulled it into the bunker. A double ensued. On the par 5 13 th I pulled my second into the trees and chipped out to 125 yards away in 3. The pin was way over on a narrow promentory of green on the right side. I aimed at the pin, came up just 2 yards short in some thickish rough, and the second double bogey ensued. My question. Did I get too greedy going for par and bringing double into play? Should I have made sure I got on the green past the flag on 9, by aiming to the left away from the flag on 13, to try and take double out of the picture as Kenny would say. The game was stroke play. My skill level is that of a player for whom an 80 is not a source of anguish. More and more I feel like I am being pushed into a very conservative, avoid bad things style of play; the notion of me "attacking" the course has always been a foreign one. B. J. Wilkinson This was one of the hardest things for me to come to grips with, i.e., understanding course management as the rational consideration of risk/reward. It’s about playing not to lose as opposed to playing to win, but it’s also more complicated than that. I have a sort of system for thinking about this kind of thing, similar to what Johnny Miller called Red Light/Green Light. Sometimes it’s worth attacking, because the costs aren’t that high if you miss. No bunkers around the green, say, or no US Open rough right by the green on the pin side. Other times are more Yellow Light (I don’t know if he said Yellow Light but it follows, at least for less accomplished players like me). I need to be cautious, because either the lie is not that great, I’m at a distance I’m not comfortable with (I *hate* 60 yard shots), or the wind is disadvantageous, or the pin is in a bad shot. I’ll be more cautious here, perhaps aiming for the center of the green regardless of where the pin is, accepting a probable bogey to take double out of play. When I get in those situations, I have been able to recognize that a par is tough, but what I want to do is give myself a *chance* at a par, with a longish putt, say. It is that thinking–"Give yourself a chance, but don’t take foolish chances"–which defines yellow light for me. There aren’t many red light situations, but there are a few. Something like playing to leave the ball on the front fringe, no better and no worse, and depend on getting up and down from there. This might happen if there’s water behind and the greens are very hard. I’m simply not going to risk hitting the green and having the ball bounce twice and into the water. Or I might have a shot from in the trees where I have a 10 percent chance of getting the ball within 15 feet of the hole, but an 80 percent chance of getting the ball on the front fringe. I’ll almost always take the front fringe shot, simply because the odds of getting close *and* sinking the putt aren’t that much greater than front fringe and getting up and down. And screwing up the first shot could result in 2-3 extra strokes depending. Many times after a bad shot I’ll change my goal for the hole: Instead of playing for par w/ a chance at a birdie, now it’s a bogey w/ a chance at par. That tends to keep me from trying the hero shots, and I’m amazed at how often I *do* manage to get a par anyway. It sounds to me like twice you could have aimed for the center of the green rather than the pin, and given yourself a much larger margin for error (Why do I suspect this? Been there, done that. :) I’m not suggesting never to go for it. Sometimes I’m so focused on what I’m doing that all I see is the flag, and my game is sharp, and given the state of my ballstriking that day, it *is* a green-light situation. But mostly I’m not that dialled in, and I end up in the mental calculus of risk/reward. Mike Mike Dalecki I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean! GCA Accredited Clubmaker. Web Site: http://www.dalecki.net/clubdoctor/ RSG-Wisconsin 2002 Report/Pics: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2002/part1.html RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim
Mike, I like the shoot for a bogey with a chance of a par mentality when there is a dangerous shot to the green in one over regulation. Brian
Response:
[snip] On the par 4 9th I was 30 yards short of the green in 2. The pin was cut very tight to the edge of the green and I thought my only chance of getting it close was with my 64 degree wedge. However, I was concerned about the lie because the turf was wet and soft and I considered taking a lower lofted wedge with more bounce to avoid what did happen with the 64.Ii hit just behind the ball, cut completely beneath it and pulled it into the bunker. A double ensued.
It seems like to me that a pin close to the front of the green automatically makes the hole a half a shot harder (What do yoo guys think?). And that going for the pin when it’s on the front is a common mistake, one I’ve made so many time it’s amazing that I really haven’t learned my lesson. You didn’t say why the double… Did you go fot the pin again from the trap when you shouldn’t have? On the par 5 13 th I pulled my second into the trees and chipped out to 125 yards away in 3. The pin was way over on a narrow promentory of green on the right side. I aimed at the pin, came up just 2 yards short in some thickish rough, and the second double bogey ensued.
ditto My question. Did I get too greedy going for par and bringing double into play? Should I have made sure I got on the green past the flag on 9, by aiming to the left away from the flag on 13, to try and take double out of the picture as Kenny would say. The game was stroke play. My skill level is that of a player for whom an 80 is not a source of anguish. More and more I feel like I am being pushed into a very conservative, avoid bad things style of play; the notion of me "attacking" the course has always been a foreign one. B. J. Wilkinson
Only you can answer that. Are you trying to make birdies, do a career round, or shot for the best average game you can? (handicap and what the pros do, I think, in a four day tournament for most of the time)
Response:
My question. Did I get too greedy going for par and bringing double into play? Should I have made sure I got on the green past the flag on 9, by aiming to the left away from the flag on 13, to try and take double out of the picture as Kenny would say. The game was stroke play.
This is a question only you can answer. It’s as simple as this: what method would give you the lowest average score, if you had to try the shot 10 times (or 100 times, or 1000 times)? You have to know your abilities — honestly, objectively — in order to reach the correct decision. If you have a lot of faith in your ability to get up and down with your 64* wedge and you know you can get that shot within two-putt distance no matter what, then that’s your club. But if you think you run a 1-in-5 chance of getting god-knows-what because of the lie, then you need to consider a more conservative approach. What are you *really* giving up when you play conservatively? If you think that the agressive play will give you a short putt 25% of the time, a lag putt 50% of the time, and a recovery shot from a bunker or heavy rough or a hazard or something 25% of the time, then you have to figure that the loss of strokes from the recovery shots is going to outweigh the times you make a short putt (which, no matter how good you are with that 64* wedge, isn’t a certainty). From 30 yards, if you have a way to get down in 3 strokes — sometimes two, sometimes four, but averaging 3.0 — then you need an overwhelmingly good reason to try for more, if it’s bringing a recovery shot into play. Crazy-agressive is just plain crazy (assuming you’re always trying to minimize your score, of course). It’s like playing the lottery — sometimes it pays off, but not enough over the long haul to make it worthwhile. But in the end, you have to base your decision upon your abilities. What you can pull off 90% of the time I might only be able to do 50% of the time, but a scratch golfer might be able to do 99% of the time. The key to course management, in my opinion, is first understanding what your own abilities actually are. Only then can you play the percentages correctly. Doug — ___, Doug Massey, ASIC Digital Logic Designer o IBM Microelectronics Division, Burlington, Vermont | | Phone: (802)769-7095 t/l: 446-7095 fax: x6752 | / | . My homepage: http://doug.obscurestuff.com (|)
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -[snip] On the par 4 9th I was 30 yards short of the green in 2. The pin was cut very tight to the edge of the green and I thought my only chance of getting it close was with my 64 degree wedge. However, I was concerned about the lie because the turf was wet and soft and I considered taking a lower lofted wedge with more bounce to avoid what did happen with the 64.Ii hit just behind the ball, cut completely beneath it and pulled it into the bunker. A double ensued. It seems like to me that a pin close to the front of the green automatically makes the hole a half a shot harder (What do yoo guys think?). And that going for the pin when it’s on the front is a common mistake, one I’ve made so many time it’s amazing that I really haven’t learned my lesson. You didn’t say why the double… Did you go fot the pin again from the trap when you shouldn’t have? On the par 5 13 th I pulled my second into the trees and chipped out to 125 yards away in 3. The pin was way over on a narrow promentory of green on the right side. I aimed at the pin, came up just 2 yards short in some thickish rough, and the second double bogey ensued. ditto My question. Did I get too greedy going for par and bringing double into play? Should I have made sure I got on the green past the flag on 9, by aiming to the left away from the flag on 13, to try and take double out of the picture as Kenny would say. The game was stroke play. My skill level is that of a player for whom an 80 is not a source of anguish. More and more I feel like I am being pushed into a very conservative, avoid bad things style of play; the notion of me "attacking" the course has always been a foreign one. B. J. Wilkinson Only you can answer that. Are you trying to make birdies, do a career round, or shot for the best average game you can? (handicap and what the pros do, I think, in a four day tournament for most of the time)
Longish par 4, didn’t reach in 2, in bunker in 3, 4 out, 2 putts = DOUBLE sigh. B. J. Wilkinson
Response:
BJ, I am by nature a very conservative player too. On Saturday I took a few chances that I normally wouldn’t take. I was playing Hidden Creek Country Club in Reston, VA. The sixth hole (http://www.hiddencreekcc.com/page/16-496-494-299.htm?hole=6&course_id=24) is one of the hardest par 4s around DC. It’s about 460 yards, tight and with a creek that cuts across the fairway about 195 yards from the green. The creek then turns and runs along the right side of the second part of the fairway all the way up to the green. I choked down on a driver and swung easy and ended up about 225 yards from the green on the right center of the fairway, the best side to attack the green. Now, the normal TimT would have hit an 9 iron and a wedge and been happy to get out with a bogey. But this time I pulled out the 3 wood, aimed at the left greenside bunker (left of the green is the only bailout area). Of course I cut it a little too much and it trickled along the right bunker down towards the cart path and creek leaving me a nasty little chip. I got it on the green, too far from the hole and 3 putted for double. On #9 (http://www.hiddencreekcc.com/page/16-496-494-299.htm?hole=9&course_id=24), I bombed a 3 wood off the tee to the top of the hill leaving about 250 to the green. Instead of my usual play of 8 iron then gap wedge, I pulled out the 3 wood, hit a horrible drop kick slice into the water short and right of the green and took an ugle triple. Two holes, both in perfect position off the tee, a total of 5 over par for those holes. Did I play too aggressively? I don’t think so. Both times I was in good position to take the chance but I simply didn’t pull off the shot. They weren’t terribly hard shots, I just missed them both to the only place where you shouldn’t miss them. Methinks I need some fairway wood practice. Tim T
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yesterday was one of those days that is good to be on the upside of the fairway. 67 degrees, sunshine, a zephyr of a breeze, and fall colors on the Pleasantville State University Golf Course. I shot a satisfying 80. I had two doubles. On the par 4 9th I was 30 yards short of the green in 2. The pin was cut very tight to the edge of the green and I thought my only chance of getting it close was with my 64 degree wedge. However, I was concerned about the lie because the turf was wet and soft and I considered taking a lower lofted wedge with more bounce to avoid what did happen with the 64.Ii hit just behind the ball, cut completely beneath it and pulled it into the bunker. A double ensued. On the par 5 13 th I pulled my second into the trees and chipped out to 125 yards away in 3. The pin was way over on a narrow promentory of green on the right side. I aimed at the pin, came up just 2 yards short in some thickish rough, and the second double bogey ensued. My question. Did I get too greedy going for par and bringing double into play? Should I have made sure I got on the green past the flag on 9, by aiming to the left away from the flag on 13, to try and take double out of the picture as Kenny would say. The game was stroke play. My skill level is that of a player for whom an 80 is not a source of anguish. More and more I feel like I am being pushed into a very conservative, avoid bad things style of play; the notion of me "attacking" the course has always been a foreign one. B. J. Wilkinson
Response:
The key to course management, in my opinion, is first understanding what your own abilities actually are. Only then can you play the percentages correctly.
Well said. If that 64-degree wedge shot will only get you close enough for a 1-putt 20% of the time but might make you chunk it and make double-bogey 40% of the time then it doesn’t seem too wose a gamble. Why not play the safe shot and take the chances with your putter? As Venturi always liked to say on #13 at Augusta, "He’s bringing a whole nother number into play here, Jimmy." I miss that old fart.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(BJ Wilkinson) Yesterday was one of those days that is good to be on the upside of the fairway. 67 degrees, sunshine, a zephyr of a breeze, and fall colors on the Pleasantville State University Golf Course. I shot a satisfying 80. I had two doubles. On the par 4 9th I was 30 yards short of the green in 2. The pin was cut very tight to the edge of the green and I thought my only chance of getting it close was with my 64 degree wedge. However, I was concerned about the lie because the turf was wet and soft and I considered taking a lower lofted wedge with more bounce to avoid what did happen with the 64.Ii hit just behind the ball, cut completely beneath it and pulled it into the bunker. A double ensued. On the par 5 13 th I pulled my second into the trees and chipped out to 125 yards away in 3. The pin was way over on a narrow promentory of green on the right side. I aimed at the pin, came up just 2 yards short in some thickish rough, and the second double bogey ensued. My question. Did I get too greedy going for par and bringing double into play? Should I have made sure I got on the green past the flag on 9, by aiming to the left away from the flag on 13, to try and take double out of the picture as Kenny would say. The game was stroke play. My skill level is that of a player for whom an 80 is not a source of anguish. More and more I feel like I am being pushed into a very conservative, avoid bad things style of play; the notion of me "attacking" the course has always been a foreign one. B. J. Wilkinson
I used to be very conservative…… I just wanted to "keep up" and not look bad out on the course….. This lasted awhile and after seeing very little progress, I decided it was time to go for it…… I play basketball and am very aggressive on the court…… so it wasn’t much of a problem to translate that out onto the golf course…… Did it hurt me some??? You bet…. at times it cost me dearly, with some wickedly bad holes and rounds….. but I stuck to it…… I always go for it, no matter the shot or situation, win or lose…… when you start having a few payoff good holes/rounds, it starts to be incorporated into you mind and game… you gain muscle and mental memories of good shooting…… you reinforce good swing habits and come to expect to make every shot…… this especially pays off after a bad shot…… in the old days, I’d follow a bad shot with several "game face saving" conservative shots……. now I get focused/pissed and expect to get myself out of those Viker 44
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The key to course management, in my opinion, is first understanding what your own abilities actually are. Only then can you play the percentages correctly. Well said. If that 64-degree wedge shot will only get you close enough for a 1-putt 20% of the time but might make you chunk it and make double-bogey 40% of the time then it doesn’t seem too wose a gamble. Why not play the safe shot and take the chances with your putter? As Venturi always liked to say on #13 at Augusta, "He’s bringing a whole nother number into play here, Jimmy." I miss that old fart.
Off the right lie the 64 degree wedge is no problem to play – rough around the green, fairway of normal firmness. The lie was wet and soft, I knew it was questionable but was trying too hard for a par. I too miss Kenny. Lanny just seems like he is not a very nice person. B. J. Wilkinson
Response:
Off the right lie the 64 degree wedge is no problem to play – rough around the green, fairway of normal firmness. The lie was wet and soft, I knew it was questionable but was trying too hard for a par.
Half the fun of golf is trying to hit that tough shot that if properly executed might get the ball close to the hole. "Damn the percentages!" When your score is important to you, it pays to play the percentages, however.
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I think this is great to balance the standard course management startegy of hitting the high percentage shot with occasionally "going for it". Read an article in Golf Digest (yeah, I know that’s dangereous 8^) ) which talked about how mid and high handicappers should often try for the great shot (assuming it’s not total fantasy) … because if you make it that’s what you’ll remember for a long time. Maybe not in a tournament, but for your basic, casual round. Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Half the fun of golf is trying to hit that tough shot that if properly executed might get the ball close to the hole. "Damn the percentages!" When your score is important to you, it pays to play the percentages, however.
Response:
Harvey Penick used to say that a player who has above average skill (and I’d say you’re one of those if, as you say, "a score of 80 is not a source of anguish," and assuming you shoot that score occasionally) that any time the ball is within approximately 125 yards, he should take dead aim at the flag. Personally (not that I would consider myself more of an authority than Mr. Penick), I look at it a little differently: I’d say that it depends on what club you’ve got in your hand. You might be only 100 yards from the hole, but because of the situation (under low-hanging branches, for instance), you might have to hit a 5-iron. In that case, you can’t very well "take dead aim." You’re perfectly satisfied to just get the ball somewhere on or near the green. But assuming a clear shot with a decent lie in the fairway (not an awkward stance, uphill/downhill lie, ball in a divot, etc.), and assuming you’ve got… oh, I’d say about a 9 iron or less, I think it’s quite achievable for a player possessing an "82 shooter" skill level to go ahead and fire at the flag. That said, there are still variables. If the ball is cut four paces from the edge of the green where there’s a drop-off to water, I’d still tend to err on the side of caution and take my chances with a 15-footer from the other side, if I had my drothers. Randy
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yesterday was one of those days that is good to be on the upside of the fairway. 67 degrees, sunshine, a zephyr of a breeze, and fall colors on the Pleasantville State University Golf Course. I shot a satisfying 80. I had two doubles. On the par 4 9th I was 30 yards short of the green in 2. The pin was cut very tight to the edge of the green and I thought my only chance of getting it close was with my 64 degree wedge. However, I was concerned about the lie because the turf was wet and soft and I considered taking a lower lofted wedge with more bounce to avoid what did happen with the 64.Ii hit just behind the ball, cut completely beneath it and pulled it into the bunker. A double ensued. On the par 5 13 th I pulled my second into the trees and chipped out to 125 yards away in 3. The pin was way over on a narrow promentory of green on the right side. I aimed at the pin, came up just 2 yards short in some thickish rough, and the second double bogey ensued. My question. Did I get too greedy going for par and bringing double into play? Should I have made sure I got on the green past the flag on 9, by aiming to the left away from the flag on 13, to try and take double out of the picture as Kenny would say. The game was stroke play. My skill level is that of a player for whom an 80 is not a source of anguish. More and more I feel like I am being pushed into a very conservative, avoid bad things style of play; the notion of me "attacking" the course has always been a foreign one. B. J. Wilkinson
Response:
Off the right lie the 64 degree wedge is no problem to play – rough around the green, fairway of normal firmness. The lie was wet and soft, I knew it was questionable but was trying too hard for a par. Half the fun of golf is trying to hit that tough shot that if properly executed might get the ball close to the hole. "Damn the percentages!" When your score is important to you, it pays to play the percentages,
however. Boy, is that ever a valid point. I’d say when I’m playing a round where I’m just out to get some fresh air and do ANYTHING to avoid staying home watching Oprah, I might try any shot, just because I think I might be able to pull it off, knowing full well that it’s a low percentage play. But if I’ve got a good round going and would want to preserve, to the best of my ability, whatever "trophy score" I might shoot, I’ll think twice about trying something I know I’ll pull off less than half the time *IF* failure to execute it properly brings a nasty number into play. That said, some of my most memorable shots are ones that might seem to have been risky, but I managed somehow to pull them off. Decisions, decisions. Randy
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When your score is important to you, it pays to play the percentages, however. Boy, is that ever a valid point.
I have my moments.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Harvey Penick used to say that a player who has above average skill (and I’d say you’re one of those if, as you say, "a score of 80 is not a source of anguish," and assuming you shoot that score occasionally) that any time the ball is within approximately 125 yards, he should take dead aim at the flag. Personally (not that I would consider myself more of an authority than Mr. Penick), I look at it a little differently: I’d say that it depends on what club you’ve got in your hand. You might be only 100 yards from the hole, but because of the situation (under low-hanging branches, for instance), you might have to hit a 5-iron. In that case, you can’t very well "take dead aim." You’re perfectly satisfied to just get the ball somewhere on or near the green. But assuming a clear shot with a decent lie in the fairway (not an awkward stance, uphill/downhill lie, ball in a divot, etc.), and assuming you’ve got… oh, I’d say about a 9 iron or less, I think it’s quite achievable for a player possessing an "82 shooter" skill level to go ahead and fire at the flag. That said, there are still variables. If the ball is cut four paces from the edge of the green where there’s a drop-off to water, I’d still tend to err on the side of caution and take my chances with a 15-footer from the other side, if I had my drothers. Randy
I am new here. Wat do you mean "ball is cut four paces" ? (A ‘cut’ shot), and "drothers" ?? Chas
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: Harvey Penick used to say that a player who has above average skill (and I’d : say you’re one of those if, as you say, "a score of 80 is not a source of : anguish," and assuming you shoot that score occasionally) that any time the : ball is within approximately 125 yards, he should take dead aim at the flag. : : Personally (not that I would consider myself more of an authority than Mr. : Penick), I look at it a little differently: I’d say that it depends on what : club you’ve got in your hand. : : You might be only 100 yards from the hole, but because of the situation : (under low-hanging branches, for instance), you might have to hit a 5-iron. : In that case, you can’t very well "take dead aim." You’re perfectly : satisfied to just get the ball somewhere on or near the green. : : But assuming a clear shot with a decent lie in the fairway (not an awkward : stance, uphill/downhill lie, ball in a divot, etc.), and assuming you’ve : got… oh, I’d say about a 9 iron or less, I think it’s quite achievable for : a player possessing an "82 shooter" skill level to go ahead and fire at the : flag. : : That said, there are still variables. If the ball is cut four paces from : the edge of the green where there’s a drop-off to water, I’d still tend to : err on the side of caution and take my chances with a 15-footer from the : other side, if I had my drothers. : : Randy : I am new here. : Wat do you mean "ball is cut four paces" ? (A ‘cut’ shot), and "drothers" ?? : Chas I think Randy meant "hole is cut four paces" not ball. "If I had my drothers" is an old saying. "Drothers" is sort of short for "I’d rather", meaning that if he could choose where the ball ended up he’d rather (had my drothers) have it on the dry side of the pin with a 15 foot putt than in the water. Hope that helps. Marshall Ward
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Harvey Penick used to say that a player who has above average skill (and I’d say you’re one of those if, as you say, "a score of 80 is not a source of anguish," and assuming you shoot that score occasionally) that any time the ball is within approximately 125 yards, he should take dead aim at the flag. Personally (not that I would consider myself more of an authority than Mr. Penick), I look at it a little differently: I’d say that it depends on what club you’ve got in your hand. You might be only 100 yards from the hole, but because of the situation (under low-hanging branches, for instance), you might have to hit a 5-iron. In that case, you can’t very well "take dead aim." You’re perfectly satisfied to just get the ball somewhere on or near the green. But assuming a clear shot with a decent lie in the fairway (not an awkward stance, uphill/downhill lie, ball in a divot, etc.), and assuming you’ve got… oh, I’d say about a 9 iron or less, I think it’s quite achievable for a player possessing an "82 shooter" skill level to go ahead and fire at the flag. That said, there are still variables. If the ball is cut four paces from the edge of the green where there’s a drop-off to water, I’d still tend to err on the side of caution and take my chances with a 15-footer from the other side, if I had my drothers. Randy I am new here. Wat do you mean "ball is cut four paces" ? (A ‘cut’ shot), and "drothers"
?? 1. If I typed "the ball is cut four paces" (and I may have done so, I haven’t gone back to read it again to check), then it was a type-o. I would have meant to say, "the HOLE is cut four paces…[from the edge]", meaning, as I’m sure your’re able to surmise, that the hole location is four paces (steps, yards) from the edge of the green. Sometimes my fingers don’t type as fast as my mind wanders. Sorry. 2. "If I had my drothers" is a midwestern expression, I suppose. "Drothers" is a shortened version of "I’d rather…". So if I say "If I had my drothers," what I’m really saying is "I’d rather thus and such would happen." Or to use it in another context, "If I had my drothers, I wouldn’t have to work every day and someone would just drop ten million dollars in cash on my doorstep." Randy
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I think Randy meant "hole is cut four paces" not ball. "If I had my drothers" is an old saying. "Drothers" is sort of short for "I’d rather", meaning that if he could choose where the ball ended up he’d rather (had my drothers) have it on the dry side of the pin with a 15 foot putt than in the water.
I had always pronounced and read that as "druthers". http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=druthers
Response:
Bob Rotella gives his clients advice that differs slightly from Mr. Penick’s. He says that every golfer should have some distance at which putting the ball in the hole is the only goal. Inside that distance, there’s no such thing as a "sucker pin". So Tiger’s "Take Dead Aim" distance might be 150 yards and a scratch amateur’s might be 125 yards. For me, it’s somewhere around 60 yards. If I’m hitting some kind of full wedge, say 100 yards, then skulling over the green or coming up well short or pulling it well to the right are likely enough that they bring trouble into the equation. But I practice 40-yard half-swing wedge shots all the time. So anywhere in that 30, 40, 50 yard range there’s no reason the ball can’t go in the hole every time. Brent Hutto
Response:
Bob Rotella gives his clients advice that differs slightly from Mr. Penick’s. He says that every golfer should have some distance at which putting the ball in the hole is the only goal. Inside that distance, there’s no such thing as a "sucker pin". So Tiger’s "Take Dead Aim" distance might be 150 yards and a scratch amateur’s might be 125 yards.
That distance wouldn’t vary depending on the pin placement, green, and/or obstacles?
Response:
Bob Rotella gives his clients advice that differs slightly from Mr. Penick’s. He says that every golfer should have some distance at which putting the ball in the hole is the only goal. Inside that distance, there’s no such thing as a "sucker pin". So Tiger’s "Take Dead Aim" distance might be 150 yards and a scratch amateur’s might be 125 yards. That distance wouldn’t vary depending on the pin placement, green, and/or obstacles?
Hell, I think there are sucker pins for _putts_ even — if you have a putt that’s uphill but falls way off past the hole, or a ridge that runs just down one side that falls way off it is usually smart to play three feet short or to the other side and take the high odds two putt rather than risk a nearly sure three putt or even four putt by trying to make the thing! I think Rotella is being pretty stupid claiming that because there are some places where being aggressive pays off more than others. If you have two equivalent shots, with one where an aggressive shot played well is likely to result in leaving you a slick sidehill putt that’s going to be hard to make, versus another where you’d be left with a nice straight in uphill putt, you don’t gain much by playing aggressively at the slick pin, because you’d probably two putt anyway. You might as well just play safe and take the sure par, rather than bring bogey or worse into play trying for the small chance at birdie. On the level pin, it makes much more sense to go at it. But I wouldn’t have a "go at it" distance. On some days I might feel good going at it with a 3 iron from 225. On other days I might cheat to the safe side with a sand wedge. Only a fool would assume his "go for it" distance is the same every day. — A good friend will help you move, a true friend will help you move a body.