Question:
Geez. Everything’s not dead flat and people go ballistic. I’m *sure* I said in the course description that people should keep the ball below the hole. :) Mike —
I live in a desert. I’ve never seen a hill.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All courses are easy for scratch golfers and hard for bogey golfers. This course then is Very Easy for scratch golfer and Very Hard for bogey golfers? I think that may be a stretch. You’ve no doubt heard about how hard people thought my home course in Platteville is. The darned thing is only 6066 from the BLUES, for gosh sakes. Rating? 68.9. Slope? 123. Easy, right? Except, there have been scratch players who couldn’t break 80 on this course. A friend here invited two such players to play here. They won’t come back. I was talking to someone about this issue yesterday. We don’t have what I’d consider to be our share of REALLY low handicappers, the guys who are maybe 1-3. Very, very few. Most of the better players are in the 4-6 range. The guy who won our club championship this weekend is a 5. He beat a guy who is about the same. Do we have bad players, or is the course more challenging than the numbers would suggest? We do well in team events against other clubs who have players whose handicaps are lower than ours. So I don’t know as the "easy for scratch, hard for bogey" thing is always true. In many respects, our course isn’t that hard due to length, but it’s got its own set of challenges. Mike — Just another example of a course that has wrong ratings. Probably a very difficult course. ( part of my frustration is having a course rating for scratch golfers–Course Rating; and another set of numbers for Bogey golfers, slope. I’m not either one.) I’ll take it a step further, I hate handicaps. Naw forget it….I’ll get flamed by the Country Club folks. IMO, neither course rating nor slope accounts for what really makes Mike’s home course play tougher than it looks. Unreadable greens. :-) Well not unreadable, but very difficult to read. They are smooth and slick and there are a lot of subtle breaks that most of us found hard to figure out. Kenny Well, that and the 45* pitch of every green. gary hayenga
Geez. Everything’s not dead flat and people go ballistic. I’m *sure* I said in the course description that people should keep the ball below the hole. :) Mike — Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All courses are easy for scratch golfers and hard for bogey golfers. This course then is Very Easy for scratch golfer and Very Hard for bogey golfers? I think that may be a stretch. You’ve no doubt heard about how hard people thought my home course in Platteville is. The darned thing is only 6066 from the BLUES, for gosh sakes. Rating? 68.9. Slope? 123. Easy, right? Except, there have been scratch players who couldn’t break 80 on this course. A friend here invited two such players to play here. They won’t come back. I was talking to someone about this issue yesterday. We don’t have what I’d consider to be our share of REALLY low handicappers, the guys who are maybe 1-3. Very, very few. Most of the better players are in the 4-6 range. The guy who won our club championship this weekend is a 5. He beat a guy who is about the same. Do we have bad players, or is the course more challenging than the numbers would suggest? We do well in team events against other clubs who have players whose handicaps are lower than ours. So I don’t know as the "easy for scratch, hard for bogey" thing is always true. In many respects, our course isn’t that hard due to length, but it’s got its own set of challenges. Mike — Just another example of a course that has wrong ratings. Probably a very difficult course. ( part of my frustration is having a course rating for scratch golfers–Course Rating; and another set of numbers for Bogey golfers, slope. I’m not either one.) I’ll take it a step further, I hate handicaps. Naw forget it….I’ll get flamed by the Country Club folks. IMO, neither course rating nor slope accounts for what really makes Mike’s home course play tougher than it looks. Unreadable greens. :-) Well not unreadable, but very difficult to read. They are smooth and slick and there are a lot of subtle breaks that most of us found hard to figure out. Kenny
Well, that and the 45* pitch of every green. gary hayenga
Response:
You don’t seem to understand slope correctly. Rating relates to only one type of golfer – scratch. That was the whole problem with the rating, and the reason slope was invented. Slope is *based* on the bogey golfer, but unlike the rating, it *relates* to all golfers (at least all golfers above scratch, and theoretically below too, but…) A slope is exactly what it sounds like in a math context.
Except that the assumption that the slope is a straight line is just that, an assumption. Real measurements could find that it should be a curve, and that curve should vary from course to course. But in real life there are lots of variables. One course may favor a slicing 20 handicap player, another may favor a long hitting 20 handicap player, a third course may be perfect for the short hitting 20 handicap player, a fifth course may be ideal for the great putting 20 handicap player…
Response:
OK, I suppose the slope would be easier to use then. However, why not just call a "standard" difficulty course a 1.0 when you expect a non-scratch golfer to score his handicap above the course rating, rather than the handicap*slope/113 business? – Robert – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any idea of why the USGA doesn’t just skip the slope/factor weirdness and just use a bogey rating to rate a course’s difficulty? That can be useful information when evaluating which tees you should play. But if you play handicap golf, with net scores – you want a system to measure how much more difficult a course is for poorer golfers than for better golfers.
Response:
( part of my frustration is having a course rating for scratch golfers–Course Rating; and another set of numbers for Bogey golfers, slope. I’m not either one.) I’ll take it a step further, I hate handicaps. Naw forget it….I’ll get flamed by the Country Club folks.
I suppose someday in the future, they will have handicap systems that take more than these two measuring points. I’m not into net scores. But I AM into setting goals for myself. I can determine my course handicap for various courses and tees and use these to see how good I am playing. I can play match play against my handicap.
Response:
Any idea of why the USGA doesn’t just skip the slope/factor weirdness and just use a bogey rating to rate a course’s difficulty?
That can be useful information when evaluating which tees you should play. But if you play handicap golf, with net scores – you want a system to measure how much more difficult a course is for poorer golfers than for better golfers.
Response:
Rick – But the standard slope is 113, so the "correct" factor should be more like 113/18 or about 6.28, shouldn’t it? – Robert – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Course Rating: the USGA’s mark that indicates the evaluation of the playing difficulty of a course for scratch golfers. It is based on yardage and other obstacles to the extent that they affect the scoring difficulty of the scratch golfer. Example: 68.5 Bogey Rating: the one number every golfer worse than a scratch should check before deciding which tees to play. This rating is the evaluation of the playing difficulty of a course for the bogey golfer. It is based on yardage, effective playing length and other obstacles to the extent that affect the scoring ability of the bogey golfer. To figure out this number, other than from looking at this database, the bogey golfer should take the Slope Rating, divide it by the set factor (5.381 for men, and 4.24 for women) and add that to the Course Rating. The result is a target score for the bogey player, and is a truer yardstick of the challenge that lies ahead for the particular set of tees. Example: 96.3 -( which predicts the bogey golfer’s average of his ten best (out of twenty) scores would be approximately 96.3 from this particular set of tees). Slope Rating: the USGA’s mark that indicates the measurement of the relative difficulty for the Bogey Golfer compared to the Course Rating. Slope Rating is computed from the difference between the Bogey Rating and the Course Rating. The lowest Slope Rating is 55 and the highest is 155. Example: 125
Response:
Any idea of why the USGA doesn’t just skip the slope/factor weirdness and just use a bogey rating to rate a course’s difficulty? – Robert – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Course Rating: the USGA’s mark that indicates the evaluation of the playing difficulty of a course for scratch golfers. It is based on yardage and other obstacles to the extent that they affect the scoring difficulty of the scratch golfer. Example: 68.5 Bogey Rating: the one number every golfer worse than a scratch should check before deciding which tees to play. This rating is the evaluation of the playing difficulty of a course for the bogey golfer. It is based on yardage, effective playing length and other obstacles to the extent that affect the scoring ability of the bogey golfer. To figure out this number, other than from looking at this database, the bogey golfer should take the Slope Rating, divide it by the set factor (5.381 for men, and 4.24 for women) and add that to the Course Rating. The result is a target score for the bogey player, and is a truer yardstick of the challenge that lies ahead for the particular set of tees. Example: 96.3 -( which predicts the bogey golfer’s average of his ten best (out of twenty) scores would be approximately 96.3 from this particular set of tees). Slope Rating: the USGA’s mark that indicates the measurement of the relative difficulty for the Bogey Golfer compared to the Course Rating. Slope Rating is computed from the difference between the Bogey Rating and the Course Rating. The lowest Slope Rating is 55 and the highest is 155. Example: 125
Response:
All courses are easy for scratch golfers and hard for bogey golfers. This course then is Very Easy for scratch golfer and Very Hard for bogey golfers? I think that may be a stretch. You’ve no doubt heard about how hard people thought my home course in Platteville is. The darned thing is only 6066 from the BLUES, for gosh sakes. Rating? 68.9. Slope? 123. Easy, right? Except, there have been scratch players who couldn’t break 80 on this course. A friend here invited two such players to play here. They won’t come back. Mike
I am sure your friend took their money, that course is a perfect course to establish a handicap! Good for members but pretty rude to guests. I’d say. Puttster
Response:
Just another example of a course that has wrong ratings. Probably a very difficult course. ( part of my frustration is having a course rating for scratch golfers–Course Rating; and another set of numbers for Bogey golfers, slope. I’m not either one.)
You don’t seem to understand slope correctly. Rating relates to only one type of golfer – scratch. That was the whole problem with the rating, and the reason slope was invented. Slope is *based* on the bogey golfer, but unlike the rating, it *relates* to all golfers (at least all golfers above scratch, and theoretically below too, but…) A slope is exactly what it sounds like in a math context. Remember your high school math? A rating is a point. A slope is an entire line, and any golfer can find themselves on that line. The line was created from 2 points – scratch golfer and bogey golf, and as you recall any 2 points form a line 
But the point is, the rating is a point (1 value), and the slope is a line (infinite values).
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All courses are easy for scratch golfers and hard for bogey golfers. This course then is Very Easy for scratch golfer and Very Hard for bogey golfers? I think that may be a stretch. You’ve no doubt heard about how hard people thought my home course in Platteville is. The darned thing is only 6066 from the BLUES, for gosh sakes. Rating? 68.9. Slope? 123. Easy, right? Except, there have been scratch players who couldn’t break 80 on this course. A friend here invited two such players to play here. They won’t come back. I was talking to someone about this issue yesterday. We don’t have what I’d consider to be our share of REALLY low handicappers, the guys who are maybe 1-3. Very, very few. Most of the better players are in the 4-6 range. The guy who won our club championship this weekend is a 5. He beat a guy who is about the same. Do we have bad players, or is the course more challenging than the numbers would suggest? We do well in team events against other clubs who have players whose handicaps are lower than ours. So I don’t know as the "easy for scratch, hard for bogey" thing is always true. In many respects, our course isn’t that hard due to length, but it’s got its own set of challenges. Mike — Just another example of a course that has wrong ratings. Probably a very difficult course. ( part of my frustration is having a course rating for scratch golfers–Course Rating; and another set of numbers for Bogey golfers, slope. I’m not either one.) I’ll take it a step further, I hate handicaps. Naw forget it….I’ll get flamed by the Country Club folks.
IMO, neither course rating nor slope accounts for what really makes Mike’s home course play tougher than it looks. Unreadable greens. :-) Well not unreadable, but very difficult to read. They are smooth and slick and there are a lot of subtle breaks that most of us found hard to figure out. Kenny — Kenny Stultz – Troll and SPAM intolerant RSG Rollcall: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=stultzk "Golf is the only sport where a precise knowledge of the Rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship"
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All courses are easy for scratch golfers and hard for bogey golfers. This course then is Very Easy for scratch golfer and Very Hard for bogey golfers? I think that may be a stretch. You’ve no doubt heard about how hard people thought my home course in Platteville is. The darned thing is only 6066 from the BLUES, for gosh sakes. Rating? 68.9. Slope? 123. Easy, right? Except, there have been scratch players who couldn’t break 80 on this course. A friend here invited two such players to play here. They won’t come back. I was talking to someone about this issue yesterday. We don’t have what I’d consider to be our share of REALLY low handicappers, the guys who are maybe 1-3. Very, very few. Most of the better players are in the 4-6 range. The guy who won our club championship this weekend is a 5. He beat a guy who is about the same. Do we have bad players, or is the course more challenging than the numbers would suggest? We do well in team events against other clubs who have players whose handicaps are lower than ours. So I don’t know as the "easy for scratch, hard for bogey" thing is always true. In many respects, our course isn’t that hard due to length, but it’s got its own set of challenges. Mike —
Just another example of a course that has wrong ratings. Probably a very difficult course. ( part of my frustration is having a course rating for scratch golfers–Course Rating; and another set of numbers for Bogey golfers, slope. I’m not either one.) I’ll take it a step further, I hate handicaps. Naw forget it….I’ll get flamed by the Country Club folks.
Response:
All courses are easy for scratch golfers and hard for bogey golfers. This course then is Very Easy for scratch golfer and Very Hard for bogey golfers?
I think that may be a stretch. You’ve no doubt heard about how hard people thought my home course in Platteville is. The darned thing is only 6066 from the BLUES, for gosh sakes. Rating? 68.9. Slope? 123. Easy, right? Except, there have been scratch players who couldn’t break 80 on this course. A friend here invited two such players to play here. They won’t come back. I was talking to someone about this issue yesterday. We don’t have what I’d consider to be our share of REALLY low handicappers, the guys who are maybe 1-3. Very, very few. Most of the better players are in the 4-6 range. The guy who won our club championship this weekend is a 5. He beat a guy who is about the same. Do we have bad players, or is the course more challenging than the numbers would suggest? We do well in team events against other clubs who have players whose handicaps are lower than ours. So I don’t know as the "easy for scratch, hard for bogey" thing is always true. In many respects, our course isn’t that hard due to length, but it’s got its own set of challenges. Mike — Mike Dalecki GCA Accredited Clubmaker http://clubdoctor.com RSG-Wisconsin 2003 Information: http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2003 RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=daleckim I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean!
Response:
All courses are easy for scratch golfers and hard for bogey golfers.
But that’s not true. Ask the pros who just played Oak Hill. It has a rating of 76, and that’s not set up for a PGA major tournament, just regular member play. (Having said that, the head pro said they had the greens at 14 on the stimp for a recent member/guest, "just to see if they could do it". Yes, that is faster than the PGA Championship.)
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The course I’ve been playing at this year, from the ‘member tees’, has the following. Yardage…..6250 Course Rating…..68.7 Back tees are 6850, par 71, course rating 71, slope 140. It seems to me that the course rating is too low for a slope of 130. Or, that the slope is too high for a course rating of 68.7. But if they did what you seem to suggest, then there would be no reason to have a slope at all. The whole point of a slope is to distinguish what a bogey golfer is going to do relative to what a scratch golfer is going to do. It’s perfectly normal to have numbers like that, since the 2 types of golfers have different types of problems or challenges on a golf course. The rating is mostly related to length, and scratch golfers don’t have much trouble with length, while bogey golfers usually do. On the other hand, if the course is short, the rating will be low, but there can still be other problems, such as forced carries, that will pose no problem at all to scratch golfers, while eating many golf balls of the bogey players. In other words the course is short but difficult? I think it means its easy for good players and hard for bad players.
Think I’ll host RSG SCottsdale here and see what shakes out.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The course I’ve been playing at this year, from the ‘member tees’, has the following. Yardage…..6250 Course Rating…..68.7 Back tees are 6850, par 71, course rating 71, slope 140. It seems to me that the course rating is too low for a slope of 130. Or, that the slope is too high for a course rating of 68.7. But if they did what you seem to suggest, then there would be no reason to have a slope at all. The whole point of a slope is to distinguish what a bogey golfer is going to do relative to what a scratch golfer is going to do. It’s perfectly normal to have numbers like that, since the 2 types of golfers have different types of problems or challenges on a golf course. The rating is mostly related to length, and scratch golfers don’t have much trouble with length, while bogey golfers usually do. On the other hand, if the course is short, the rating will be low, but there can still be other problems, such as forced carries, that will pose no problem at all to scratch golfers, while eating many golf balls of the bogey players. In other words the course is short but difficult?
I think it means its easy for good players and hard for bad players.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The course I’ve been playing at this year, from the ‘member tees’, has the following. Yardage…..6250 Course Rating…..68.7 Back tees are 6850, par 71, course rating 71, slope 140. It seems to me that the course rating is too low for a slope of 130. Or, that the slope is too high for a course rating of 68.7. But if they did what you seem to suggest, then there would be no reason to have a slope at all. The whole point of a slope is to distinguish what a bogey golfer is going to do relative to what a scratch golfer is going to do. It’s perfectly normal to have numbers like that, since the 2 types of golfers have different types of problems or challenges on a golf course. The rating is mostly related to length, and scratch golfers don’t have much trouble with length, while bogey golfers usually do. On the other hand, if the course is short, the rating will be low, but there can still be other problems, such as forced carries, that will pose no problem at all to scratch golfers, while eating many golf balls of the bogey players.
All courses are easy for scratch golfers and hard for bogey golfers. This course then is Very Easy for scratch golfer and Very Hard for bogey golfers?
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The course I’ve been playing at this year, from the ‘member tees’, has the following. Yardage…..6250 Course Rating…..68.7 Back tees are 6850, par 71, course rating 71, slope 140. It seems to me that the course rating is too low for a slope of 130. Or, that the slope is too high for a course rating of 68.7. But if they did what you seem to suggest, then there would be no reason to have a slope at all. The whole point of a slope is to distinguish what a bogey golfer is going to do relative to what a scratch golfer is going to do. It’s perfectly normal to have numbers like that, since the 2 types of golfers have different types of problems or challenges on a golf course. The rating is mostly related to length, and scratch golfers don’t have much trouble with length, while bogey golfers usually do. On the other hand, if the course is short, the rating will be low, but there can still be other problems, such as forced carries, that will pose no problem at all to scratch golfers, while eating many golf balls of the bogey players.
In other words the course is short but difficult?
Response:
The course I’ve been playing at this year, from the ‘member tees’, has the following. Yardage…..6250 Course Rating…..68.7 Back tees are 6850, par 71, course rating 71, slope 140. It seems to me that the course rating is too low for a slope of 130. Or, that the slope is too high for a course rating of 68.7.
But if they did what you seem to suggest, then there would be no reason to have a slope at all. The whole point of a slope is to distinguish what a bogey golfer is going to do relative to what a scratch golfer is going to do. It’s perfectly normal to have numbers like that, since the 2 types of golfers have different types of problems or challenges on a golf course. The rating is mostly related to length, and scratch golfers don’t have much trouble with length, while bogey golfers usually do. On the other hand, if the course is short, the rating will be low, but there can still be other problems, such as forced carries, that will pose no problem at all to scratch golfers, while eating many golf balls of the bogey players.
Response:
Course Rating: the USGA’s mark that indicates the evaluation of the playing difficulty of a course for scratch golfers. It is based on yardage and other obstacles to the extent that they affect the scoring difficulty of the scratch golfer. Example: 68.5 Bogey Rating: the one number every golfer worse than a scratch should check before deciding which tees to play. This rating is the evaluation of the playing difficulty of a course for the bogey golfer. It is based on yardage, effective playing length and other obstacles to the extent that affect the scoring ability of the bogey golfer. To figure out this number, other than from looking at this database, the bogey golfer should take the Slope Rating, divide it by the set factor (5.381 for men, and 4.24 for women) and add that to the Course Rating. The result is a target score for the bogey player, and is a truer yardstick of the challenge that lies ahead for the particular set of tees. Example: 96.3 -( which predicts the bogey golfer’s average of his ten best (out of twenty) scores would be approximately 96.3 from this particular set of tees). Slope Rating: the USGA’s mark that indicates the measurement of the relative difficulty for the Bogey Golfer compared to the Course Rating. Slope Rating is computed from the difference between the Bogey Rating and the Course Rating. The lowest Slope Rating is 55 and the highest is 155. Example: 125 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The course I’ve been playing at this year, from the ‘member tees’, has the following. Yardage…..6250 Course Rating…..68.7 Back tees are 6850, par 71, course rating 71, slope 140. It seems to me that the course rating is too low for a slope of 130. Or, that the slope is too high for a course rating of 68.7. It is a desert course. Real desert, not the fake sand and waste areas some courses throw out there in AZ to look like desert. If you miss the fairway, you’re in with boulders, and surely have no play. Desert on South of course plays as hazzard. You are not allowed in there to even look for balls as it is an Audobon Society Natural Habitat. The remain desert can be played from, but lies are usually impossible.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The course I’ve been playing at this year, from the ‘member tees’, has the following. Yardage…..6250 Course Rating…..68.7 Back tees are 6850, par 71, course rating 71, slope 140. It seems to me that the course rating is too low for a slope of 130. Or, that the slope is too high for a course rating of 68.7. It is a desert course. Real desert, not the fake sand and waste areas some courses throw out there in AZ to look like desert. If you miss the fairway, you’re in with boulders, and surely have no play. Desert on South of course plays as hazzard. You are not allowed in there to even look for balls as it is an Audobon Society Natural Habitat. The remain desert can be played from, but lies are usually impossible.
Based on your description of the course, 68.7 sounds entirely too low. And the slope may be too low also. Heck, my course is a 125 slope from the Blues at about 6250 yards , with plenty of water and sand, but nothing like the hazards you describe. I have played desert golf many times and know how penal they can be. These courses out here are a cakewalk compared to some of them. Eric "the Hammer"
Response:
It seems to me that the course rating is too low for a slope of 130. Or, that the slope is too high for a course rating of 68.7.
No, they are different measures completely. The reason a course may have a low course rating but a high slope rating is this: scratch golfers keep the ball out of trouble and can make a good score(this is related to the course rating). Bogey players spray the ball all over the place and when a course has a lot of trouble(water, sand, boulders, elevation) the bogey player’s score goes way way up. The slope rating is related to the difference in scoring between a scratch player and a bogey player. So if a course
Response:
My understanding is that the old course rating is based solely on distance. The slope rating tries to take into account distance and other factors that make the course more or less difficult, such as hazards, severity of greens, narrowness of fairways, etc.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The course I’ve been playing at this year, from the ‘member tees’, has the following. Yardage…..6250 Course Rating…..68.7 Back tees are 6850, par 71, course rating 71, slope 140. It seems to me that the course rating is too low for a slope of 130. Or, that the slope is too high for a course rating of 68.7. It is a desert course. Real desert, not the fake sand and waste areas some courses throw out there in AZ to look like desert. If you miss the fairway, you’re in with boulders, and surely have no play. Desert on South of course plays as hazzard. You are not allowed in there to even look for balls as it is an Audobon Society Natural Habitat. The remain desert can be played from, but lies are usually impossible.
Response:
The course I’ve been playing at this year, from the ‘member tees’, has the following. Yardage…..6250 Course Rating…..68.7 Back tees are 6850, par 71, course rating 71, slope 140. It seems to me that the course rating is too low for a slope of 130. Or, that the slope is too high for a course rating of 68.7. It is a desert course. Real desert, not the fake sand and waste areas some courses throw out there in AZ to look like desert. If you miss the fairway, you’re in with boulders, and surely have no play. Desert on South of course plays as hazzard. You are not allowed in there to even look for balls as it is an Audobon Society Natural Habitat. The remain desert can be played from, but lies are usually impossible.