Question:
I play the University of Michigan golf course which is an Alister MacKenzie design and I agree with Dan, MacKenzie is the best architect there was. His use of bunkers and just the imense size of them are incredible. The university reminds me a lot of Augusta National in that it’s all up-hill, tree lined, and huge bunkers. I haven’t played on many other "name" architect courses. I played on a Pete Dye private course Radrick Farms, and that course was absolutley spectacular. But I have to agree with Dan Alister MacKenzie might be the best ever.
Response:
I, too, would like to see more input on architecture and design in this group. It is a subject that I am very interested in. I have read most of the books listed above…some are a little technical and scholarly for me…but there’s a lot to learn. Mackenzie was a master at camoflage (making the golfers mind and eyes beleive things that the golfer knows are not true).
My favorites are the old classics, particularly Ross. I finally got to play a Ross original – Fort Myers CC – in June. According to the pro, the course is all original Ross. Many of Ross’ works have been retouched by architects who can’t resist the urge to "tweak" the design. FTMCC has a good mix of strategic and heroic holes – the heroic holes are mainly doglegs laid out across a barranca that bisects the property, letting you choose how much to bite off on the drive to shorten your approach. For a primarily flat property, I was amazed at the creativity of the green complexes. Nearly all of the greens are built up a good three to six feet above the level of the fairways, but the slopes are gentle enough not to look out of place. The bunkers are fairly large with moderately high, flashed lips – IMHO another effort to add more vertical dimension to the flat course. Ross liberally sprinkled mounds around the greens – the one in the dead center of the entrance to the 2nd green is my favorite: it’s about the size of a minivan, and it forces you to shape your shot into the green around it, as a shot hit directly into it would carom off unpredictably. Heathlands at the Legends (Myrtle Beach) Scottish style course by my favorite new architect, Tom Doak.
Doak did a wonderful job with Heathland. It is by far my favorite course at Myrtle. It was fun watching the Open at Royal Lytham and St. Annes – Doak styled the 18th at Heathland after the 18th at Lytham with the use of the two parallel rows of diagonal fairway bunkers. I also like how Doak used the "dunes" on the short 8th, creating a small green partially hidden on the left by a large dune. It’s a somewhat gentler version of Lahinch #6, The Dell. I am anxious to see reviews of Royal New Kent near Williamsburg, Virginia. It’s also a Legends Group course – the name of the architect escapes me, but it was highly touted in Golf World as being another excellent links-style course. It will be interesting to see if it truly plays like a links course, or if it is just a marketing job for a treeless course that lets the rough grow. :-) — John W. Griffin
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Thanks for that input. I have not been to that part of the country to play golf yet. I am from the Midwest, and have played a lot in CA. NC/SC is blessed with a great number of good courses, and I would like to get there someday. I personally have not played a great number of noteworthy courses, so I cannot provide a lot of comments. I have seen a lot of pictures though. I encourage you to provide any comments you have – keep it going. Richard
Response:
[...] My favorites are the old classics, particularly Ross. I finally got to play a Ross original – Fort Myers CC – in June. According to the pro, the course is all original Ross. Many of Ross’ works have been retouched by architects who can’t resist the urge to "tweak" the design.
John, I wonder if Ross was consistently excellent though? (Perhaps there’s a Donald Ross Society member out there who could shed some light on this.) Less than a mile from our house is the Delaware Country Club, a nine hole Donald Ross course. This little stinker bears almost no relation to some other famous Ross courses in Central Ohio: Scioto Country Club (the club where Jack Nicklaus learned golf), Columbus Country Club and the Granville Golf Course. Both Scioto and Granville have been "tweaked," and in the case of Scioto some people believe it was a big mistake to have fiddled with Ross’ work. I’ve walked Scioto and the Columbus Country Club –they are magnificent courses– and I look forward to playing Granville in the RSG Ohio Open in September. The above mentioned Delaware Country Club is going to be tweaked soon in a major way. Fuzzy Zoeller is the primary architect for a new nine and will redo the Ross 9. The name of the course will be changed to, of all things, Dornoch! Anyway, I’ve played the present Delaware Country Club, and drive by it every week. Perhaps the argument could be made that it’s a travesty to touch anything Ross had a hand in, after all there are thousands of courses in the US to fiddle with. However, the knowledge I have of Del. Country Club leads me to believe that not all of Ross’ creations were untouchable gems. –Jim
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – | | I haven’t been reading this group for long, but haven’t noticed any | discussions about arch. Anyone out there have any opnions on | course/holes/architects that are the best. | You want opinions?? Have I go | For anyone interested in architecture, the book to own is "The | Architects of Golf" by Geoffrey S. Cornish and Ronald E. Whitten | (Originally published as "The Golf Course"). | | Other excellent books on architecture: | Dr. Alister MacKenzie: "Golf Course Architecture" and "The Spirit of | St. Andrews" | H.N. Wethered and Tom Simpson "The Architectural Side of Golf" | George C. Thomas "Golf Architecture in America" | Robert Price "Scotland’s Golf Courses | Charles Blair McDonald "Scotland’s Gift — Golf" | Robert Hunter "The Links" | Horace Hutchinson "Golf" From the badminton series | Tom Doak "The Anatomy of a Golf Course" and "The Confidential Guide" | Bernard Darwin "The Golf Course of the British Isles" | H.S. Colt and C.H. Alison "Some essays on Golf Course Architecture"
I, too, would like to see more input on architecture and design in this group. It is a subject that I am very interested in. I have read most of the books listed above…some are a little technical and scholarly for me…but there’s a lot to learn. Mackenzie was a master at camoflage (making the golfers mind and eyes beleive things that the golfer knows are not true). I live in the Southeast and have been lucky to have played several magnificent courses…both old and new. Augusta National is indeed incredible. I played it once three years ago. It is a visually spectacular…but not all that difficult course from tee to green. The contours of the greens are incredible. I find it incredible that Faldo was only above the hole once during his final round at the 96 Masters (that one hole was the 9th…when he HAD to be above the hole to keep it on the green). Favorite holes…6 (when the pin is back right) and 12 (the most indimidating short hole ever). The Ocean Course at Kiawah (site of the 1991 Ryder Cup) is the most brutally difficult course I have ever played. It does have some average holes (maybe just one or two)…and the fairways are pretty wide…but the pressure to keep your ball in the fairway is intense. Out of the fairway (and into the dunes) and you’re in trouble…deep trouble. Again…the contouring of the greens is sometimes subtle here…but there are very few straight putts…even from four feet. Favorite holes…4 (a long par four with a green set in a giant dune) and 11…a three-shot par five from the #4 tees to a green sitting atop a giant dune). Harbor Town (another Pete Dye course) is a masterpiece. There are only two holes from which you can see the ocean (17 and 18)…the fairways are narrow (trees overhang some of the fairways…meaning it’s better if you can shape your shots). And the greens are tiny. This course has taken a hot of heat for not being in good shape. But they have a new superintendent…and from what I hear…it is in good shape year round now. Favorite holes…9 (a great short par 4…your tee shot must be on the right side of the fairway…and a tiny horseshoe green) and 13…short par four with a horseshoe railroad tie bunker surrounding the entire front half of the green). Other great courses in the area… Palmetto (Aiken, SC) great ole-timey coure…redesigned by Mackenzie Camden CC (Camden, SC) Donald Ross redesign…wonderful elevated greens. Heathlands at the Legends (Myrtle Beach) Scottish style course by my favorite new architect, Tom Doak. Etowah Valley (Hendersonville, NC) very tough from the back tees. Turtle Point (Kiawah Island, SC) Nicklaus course with great greens and three spectacular sea-side holes. Let’s continue to talk about this subject…it will give people visiting other parts of the country (and world for that matter) new choices for golf. Doug Spets
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| I play the University of Michigan golf course which is an Alister | MacKenzie design and I agree with Dan, MacKenzie is the best | architect there was. His use of bunkers and just the imense size of | them are incredible. The university reminds me a lot of Augusta | National in that it’s all up-hill, tree lined, and huge bunkers. I | haven’t played on many other "name" architect courses. I played on a | Pete Dye private course Radrick Farms, and that course was absolutley | spectacular. But I have to agree with Dan Alister MacKenzie might be | the best ever. I have never played his courses, but they look good from pictures. One that I like is Donald Ross, like Pinehurst. His design is very sublime – he doesn’t pound you over the head with RR ties, but uses subtle elevation changes and small undulations, both on the green and in the fairway. I believe that this is the way golf courses should be made. Pete Dye, although he is designing a new golf course at my alma mater, Purdue, is one of my least favorite designers. Too "in your face" for me. Have any favorite courses?? Richard
Response:
Ross never even got to see half the courses he is credited with designing. A bit like McKenzie I suspect. Some of McKenzies best courses in Australia were largely the great work of his Australian assistants, Alex Russell(eg bunkering at Kingston Heath). Still the best architect in my book though. Cheers, Brett – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [...] My favorites are the old classics, particularly Ross. I finally got to play a Ross original – Fort Myers CC – in June. According to the pro, the course is all original Ross. Many of Ross’ works have been retouched by architects who can’t resist the urge to "tweak" the design. John, I wonder if Ross was consistently excellent though? (Perhaps there’s a Donald Ross Society member out there who could shed some light on this.) Less than a mile from our house is the Delaware Country Club, a nine hole Donald Ross course. This little stinker bears almost no relation to some other famous Ross courses in Central Ohio: Scioto Country Club (the club where Jack Nicklaus learned golf), Columbus Country Club and the Granville Golf Course. Both Scioto and Granville have been "tweaked," and in the case of Scioto some people believe it was a big mistake to have fiddled with Ross’ work. I’ve walked Scioto and the Columbus Country Club –they are magnificent courses– and I look forward to playing Granville in the RSG Ohio Open in September. The above mentioned Delaware Country Club is going to be tweaked soon in a major way. Fuzzy Zoeller is the primary architect for a new nine and will redo the Ross 9. The name of the course will be changed to, of all things, Dornoch! Anyway, I’ve played the present Delaware Country Club, and drive by it every week. Perhaps the argument could be made that it’s a travesty to touch anything Ross had a hand in, after all there are thousands of courses in the US to fiddle with. However, the knowledge I have of Del. Country Club leads me to believe that not all of Ross’ creations were untouchable gems. –Jim
Response:
John, I wonder if Ross was consistently excellent though?
In all fairness, how many architects produce five-star designs with every piece of property they work? I wouldn’t expect every Ross design to have the brilliance of Pinehurst or Seminole. However, the knowledge I have of Del. Country Club leads me to believe that not all of Ross’ creations were untouchable gems. –Jim
Point well taken. But I think it is unfortunate that many greens committees have taken it upon themselves to "improve" Ross designs without at least doing some research or consulting professional architects. I enjoyed Ft Myers CC. I have no idea whether it was a course that Ross actually saw or not. It sure showed a lot of imagination for such a flat site. Ross may have laid out a bunch of courses on topographicals only, but I find it difficult to see how such wonderful detail around the greens could be created without Ross – or a trusted associate – overseeing the actual construction. Perhaps I’m underestimating Ross’ talent (which would be very hard to do) or the amount of detail that could be translated from hole plans. — John W. Griffin
Response:
John, I wonder if Ross was consistently excellent though?
From 1912, up to his death in 1948 Donald Ross is credited with designing over 250 courses. Even including the War years, where little golf construction was done, that was a 36 year golf design career. This is an average of almost 7 course designs a year. Kind of tough to put your heart and soul into that many designs a year. During Ross’ prime, his name could be a major selling point to a course looking for members. Donald Ross was not above selling his name. there are numerous instances where Donald Ross’ involvement in a course was writing out a routing plan going by nothing but the topographical map of the area. There are courses he designed that he never even came to the site. His firm also at one time had as many as 3,000 employees. Getting Donald Ross to design your course did not always mean getting Donald Ross himself. He spent a large portion of his time on courses such as Pinehurst, Seminole, Oak Hill, Oakland Hill, Sciota, etc… However, the knowledge I have of Del. Country Club leads me to believe that not all of Ross’ creations were untouchable gems.
This is the other issue. Some of Donald Ross’ architect principles have fallen out of favor over the years. Crown greens have been lowered by green committees. Penal bunkers have been softened or even removed. Fairway humps and hallows have been eliminated. Courses don’t stay the same over the years. It’s a rare membership that attempts to maintain the original designers vision. If you want to learn more about Mr. Ross, get up to the highlands of Scotland and study Royal Dornoch. It’s the greatest course in the world, and the one that inspired Donald Ross. Cheers, Dan King The old style courses were designed to make a player hit a variety of shots — high, low, draw, fade, bump and run, floating chips. Now with a lot of the new courses, our only choice is to hit it high and soft. –Corey Pavin
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| | I haven’t been reading this group for long, but haven’t noticed any | discussions about arch. Anyone out there have any opnions on | course/holes/architects that are the best. | | You want opinions?? Have I got opinions! | | Best course: Royal Dornoch – Original layout Tom Morris | modifications by John Sutherland | J.H. Taylor | Donald Ross | George Duncan | D.M.A. Steel | | Best Hole: Pebble Beach Hole#8 – Jack Neville | Bunkering done by — Dr. Alister MacKenzie | I agree that this is a tremendous hole. There are many good ones at PB, 9 and 17 being good ones as well. When I played there I was lucky enough to par all of these, so I guess I have positive thoughts about them. | Best Architects. Prior to my recent trip to Scotland, the answer was | easy. Dr. Alister MacKenzie and George C. Thomas. I’ve played a number | of their courses, and am always amazed at how much more I like the courses | every time I play them. But after my recent pilgrimage, I have become | much more impressed by some of the old time designers. It’s the | difference between laying out a course and designing a course. The old time | designers worked with the terrain that existed. The newer designers move I like courses that are designed using existing terrain too. I wish more modern designers would do this. | dirt to fit their vision. I have a bigger appreciation for Tom Morris who | shows up at Royal Dornoch, lays out 18 holes and leaves in a fortnight. | | My favorite designers and some of their more famous work (Often | times the courses have changed considerably since the course was first | designed): | | James Braid: Royal Blackheath, St Enodoch, Blairgowrie-Wee, Brora, | Carnoustie-Burns, Dalmahoy, Gleneagles-Kings, | Gleneagles-Queens, North Berwick-East, Holyhead | Courses he heavily modified: Ballybunion-Old, Blairgowrie-Rosemount, | Carnoustie, Murcar, Nairn, Prestwick, St. Andrews-Old, | St. Andrews-New, Royal Troon, Royal Porthcrawl | | Tom Morris: Muirfield, Royal Dornoch, St. Andrews-New, Prestwick, | Luffness-New, Lahinich, Royal North Devon, Royal County | Down, Old Moray, Tain. | Courses he heavily modified: St. Andrews-Old, Machrihanish, Nairn. | | Dr. Alister MacKenzie: Cypress Point, Pasatiempo, Valley Club of Montecito, | Augusta National, Crystal Downs, Royal Melbourne, | Courses he heavily modified: California GC, Monterey Penisula, Kingston | Heath, Royal St. George’s, Lahinich, Blairgowrie, Royal Troon, | St. Andrews-Old | Based on your list, I think that Tom Morris and Alister would be my faves. I think that Muirfield is a wonderful design, judging strictly from pictures that I have seen. Cypress is a world-reknown course, but not many have probably heard of Pasatiempo, which is south of San Jose, somwhere. I have heard nothing of great things about this course, although I know nothing about it. I played with a couple from England at PB, and said they were giving up a chance at Spyglass Hills to play Pasatiempo. Must be great – I think I will head down there next weekend. | Tom Simpson: Kilkenny, Cruden Bay, Club de Campo de Malaga, Zurich G &CC | Courses he heavily modified: Royal Antwerp, Royal Lytham & St. Annes, | Sunningdale-New, Ballybunion-Old, Luffness-New, Muirfield, | Royal Aberdeen | | George C. Thomas: Bel-Air CC, Los Angeles CC-North, Ojai Valley, | Riviera CC. | | The designer I’d most like to find out more about right now is | Eddie Hackett. He’s an Irish designer that I’ve read a few | wonderful things about. Hopefully I’ll find out more about him in | the next year while I plan a trip to Ireland. | | After playing Pebble Beach a few weeks ago, I have a new appreciation | for it. | | It was originally designed by Jack Neville. Pebble Beach was his | first design work. He designed it in 1918. In 1971, when Sandy | Tatum was brought in to return Pebble to it’s former glory, | preparing it for the U.S. Open, he found Jack Neville living in | Pacific Grove and had him assist him. There have been numerous | changes to Pebble since the original lay-out. Even the name has | changed, it was originally the Del Monte Golf and Country Club. | H. Chandler Egan was brought in during the late 20s and made | significant modifications. He changed the 18th hole from a short | par-4, into the par-5 around the water that exists today. | Dr. Alister MacKenzie was involved in changing much of the | bunkering on the course including the great bunkering around the | 8th hole. Jack Nicklaus was brought in during the early 90s and | made changes, many to the area around the 7th green. | | For anyone interested in architecture, the book to own is "The | Architects of Golf" by Geoffrey S. Cornish and Ronald E. Whitten | (Originally published as "The Golf Course"). | | Other excellent books on architecture: | Dr. Alister MacKenzie: "Golf Course Architecture" and "The Spirit of | St. Andrews" | H.N. Wethered and Tom Simpson "The Architectural Side of Golf" | George C. Thomas "Golf Architecture in America" | Robert Price "Scotland’s Golf Courses | Charles Blair McDonald "Scotland’s Gift — Golf" | Robert Hunter "The Links" | Horace Hutchinson "Golf" From the badminton series | Tom Doak "The Anatomy of a Golf Course" and "The Confidential Guide" | Bernard Darwin "The Golf Course of the British Isles" | H.S. Colt and C.H. Alison "Some essays on Golf Course Architecture" | | A few of these books are out of print and hard to find. I’ve never | seen the Hunter or Thomas book for less than $700US. I don’t own | either of these books, but I have read them. I’m often tempted to | go ahead and buy them. Excellent books. The Simpson and Wethered | book is a very good starting place for anyone interested in course | design. | | Cheers, | Dan King | | The best architects feel it to be their duty to make the path to the | hole as free as possible from annoying difficulties for the less | skillful golfers, while at the same time presenting to the scratch | players a route calling for the best shots at their command. | –Robert Hunter, 1926 | Thanks a lot for all of these comments. You obviously know a lot on this subject. Do you have any opinions on some of the great courses in the eastern part of this country, like Merion, Oakmont, Winged Foot, etc. I personally think that Merion is a wonderful course. Please tell use more! Richard
Response:
I haven’t been reading this group for long, but haven’t noticed any discussions about arch. Anyone out there have any opnions on course/holes/architects that are the best. After playing Pebble Beach a few weeks ago, I have a new appreciation for it. Richard
Response:
I haven’t been reading this group for long, but haven’t noticed any discussions about arch. Anyone out there have any opnions on course/holes/architects that are the best.
You want opinions?? Have I got opinions! Best course: Royal Dornoch – Original layout Tom Morris modifications by John Sutherland J.H. Taylor Donald Ross George Duncan D.M.A. Steel Best Hole: Pebble Beach Hole#8 – Jack Neville Bunkering done by — Dr. Alister MacKenzie Best Architects. Prior to my recent trip to Scotland, the answer was easy. Dr. Alister MacKenzie and George C. Thomas. I’ve played a number of their courses, and am always amazed at how much more I like the courses every time I play them. But after my recent pilgrimage, I have become much more impressed by some of the old time designers. It’s the difference between laying out a course and designing a course. The old time designers worked with the terrain that existed. The newer designers move dirt to fit their vision. I have a bigger appreciation for Tom Morris who shows up at Royal Dornoch, lays out 18 holes and leaves in a fortnight. My favorite designers and some of their more famous work (Often times the courses have changed considerably since the course was first designed): James Braid: Royal Blackheath, St Enodoch, Blairgowrie-Wee, Brora, Carnoustie-Burns, Dalmahoy, Gleneagles-Kings, Gleneagles-Queens, North Berwick-East, Holyhead Courses he heavily modified: Ballybunion-Old, Blairgowrie-Rosemount, Carnoustie, Murcar, Nairn, Prestwick, St. Andrews-Old, St. Andrews-New, Royal Troon, Royal Porthcrawl Tom Morris: Muirfield, Royal Dornoch, St. Andrews-New, Prestwick, Luffness-New, Lahinich, Royal North Devon, Royal County Down, Old Moray, Tain. Courses he heavily modified: St. Andrews-Old, Machrihanish, Nairn. Dr. Alister MacKenzie: Cypress Point, Pasatiempo, Valley Club of Montecito, Augusta National, Crystal Downs, Royal Melbourne, Courses he heavily modified: California GC, Monterey Penisula, Kingston Heath, Royal St. George’s, Lahinich, Blairgowrie, Royal Troon, St. Andrews-Old Tom Simpson: Kilkenny, Cruden Bay, Club de Campo de Malaga, Zurich G &CC Courses he heavily modified: Royal Antwerp, Royal Lytham & St. Annes, Sunningdale-New, Ballybunion-Old, Luffness-New, Muirfield, Royal Aberdeen George C. Thomas: Bel-Air CC, Los Angeles CC-North, Ojai Valley, Riviera CC. The designer I’d most like to find out more about right now is Eddie Hackett. He’s an Irish designer that I’ve read a few wonderful things about. Hopefully I’ll find out more about him in the next year while I plan a trip to Ireland. After playing Pebble Beach a few weeks ago, I have a new appreciation for it.
It was originally designed by Jack Neville. Pebble Beach was his first design work. He designed it in 1918. In 1971, when Sandy Tatum was brought in to return Pebble to it’s former glory, preparing it for the U.S. Open, he found Jack Neville living in Pacific Grove and had him assist him. There have been numerous changes to Pebble since the original lay-out. Even the name has changed, it was originally the Del Monte Golf and Country Club. H. Chandler Egan was brought in during the late 20s and made significant modifications. He changed the 18th hole from a short par-4, into the par-5 around the water that exists today. Dr. Alister MacKenzie was involved in changing much of the bunkering on the course including the great bunkering around the 8th hole. Jack Nicklaus was brought in during the early 90s and made changes, many to the area around the 7th green. For anyone interested in architecture, the book to own is "The Architects of Golf" by Geoffrey S. Cornish and Ronald E. Whitten (Originally published as "The Golf Course"). Other excellent books on architecture: Dr. Alister MacKenzie: "Golf Course Architecture" and "The Spirit of St. Andrews" H.N. Wethered and Tom Simpson "The Architectural Side of Golf" George C. Thomas "Golf Architecture in America" Robert Price "Scotland’s Golf Courses Charles Blair McDonald "Scotland’s Gift — Golf" Robert Hunter "The Links" Horace Hutchinson "Golf" From the badminton series Tom Doak "The Anatomy of a Golf Course" and "The Confidential Guide" Bernard Darwin "The Golf Course of the British Isles" H.S. Colt and C.H. Alison "Some essays on Golf Course Architecture" A few of these books are out of print and hard to find. I’ve never seen the Hunter or Thomas book for less than $700US. I don’t own either of these books, but I have read them. I’m often tempted to go ahead and buy them. Excellent books. The Simpson and Wethered book is a very good starting place for anyone interested in course design. Cheers, Dan King The best architects feel it to be their duty to make the path to the hole as free as possible from annoying difficulties for the less skillful golfers, while at the same time presenting to the scratch players a route calling for the best shots at their command. –Robert Hunter, 1926