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INTL wks 1 & 2 / GE Wks 2 & 3 – Laura

admin — Sat, 18 Dec 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I try and plan things but they don’t always work out right. Something I need to work on for 2005. Happy holidays to you too.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good job, Laura. It seems you planned everything carefully. Happy holidays to you too! — Nathalie from Belgium 134.1/88.9/minigoal 88.7/ Goal 68 Kg 295.6/196/minigoal 195.6/Goal 150 pounds INTL challenge 200.9/196/189.6 pounds 91.1/ 88.9/86 Kg Catch up time again…. INTL week 1: down .2 to 178.4 INTL week 2: down .4 to 178.0 GE week 2: 3 Curves GE week 3: 3 Curves Well I have been plugging away at this and have managed to lose tiny bits of weight both weeks despite using all of my 35 WPAs. It sure beats gaining at this time of year. I am waiting for my ever elusive TOM to arrive. I’m on day 45 of my cycle which also accounts for the slow down in my weight loss. We are off to mom’s next week in florida for 2 weeks. I am hoping that our typical eating out on vacation won’t be too off-Core and I can at least maintain until my next meeting on January 8th. That’s a long way away and a lot of damage can be done in that period of time. I am packing ww smoothies, splenda, popcorn, cereal and a few other core foods to get me through the first couple of days before we can get to the store (20-30 minute drive). I am going to call mom’s caregiver today and ask her to pick up skim milk, FF yogurt and a bag of salad for me too. That ought to cover me for a while. It will just mean that I have to be extra careful with dinners for the next 2 weeks. I also plan on using the pool while I am down there. Last year they offered water aerobics a couple of times a week. This year I plan on making sure that I make it there. And of course the weather will be perfect (I hope) for taking a daily walk. That will be instead of Curves while I am there. Hope everyone has a good week. I’m going to be on dial up starting Monday so I won’t be around much for the next 2 weeks. Merry Christmas and a Happy New year to everyone. — ~Laura~ 245.6/178/145 WW 4/21/03 178.6/178/170 INTL

Response:

Thanks Fred. I’m working at it. I think I am all packed and ready to go fly into the wind. Not sure what clothes to bring but I go through this each Christmas. Its hard to go from winter weather and clothes to summer over night. I even spent the time moving all of the short sleeved shirts to the back of the closet so that they would be all together before I picked the ones to pack. Where mom lives is a tad more upper crust than what we are accustomed to. It really is a whole different world where she lives. Not our style at all. We are more casual – almost preppy in style. Not the golf/tennis/country club setting of where she lives. But just being in the sun will be a nice change for me. I need the break, badly.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Congrats on two consecutive weeks of loss. Have fun in the sunshine state. Catch up time again…. INTL week 1: down .2 to 178.4 INTL week 2: down .4 to 178.0 GE week 2: 3 Curves GE week 3: 3 Curves Well I have been plugging away at this and have managed to lose tiny bits of weight both weeks despite using all of my 35 WPAs. It sure beats gaining at this time of year. I am waiting for my ever elusive TOM to arrive. I’m on day 45 of my cycle which also accounts for the slow down in my weight loss. We are off to mom’s next week in florida for 2 weeks. I am hoping that our typical eating out on vacation won’t be too off-Core and I can at least maintain until my next meeting on January 8th. That’s a long way away and a lot of damage can be done in that period of time. I am packing ww smoothies, splenda, popcorn, cereal and a few other core foods to get me through the first couple of days before we can get to the store (20-30 minute drive). I am going to call mom’s caregiver today and ask her to pick up skim milk, FF yogurt and a bag of salad for me too. That ought to cover me for a while. It will just mean that I have to be extra careful with dinners for the next 2 weeks. I also plan on using the pool while I am down there. Last year they offered water aerobics a couple of times a week. This year I plan on making sure that I make it there. And of course the weather will be perfect (I hope) for taking a daily walk. That will be instead of Curves while I am there. Hope everyone has a good week. I’m going to be on dial up starting Monday so I won’t be around much for the next 2 weeks. Merry Christmas and a Happy New year to everyone.

Response:

our leader said that maintain is a mini goal worth having and if you plan for it then you are not going to beat yourself up as bad if you don’t lose, if you do lose then that is a bonus, good luck, Lee

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I probably will do a combination of the two. Count points but try and stay as close to core as possible. I seem to lose better when I eat mostly core. I hope to just maintain for the next 2 weeks but I’ll take any loss I can sneak in. have a great time, have you considered flex while at your mom’s? Lee Catch up time again…. INTL week 1: down .2 to 178.4 INTL week 2: down .4 to 178.0 GE week 2: 3 Curves GE week 3: 3 Curves Well I have been plugging away at this and have managed to lose tiny bits of weight both weeks despite using all of my 35 WPAs. It sure beats gaining at this time of year. I am waiting for my ever elusive TOM to arrive. I’m on day 45 of my cycle which also accounts for the slow down in my weight loss. We are off to mom’s next week in florida for 2 weeks. I am hoping that our typical eating out on vacation won’t be too off-Core and I can at least maintain until my next meeting on January 8th. That’s a long way away and a lot of damage can be done in that period of time. I am packing ww smoothies, splenda, popcorn, cereal and a few other core foods to get me through the first couple of days before we can get to the store (20-30 minute drive). I am going to call mom’s caregiver today and ask her to pick up skim milk, FF yogurt and a bag of salad for me too. That ought to cover me for a while. It will just mean that I have to be extra careful with dinners for the next 2 weeks. I also plan on using the pool while I am down there. Last year they offered water aerobics a couple of times a week. This year I plan on making sure that I make it there. And of course the weather will be perfect (I hope) for taking a daily walk. That will be instead of Curves while I am there. Hope everyone has a good week. I’m going to be on dial up starting Monday so I won’t be around much for the next 2 weeks. Merry Christmas and a Happy New year to everyone. — ~Laura~ 245.6/178/145 WW 4/21/03 178.6/178/170 INTL

Response:

Congrats on the losses, eek, dialup… sorry about that! see you in a couple weeks and enjoy your holidays! — ~Kristin 277/273.8/177 re-started WW 11/29/04

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Catch up time again…. INTL week 1: down .2 to 178.4 INTL week 2: down .4 to 178.0 GE week 2: 3 Curves GE week 3: 3 Curves Well I have been plugging away at this and have managed to lose tiny bits of weight both weeks despite using all of my 35 WPAs. It sure beats gaining at this time of year. I am waiting for my ever elusive TOM to arrive. I’m on day 45 of my cycle which also accounts for the slow down in my weight loss. We are off to mom’s next week in florida for 2 weeks. I am hoping that our typical eating out on vacation won’t be too off-Core and I can at least maintain until my next meeting on January 8th. That’s a long way away and a lot of damage can be done in that period of time. I am packing ww smoothies, splenda, popcorn, cereal and a few other core foods to get me through the first couple of days before we can get to the store (20-30 minute drive). I am going to call mom’s caregiver today and ask her to pick up skim milk, FF yogurt and a bag of salad for me too. That ought to cover me for a while. It will just mean that I have to be extra careful with dinners for the next 2 weeks. I also plan on using the pool while I am down there. Last year they offered water aerobics a couple of times a week. This year I plan on making sure that I make it there. And of course the weather will be perfect (I hope) for taking a daily walk. That will be instead of Curves while I am there. Hope everyone has a good week. I’m going to be on dial up starting Monday so I won’t be around much for the next 2 weeks. Merry Christmas and a Happy New year to everyone. — ~Laura~ 245.6/178/145 WW 4/21/03 178.6/178/170 INTL

Response:

Thanks. Yeah, dialup just bites. Plus I am going to be using a really old lap top with Win95 on it. Talk about the dark ages. yuck.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Congrats on the losses, eek, dialup… sorry about that! see you in a couple weeks and enjoy your holidays! — ~Kristin 277/273.8/177 re-started WW 11/29/04 Catch up time again…. INTL week 1: down .2 to 178.4 INTL week 2: down .4 to 178.0 GE week 2: 3 Curves GE week 3: 3 Curves Well I have been plugging away at this and have managed to lose tiny bits of weight both weeks despite using all of my 35 WPAs. It sure beats gaining at this time of year. I am waiting for my ever elusive TOM to arrive. I’m on day 45 of my cycle which also accounts for the slow down in my weight loss. We are off to mom’s next week in florida for 2 weeks. I am hoping that our typical eating out on vacation won’t be too off-Core and I can at least maintain until my next meeting on January 8th. That’s a long way away and a lot of damage can be done in that period of time. I am packing ww smoothies, splenda, popcorn, cereal and a few other core foods to get me through the first couple of days before we can get to the store (20-30 minute drive). I am going to call mom’s caregiver today and ask her to pick up skim milk, FF yogurt and a bag of salad for me too. That ought to cover me for a while. It will just mean that I have to be extra careful with dinners for the next 2 weeks. I also plan on using the pool while I am down there. Last year they offered water aerobics a couple of times a week. This year I plan on making sure that I make it there. And of course the weather will be perfect (I hope) for taking a daily walk. That will be instead of Curves while I am there. Hope everyone has a good week. I’m going to be on dial up starting Monday so I won’t be around much for the next 2 weeks. Merry Christmas and a Happy New year to everyone. — ~Laura~ 245.6/178/145 WW 4/21/03 178.6/178/170 INTL

Response:

I probably will do a combination of the two. Count points but try and stay as close to core as possible. I seem to lose better when I eat mostly core. I hope to just maintain for the next 2 weeks but I’ll take any loss I can sneak in.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – have a great time, have you considered flex while at your mom’s? Lee Catch up time again…. INTL week 1: down .2 to 178.4 INTL week 2: down .4 to 178.0 GE week 2: 3 Curves GE week 3: 3 Curves Well I have been plugging away at this and have managed to lose tiny bits of weight both weeks despite using all of my 35 WPAs. It sure beats gaining at this time of year. I am waiting for my ever elusive TOM to arrive. I’m on day 45 of my cycle which also accounts for the slow down in my weight loss. We are off to mom’s next week in florida for 2 weeks. I am hoping that our typical eating out on vacation won’t be too off-Core and I can at least maintain until my next meeting on January 8th. That’s a long way away and a lot of damage can be done in that period of time. I am packing ww smoothies, splenda, popcorn, cereal and a few other core foods to get me through the first couple of days before we can get to the store (20-30 minute drive). I am going to call mom’s caregiver today and ask her to pick up skim milk, FF yogurt and a bag of salad for me too. That ought to cover me for a while. It will just mean that I have to be extra careful with dinners for the next 2 weeks. I also plan on using the pool while I am down there. Last year they offered water aerobics a couple of times a week. This year I plan on making sure that I make it there. And of course the weather will be perfect (I hope) for taking a daily walk. That will be instead of Curves while I am there. Hope everyone has a good week. I’m going to be on dial up starting Monday so I won’t be around much for the next 2 weeks. Merry Christmas and a Happy New year to everyone. — ~Laura~ 245.6/178/145 WW 4/21/03 178.6/178/170 INTL

Response:

Good job, Laura. It seems you planned everything carefully. Happy holidays to you too! — Nathalie from Belgium 134.1/88.9/minigoal 88.7/ Goal 68 Kg 295.6/196/minigoal 195.6/Goal 150 pounds INTL challenge 200.9/196/189.6 pounds 91.1/ 88.9/86 Kg

Response:

Any loss is a good loss — Dan Braasch 237/227/? minigoal 220

Response:

Catch up time again…. INTL week 1: down .2 to 178.4 INTL week 2: down .4 to 178.0 GE week 2: 3 Curves GE week 3: 3 Curves Well I have been plugging away at this and have managed to lose tiny bits of weight both weeks despite using all of my 35 WPAs. It sure beats gaining at this time of year. I am waiting for my ever elusive TOM to arrive. I’m on day 45 of my cycle which also accounts for the slow down in my weight loss. We are off to mom’s next week in florida for 2 weeks. I am hoping that our typical eating out on vacation won’t be too off-Core and I can at least maintain until my next meeting on January 8th. That’s a long way away and a lot of damage can be done in that period of time. I am packing ww smoothies, splenda, popcorn, cereal and a few other core foods to get me through the first couple of days before we can get to the store (20-30 minute drive). I am going to call mom’s caregiver today and ask her to pick up skim milk, FF yogurt and a bag of salad for me too. That ought to cover me for a while. It will just mean that I have to be extra careful with dinners for the next 2 weeks. I also plan on using the pool while I am down there. Last year they offered water aerobics a couple of times a week. This year I plan on making sure that I make it there. And of course the weather will be perfect (I hope) for taking a daily walk. That will be instead of Curves while I am there. Hope everyone has a good week. I’m going to be on dial up starting Monday so I won’t be around much for the next 2 weeks. Merry Christmas and a Happy New year to everyone. — ~Laura~ 245.6/178/145 WW 4/21/03 178.6/178/170 INTL

Response:

Congratulations on losing that .4 this week. Elaine – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Catch up time again…. INTL week 1: down .2 to 178.4 INTL week 2: down .4 to 178.0 GE week 2: 3 Curves GE week 3: 3 Curves Well I have been plugging away at this and have managed to lose tiny bits of weight both weeks despite using all of my 35 WPAs. It sure beats gaining at this time of year. I am waiting for my ever elusive TOM to arrive. I’m on day 45 of my cycle which also accounts for the slow down in my weight loss. We are off to mom’s next week in florida for 2 weeks. I am hoping that our typical eating out on vacation won’t be too off-Core and I can at least maintain until my next meeting on January 8th. That’s a long way away and a lot of damage can be done in that period of time. I am packing ww smoothies, splenda, popcorn, cereal and a few other core foods to get me through the first couple of days before we can get to the store (20-30 minute drive). I am going to call mom’s caregiver today and ask her to pick up skim milk, FF yogurt and a bag of salad for me too. That ought to cover me for a while. It will just mean that I have to be extra careful with dinners for the next 2 weeks. I also plan on using the pool while I am down there. Last year they offered water aerobics a couple of times a week. This year I plan on making sure that I make it there. And of course the weather will be perfect (I hope) for taking a daily walk. That will be instead of Curves while I am there. Hope everyone has a good week. I’m going to be on dial up starting Monday so I won’t be around much for the next 2 weeks. Merry Christmas and a Happy New year to everyone.

Response:

Especially at this time of year.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Any loss is a good loss — Dan Braasch 237/227/? minigoal 220 Catch up time again…. INTL week 1: down .2 to 178.4 INTL week 2: down .4 to 178.0 GE week 2: 3 Curves GE week 3: 3 Curves Well I have been plugging away at this and have managed to lose tiny bits of weight both weeks despite using all of my 35 WPAs. It sure beats gaining at this time of year. I am waiting for my ever elusive TOM to arrive. I’m on day 45 of my cycle which also accounts for the slow down in my weight loss. We are off to mom’s next week in florida for 2 weeks. I am hoping that our typical eating out on vacation won’t be too off-Core and I can at least maintain until my next meeting on January 8th. That’s a long way away and a lot of damage can be done in that period of time. I am packing ww smoothies, splenda, popcorn, cereal and a few other core foods to get me through the first couple of days before we can get to the store (20-30 minute drive). I am going to call mom’s caregiver today and ask her to pick up skim milk, FF yogurt and a bag of salad for me too. That ought to cover me for a while. It will just mean that I have to be extra careful with dinners for the next 2 weeks. I also plan on using the pool while I am down there. Last year they offered water aerobics a couple of times a week. This year I plan on making sure that I make it there. And of course the weather will be perfect (I hope) for taking a daily walk. That will be instead of Curves while I am there. Hope everyone has a good week. I’m going to be on dial up starting Monday so I won’t be around much for the next 2 weeks. Merry Christmas and a Happy New year to everyone. — ~Laura~ 245.6/178/145 WW 4/21/03 178.6/178/170 INTL

Response:

thank you Elaine.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Congratulations on losing that .4 this week. Elaine Catch up time again…. INTL week 1: down .2 to 178.4 INTL week 2: down .4 to 178.0 GE week 2: 3 Curves GE week 3: 3 Curves Well I have been plugging away at this and have managed to lose tiny bits of weight both weeks despite using all of my 35 WPAs. It sure beats gaining at this time of year. I am waiting for my ever elusive TOM to arrive. I’m on day 45 of my cycle which also accounts for the slow down in my weight loss. We are off to mom’s next week in florida for 2 weeks. I am hoping that our typical eating out on vacation won’t be too off-Core and I can at least maintain until my next meeting on January 8th. That’s a long way away and a lot of damage can be done in that period of time. I am packing ww smoothies, splenda, popcorn, cereal and a few other core foods to get me through the first couple of days before we can get to the store (20-30 minute drive). I am going to call mom’s caregiver today and ask her to pick up skim milk, FF yogurt and a bag of salad for me too. That ought to cover me for a while. It will just mean that I have to be extra careful with dinners for the next 2 weeks. I also plan on using the pool while I am down there. Last year they offered water aerobics a couple of times a week. This year I plan on making sure that I make it there. And of course the weather will be perfect (I hope) for taking a daily walk. That will be instead of Curves while I am there. Hope everyone has a good week. I’m going to be on dial up starting Monday so I won’t be around much for the next 2 weeks. Merry Christmas and a Happy New year to everyone.

Response:

have a great time, have you considered flex while at your mom’s? Lee

Response:

Pictures over the Las Vegas Strip

admin — Fri, 02 Apr 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Belagio, that’s the name of it, all I could think of was the water show out front, couldn’t think of the name. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Image 4, Back lot of the Belagio Casino (brown building), Intersection with I-15 and Flamingo looking SW. BT Taking my plane over to Henderson airport from North Las Vegas airport this morning, got some decent pictures, I am going to get some better ones when I can get the wife to take them. Anyone interested in seeing the strip, and flying over Las Vegas International airport (LAS) at 4500 ft here you go http://www.turboarrow3.com/newplane/vegas/index.html

Response:

so thats Steve Wynn’s new place, tells you how often I get down to the strip, I try to avoid it. I cant remember the last time I actually drove down the strip. thanks for the help on the ID – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jeff… Picture 3, that is the new "Wynn Las Vegas" Casino being built in the foreground, the old Desert Inn property, the old DI Golf Course behind it The nice Golf Course to the upper left is the Las Vegas Country Club, left of that is the Hilton Hotel on Paradise Rd. Between the two golf courses is the Las Vegas Convention Center (washed out). Behind your vent window is the top of the Venetian Hotel, with the roof of the Sands Convention Center behind it. any questions on the other pictures.. let me know. BT Taking my plane over to Henderson airport from North Las Vegas airport this morning, got some decent pictures, I am going to get some better ones when I can get the wife to take them. Anyone interested in seeing the strip, and flying over Las Vegas International airport (LAS) at 4500 ft here you go http://www.turboarrow3.com/newplane/vegas/index.html

Response:

Image 4, Back lot of the Belagio Casino (brown building), Intersection with I-15 and Flamingo looking SW. BT

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Taking my plane over to Henderson airport from North Las Vegas airport this morning, got some decent pictures, I am going to get some better ones when I can get the wife to take them. Anyone interested in seeing the strip, and flying over Las Vegas International airport (LAS) at 4500 ft here you go http://www.turboarrow3.com/newplane/vegas/index.html

Response:

I had the wrong setting on the camera and they were over exposed. I was solo so couldnt get the settings changed, I al going to get some better ones as soon as I can get my wife to go up with me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The images appear to be badly over-exposed, as you noticed. I would suggest bracketing your exposures for better results. Don’t think that the pictures are ruined, though. You can correct for a lot with a good photo editor. You might also consider using a longer lens. This will narrow the field of view and help keep the wing out of the picture. It also helps to slip the airplane a little so that the wing is moved further back out of the picture. I think with some cropping, exposure and color balance adjustment you just might have some pretty good pictures there. Looking forward to the next batch.

Response:

Jeff… Picture 3, that is the new "Wynn Las Vegas" Casino being built in the foreground, the old Desert Inn property, the old DI Golf Course behind it The nice Golf Course to the upper left is the Las Vegas Country Club, left of that is the Hilton Hotel on Paradise Rd. Between the two golf courses is the Las Vegas Convention Center (washed out). Behind your vent window is the top of the Venetian Hotel, with the roof of the Sands Convention Center behind it. any questions on the other pictures.. let me know. BT

Response:

The images appear to be badly over-exposed, as you noticed. I would suggest bracketing your exposures for better results. Don’t think that the pictures are ruined, though. You can correct for a lot with a good photo editor. You might also consider using a longer lens. This will narrow the field of view and help keep the wing out of the picture. It also helps to slip the airplane a little so that the wing is moved further back out of the picture. I think with some cropping, exposure and color balance adjustment you just might have some pretty good pictures there. Looking forward to the next batch.

Response:

Thanks, Jeff. Those are great photos none the less and I sure miss Las Vegas. Being in Canada, I really appreciate how nice the southern desert area of the US is. Truly a great place to live and fly.

Response:

Taking my plane over to Henderson airport from North Las Vegas airport this morning, got some decent pictures, I am going to get some better ones when I can get the wife to take them. Anyone interested in seeing the strip, and flying over Las Vegas International airport (LAS) at 4500 ft here you go http://www.turboarrow3.com/newplane/vegas/index.html

Great pictures, but how come it looks like it’s snowing?

Response:

Food & Exercise — 3/27/2004

admin — Sat, 27 Mar 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Food (all at home); 8:00: 2 poached eggs on 1 slice whole wheat toast w/ 3 slices melted f/f cheese; 3 mint meringue cookies 11:00: 1 apple 12:15: sandwich w/ 2 slices whole wheat bread, 104g grilled chicken breast, and 1 tsp mustard 3:30: protein shake 7:15: 104g porterhouse steak; 146g baked potato; 90g snow peas {This was takeout from our country club. Our food minimum was running out, and we didn’t feel like going out to eat, so DH went over (it’s just a mile away) and got 3 take-out steak dinners to use up the minimum. It’s enough steak for about 6 meals, I think. I ate less than half of one serving.} sometime later this evening: creatine Totals: 1450 calories, 22g fat (14%), 177g carbs (49%), 131g protein (36%) Averages for the week: 1403 calories, 22% fat, 45% carbs, 32% protein Exercise: Just a little housework — not much. {For the record, I will be cutting back on exercise to conserve energy for the meet on Friday.} Chris 262/157/ (145-150)

Response:

7:15: 104g porterhouse steak; 146g baked potato; 90g snow peas {This was takeout from our country club. Our food minimum was running out, and we didn’t feel like going out to eat, so DH went over (it’s just a mile away) and got 3 take-out steak dinners to use up the minimum. It’s enough steak for about 6 meals, I think. I ate less than half of one serving.} I totally didn’t get the ‘food minimum’ thing. Can you enlighten me? Dally

Don’t know whether it’s the same at all clubs but at many of the local country clubs members are required to purchase a minimum amount of food and beverages to support these services.

Response:

I totally didn’t get the ‘food minimum’ thing. Can you enlighten me? Dally

Response:

Sorry — I shouldn’t have assumed it made sense. It’s typical for country clubs to require that members spend a certain amount in the dining room per month or per quarter. If you don’t, they bill you for it anyway. This quarter we had around $60 of our minimum left that we’d have been billed for at the end of the month whether or not we spent it. So in effect what we got last night was free food. Chris

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 7:15: 104g porterhouse steak; 146g baked potato; 90g snow peas {This was takeout from our country club. Our food minimum was running out, and we didn’t feel like going out to eat, so DH went over (it’s just a mile away) and got 3 take-out steak dinners to use up the minimum. It’s enough steak for about 6 meals, I think. I ate less than half of one serving.} I totally didn’t get the ‘food minimum’ thing. Can you enlighten me? Dally Sorry — I shouldn’t have assumed it made sense. It’s typical for country clubs to require that members spend a certain amount in the dining room per month or per quarter. If you don’t, they bill you for it anyway. This quarter we had around $60 of our minimum left that we’d have been billed for at the end of the month whether or not we spent it. So in effect what we got last night was free food. Chris

Ah, thanks. I have no experience with them. I don’t even think there’s a Country Club near me. What benefit does it give you? Dally

Response:

Ah, thanks. I have no experience with them. I don’t even think there’s a Country Club near me. What benefit does it give you?

I know country clubs aren’t that big a deal in the Boston area; I used to live there. I expect it’s because golf isn’t that popular, and most people join country clubs primarily for the golf. We don’t really do golf. For us, the benefits of the club are: * It’s a sort of social center for the neighborhood. There’s a community of homes surrounding the club and most people belong. * They have a good restaurant, and it’s within walking distance of our house. The nearest other restaurants above burger quality are around 10 miles away. * There’s a swimming pool that we use in the summer. There are also tennis courts, but I’ve only used them a couple of times — don’t really play tennis. * It’s a nice place to take guests, where we can just sign a check for a meal and never deal with cash or credit cards or anything that might make them feel like they should offer to pay. * The club also has a small gym, which I want to check out for occasional workouts when I don’t feel like going to our real gym. I haven’t ever used it, though. Chris

Response:

Trepidation over sinus surgery

admin — Wed, 17 Dec 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

First, the vitals… 34 y/o male, obese, CPAP via nasal interface @ 10 cm H20. In third month of CPAP. I have intermittant difficulty breathing nasally, which obviously interferes with the CPAP therapy. I take Nasonex, which provides some relief. I have also started a course of allergy shots. I have frequent sinus headaches, usually during high-to-low atmospheric pressure changes. After a CT and physical examination, my ENT determined I have a deviated septum, enlarged turbinates, and congested ethmoids. He was suprise that my maxillary sinuses were clear. He recommends one surgery to correct these problems: correction of the septum, enlarging the drainage opennings of the ethmoids and breaking up the honeycomb of bone in the ethmoids, and reducing the turbinates. He plans to pack my nose with dissolving packing, rather than the apparently more common materials that must be removed during an office visit. I expressed concern about having apneas during recovery, as I will not be able to breathe through my nose until the packing comes out. He did not seem concerned with the fact I had an average of 74 hyponeas/hour and 78% Oxygen saturation during my sleep study. My pulmonary doc perscribed low-flow Oxygen for me after the surgery, but the ENT was ambivelent about it. I am also concerned about the use of dissolving packing. I suspect he plans to choose this so I don’t need to make an office call Christmas week (on a previous visit, prior to an ultimately cancelled surgery time, he said I would need to see him two times shortly after the surgery for packing removal). The ENT said he would prescribe Tylenol with codiene for post-op pain relief, which strikes me a little weak. I generally have to take two Vicodin to surpress occasional severe headaches, and the pain never really goes away, it is just dulled. He said he could prescribe something stronger if necessary(!) He plans to perform the surgery under general anesthetic, which is also a source of concern. I believe I could tolerate being worked on during a local, but he won’t discuss that option. I obtain a second opinion from another ENT. He was very milquetoast about it. He said I could have the surgery, or not have it…it was up to me. For this they get paid the big bucks? Any comment and guidance would be much appreciated. My wife is of the opinion I should wait until early spring to have this done, after the flu/cold/etc. season has passed. TIA! Aric

Response:

In article , usenet_tar…@yahoo.com says… > First, the vitals… > 34 y/o male, obese, CPAP via nasal interface @ 10 cm H20. In third > month of CPAP.

<<>> > Any comment and guidance would be much appreciated. My wife is of the > opinion I should wait until early spring to have this done, after the > flu/cold/etc. season has passed.

Much as I hate to say it… listen to your wife . At least for this situation. Your first ENT sounds like he needs a boat payment or his country club fees are due soon. Doesn’t particularly have that patient- first sound to me. The second ENT sounds almost as bad- just that his golf and boat payments are probably up to date. Neither of them would be MY choice to listen to or have slicing and dicing MY face. Can your pulmonologist suggest an ENT for you? Might be nice if the 2 specialists would talk to each other- yeah? Cynical- hell yes. I’ve seen too many greedy or ambivilent doctors of late to be otherwise. Get a third opinion, or more until you find a doctor willing to listen to YOU and your concerns- especially with local vs general, and after-surgery O2 and care. Another reason to wait is that winter pressure changes may level off in the spring- fewer changes may help the situation, and being past the cold/flu/crud season will lessen chances for other infections. Good luck and happy, safe and healthy holidays, vic

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Aric wrote: > First, the vitals… > 34 y/o male, obese, CPAP via nasal interface @ 10 cm H20. In third > month of CPAP. > I have intermittant difficulty breathing nasally, which obviously > interferes with the CPAP therapy. I take Nasonex, which provides some > relief. I have also started a course of allergy shots. I have > frequent sinus headaches, usually during high-to-low atmospheric > pressure changes. > After a CT and physical examination, my ENT determined I have a > deviated septum, enlarged turbinates, and congested ethmoids. He was > suprise that my maxillary sinuses were clear. He recommends one > surgery to correct these problems: correction of the septum, > enlarging the drainage opennings of the ethmoids and breaking up the > honeycomb of bone in the ethmoids, and reducing the turbinates. He > plans to pack my nose with dissolving packing, rather than the > apparently more common materials that must be removed during an office > visit. > I expressed concern about having apneas during recovery, as I will not > be able to breathe through my nose until the packing comes out. He > did not seem concerned with the fact I had an average of 74 > hyponeas/hour and 78% Oxygen saturation during my sleep study. My > pulmonary doc perscribed low-flow Oxygen for me after the surgery, but > the ENT was ambivelent about it. > I am also concerned about the use of dissolving packing. I suspect he > plans to choose this so I don’t need to make an office call Christmas > week (on a previous visit, prior to an ultimately cancelled surgery > time, he said I would need to see him two times shortly after the > surgery for packing removal). > The ENT said he would prescribe Tylenol with codiene for post-op pain > relief, which strikes me a little weak. I generally have to take two > Vicodin to surpress occasional severe headaches, and the pain never > really goes away, it is just dulled. He said he could prescribe > something stronger if necessary(!) > He plans to perform the surgery under general anesthetic, which is > also a source of concern. I believe I could tolerate being worked on > during a local, but he won’t discuss that option. > I obtain a second opinion from another ENT. He was very milquetoast > about it. He said I could have the surgery, or not have it…it was > up to me. For this they get paid the big bucks? > Any comment and guidance would be much appreciated. My wife is of the > opinion I should wait until early spring to have this done, after the > flu/cold/etc. season has passed. > TIA! > Aric

Did your pulmonologist agree with the ENT? De your pulmonologist see the CT. Did the ENT also do an endoscopy? Did he write a report. Did your pulmonologist read it? Can you find a pulmonologist diplomated sleep doc for consultation, i.e. look at CT, reports, etc. http://www.absm.org/Diplomates/listing.htm You sound intelligent enough to understand what you need to do, based on the questions above. If not, repost with any additional questions you may have. HTH

Response:

Two suggestions: 1. Have your ENT discuss the surgery and post-op care with whatever physician (pulmonologist presumably) is treating your apnea. They should agree on a COMMON treatment plan. 2. Instead of doing the sinus surgery on an outpatient basis, ask your ENT about staying in the hospital for a night or two so that your apnea can be monitored. If something goes wrong, they can spot it and deal with it. Your ENT should be able to convince your health insurer that your apnea necessitates at least one overnight stay in the hospital. — Steven L.

Response:

On 23 Dec 2003 16:11:30 -0800, turbina…@hotmail.com (turbinates) wrote: >I ‘ve just read an paper on nasal packing (in Pubmed). It said that >the packing is only good to control bleeding. Adhesion rate is the >same for packing and non pakcing patients. Packing causes more >discomfort and can be damaging…

Yes I believe that that is the current view….

Response:

Don Brady wrote in message … > On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:33:57 -0800, nos…@nospam.com wrote: > >Having that packing taken out is supposed to be pure hell… > It really didn’t bother me at all – one quck pull…….

I had no packing at all even though three turbinates was resected and a significant amount of cartilage was removed? I am unable to work this one out…

Response:

On 23 Dec 2003 05:05:18 -0800, turbina…@hotmail.com (turbinates) wrote: >I had no packing at all even though three turbinates was resected and >a significant amount of cartilage was removed? I am unable to work >this one out…

I tihnk that some surgeons do not use packing much. Actually, mine only uses it for some patients - I think part of the reason was that I had a septal correction…… It as removed the next morning…

Response:

Don Brady wrote: > On 23 Dec 2003 05:05:18 -0800, turbina…@hotmail.com (turbinates) wrote: >>I had no packing at all even though three turbinates was resected and >>a significant amount of cartilage was removed? I am unable to work >>this one out… > I tihnk that some surgeons do not use packing much.

My surgeon didn’t plan to use packing with my surgery. When I woke up in the Recovery Room, I had no packing and my nose felt clearer than it had been in years. Unfortunately, I had so much post-nasal bleeding that my surgeon was forced to put packing in. — Steven L.

Response:

Don Brady wrote in message … > On 23 Dec 2003 05:05:18 -0800, turbina…@hotmail.com (turbinates) wrote: > >I had no packing at all even though three turbinates was resected and > >a significant amount of cartilage was removed? I am unable to work > >this one out… > I tihnk that some surgeons do not use packing much. > Actually, mine only uses it for some patients - I think part of the reason was > that I had a septal correction…… It as removed the next morning…

I ‘ve just read an paper on nasal packing (in Pubmed). It said that the packing is only good to control bleeding. Adhesion rate is the same for packing and non pakcing patients. Packing causes more discomfort and can be damaging…

Response:

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:33:57 -0800, nos…@nospam.com wrote: >Having that packing taken out is supposed to be pure hell…

It really didn’t bother me at all – one quck pull…….

Response:

I have had two sinus surgeries, the first three years ago and the second a year ago. My sinus surgeon commented that my CT scans looked like a poster for sinus disease. He showed me some sample images on a poster used to educate patients, and mine definitely looked as bad or worse than anything on it. Today, I feel fantastic, with very, very few sinus problems. In fact, I feel better, sinus wise, than I have in thirty or so years. I can smell things fine, very rarely get infections, and don’t do much in the way of maintenance. I do irrigate with the Grossman unit (nice device, but tough to keep clean

Trepidation over sinus surgery

admin — Wed, 17 Dec 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 21:33:57 -0800, nos…@nospam.com wrote: >Having that packing taken out is supposed to be pure hell…

It really didn’t bother me at all – one quck pull…….

Response:

How far do you drive to play golf?

admin — Sun, 07 Dec 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I wouldn’t drive across the street to play golf. I would however. drive down the sidewalk to run down a fan of the game.

Response:

My ‘home’ course where I regularly play is 23 miles from my house. I play 130 rounds per year. How bout y’all?

My ‘home course’ is a muni about 2 miles down the road. I’d love to play as often as my kid who is on the hs team and plays there almost daily. A nicer public course is about 8 miles and a toll bridge away as is a cheap ($6 for all you can play) juco 9 hole course. — Bob Andrews

Response:

My ‘home’ course where I regularly play is 23 miles from my house. I play 130 rounds per year. How bout y’all? As far as it takes. Last Christmas I drove to Pheonix Arizona from atlanta just to golf… me

…But how far would you drive to play FREE golf, Sparky?

Response:

It’s 47 miles from my front door in northwest Austin, Texas to the parking lot at ColoVista Country Club in Bastrop,

I wonder if the folks who bought my house in Bastrop in 1992 would be willing to sell it back for the same price. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd

Response:

My ‘home’ course where I regularly play is 23 miles from my house. I play 130 rounds per year. How bout y’all?

As far as it takes. Last Christmas I drove to Pheonix Arizona from atlanta just to golf… me

Response:

My ‘home’ course where I regularly play is 23 miles from my house. I play 130 rounds per year. How bout y’all?

the nearest public 18 hole course is 30 minutes from my front door to the cash register at the pro shop. now, if saratoga country club would let me play… never mind, I’m dreaming again.

Response:

Well, don’t leave us "festooned" – what was the outcome of this issue? v

Help needed – Golf in South Africa

admin — Sat, 22 Nov 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

We can certainly help with courses in the Johannesburg area – we are members at Johannesburg Country Club, Royal Johannesburg and Blue Valley (a new Gary Player course) and can advise on many others as we have played golf here in Jozi for a lifetime! If you are interested there is "Golf in the Wild" – the course at Hans Merensky is a championship course with a chance of the "big five" to be seen as well as right on the border of the Kruger National Park – if you are interested I can get you details of trips etc available – it is not to be missed if you have the time. If this idea excites you, and you have the budget, a trip to Leopard Creek is also on the cards. Tho expensive, it is a great experience. (That’s Johan Rupert’s private course!) Are you able to arrange two games on the Gary Player Course at Sun City? Because this is a great course.and once you have played it the first time you will lust to try it just once more! Myself I don’t like the Lost City course so much cause you have to cart there and I prefer to walk, however it is a good experience with lots of bird life and worth at least one game just for the record. Have you already paid for the accommodation at Sun City? We have time share there and may be able to help with that as well depending on your timing. All courses allow you to walk – the newer ones have cart paths but carts tend to be in limited supply in any event. Caddies are generally quite useful, expecially on the more reputable courses and you might find that to budget for this is a great help as it can become extremely hot and tiring to pull a cart (depends when you plan to visit – golf is possible all through the year but lousy in the Cape in winter and the absolute best in Johannesburg in the winter.) Please let me know what other aid you may need – we are only too pleased to help

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are planning an extended trip to South Africa and would appreciate some help from golfers from there or who have been there. We hope to play in many areas – Johannesburg/Pretoria area, Durban and KwaZulu-Natal coast, Eastern Cape and Garden Route, Cape Town area (Staying near Fishoek) Many clubs are very sticky about attire, but shorts that can be belted and short white socks are fine. Collared shirts are a must. Same for guys and gals. Gals can do long shorts tho. 99% of clubs have caddies and go for about 10-20USD. Most courses have power carts, but walking is great (depending on season) and the price of courses ranges from 20USD-80USD for Sun City. Leopard Creek is the most spendy, but you need to stay there to play. Not a bad thing. It’s next to the Kruger park. Durban is good for golf esp Durban Country Club. Plus many resort course further south and north Cape Town – Atalantic Beach, Royal Cape, Pearl Valley. Eastern Cape – Sparrebosch, Fancourt (4 courses to choose from but $$$) On the Highveld, you have some good courses in Pretoria and Johannesburg, Woodhill, Dainfern, Glendower, Parkview, Randpark, Bryanston (need to play with a member). Another neat course is Hans Merensky in Phalaborwa. Very cool. Bring your camera and sanp the wildlife and I mean wildlife!! Do get to play Sun City. It’s awesome and the countryside is amazing. We all know it’s set in a volcano (extinct) but the bush is great and has to be experienced to be understood. Bring sturdy clothes if you wack you ball into the thorn bushes like I did. Lost City is good, but not great. The Gary Don’t count on rentals. You can buy cheap stuff here. Give me a shout, maybe we can do RSG RSA? Trevor

Response:

Many clubs are very sticky about attire, but shorts that can be belted and short white socks are fine. Collared shirts are a must. Same for guys and gals. Gals can do long shorts tho. 99% of clubs have caddies and go for about 10-20USD. Most courses have power carts, but walking is great (depending on season) and the price of courses ranges from 20USD-80USD for Sun City. Leopard Creek is the most spendy, but you need to stay there to play. Not a bad thing. It’s next to the Kruger park. Durban is good for golf esp Durban Country Club. Plus many resort course further south and north Cape Town – Atalantic Beach, Royal Cape, Pearl Valley. Eastern Cape – Sparrebosch, Fancourt (4 courses to choose from but $$$) On the Highveld, you have some good courses in Pretoria and Johannesburg, Woodhill, Dainfern, Glendower, Parkview, Randpark, Bryanston (need to play with a member). Another neat course is Hans Merensky in Phalaborwa. Very cool. Bring your camera and sanp the wildlife and I mean wildlife!! Do get to play Sun City. It’s awesome and the countryside is amazing. We all know it’s set in a volcano (extinct) but the bush is great and has to be experienced to be understood. Bring sturdy clothes if you wack you ball into the thorn bushes like I did. Lost City is good, but not great. The Gary Don’t count on rentals. You can buy cheap stuff here. Give me a shout, maybe we can do RSG RSA? Trevor

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – We are planning an extended trip to South Africa and would appreciate some help from golfers from there or who have been there. We hope to play in many areas – Johannesburg/Pretoria area, Durban and KwaZulu-Natal coast, Eastern Cape and Garden Route, Cape Town area (Staying near Fishoek) Questions: 1. What is the normal dress code? Are shorts & short socks OK or are long stockings or ankle socks required? Can ladies wear shorts? 2. Presumably caddies are more common than they are here. Do courses require you to use them or is it OK to use a pull cart? Can we rent them at most courses or should we buy them over there? 3. We prefer to walk – do many clubs/courses use power carts? 4. If we use caddies, what is the usual tip? 5. Any suggestions for some good municipal or economy courses. (We have arrangements to play some good courses – Gary Player courses at Sun City & Dainfern; Royal Durban, Durban Country Club.) Thanks in advance. Golfpro_not

http://www.golfdigest.co.za/ Try this link. I briefly looked at the ‘Course guide’ in the navigation bar and saw info about the GP courses and others. Sounds like agreat trip, have fun. — Bob Andrews

Response:

We are planning an extended trip to South Africa and would appreciate some help from golfers from there or who have been there. We hope to play in many areas – Johannesburg/Pretoria area, Durban and KwaZulu-Natal coast, Eastern Cape and Garden Route, Cape Town area (Staying near Fishoek) Questions: 1. What is the normal dress code? Are shorts & short socks OK or are long stockings or ankle socks required? Can ladies wear shorts? 2. Presumably caddies are more common than they are here. Do courses require you to use them or is it OK to use a pull cart? Can we rent them at most courses or should we buy them over there? 3. We prefer to walk – do many clubs/courses use power carts? 4. If we use caddies, what is the usual tip? 5. Any suggestions for some good municipal or economy courses. (We have arrangements to play some good courses – Gary Player courses at Sun City & Dainfern; Royal Durban, Durban Country Club.) Thanks in advance. Golfpro_not

Response:

Hi Just returned 6 weeks ago from SA. Played some golf while we were there. My suggestions for Durban, although I did not get a chance to play them, is Beachwood, which is affiliated with the Durban Country Club. The royal Durban is situated inside a horse racing track, and although it is in great shape, it is still inside a horse racing track! Look for it online. Further south of Durban is SanLameer which is beautiful, as well as the Wild Coast Sun which is also fantastic. Both a bit of a drive. Also try get onto Prince’s Grant, north of Durban. In the Eastern Cape, depending on where you are going, try the Humewood Golf Course in Port Elizabeth. Links course that is constantly rated in the top 10 or 20 courses in SA. A bugger when the wind is up. The only other course I know of in this area that id nice is the Fish River Sun, about an hour or so outside of Port Elizabeth. Garden route courses: Fancourt near George! Also Sparrebosch near Knysna. Cape Town: (never seen these) : Steenberg and Royal Cape, according to those in the know. Just to the interior, Stellenbosch Golf Club in the heart of the winelands and a bustling little University town. Also the Paarl Valley golf course. In Jhb/Pretoria, Glendower in Jhb. Pretoria, try Pecanwood Estates a new Nicklaus course , Silver Lakes and Woodhill (both resort type courses) and maybe Centurion Golf club. Of course then there are the Sun City Courses that are great. These are all great courses and the prices are really good when going with foreign currency. The most expensive course in SA is 260Canadian dollars and that is very hight. most of the aove are in the 50-100 dollar Canadian range. I played a few courses for 8 Canuck bucks, but they were a little rougher around the edges than these. Shorts and short socks are fine, too hot for anything else.Ladies may wear shorts. You can use a caddie, pull a cart or get proper golf cart. I just carried my own clubs. Walking is the norm, with a lot of people using caddies. I am uncertain what the usual tip is. Hope this helps. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -We are planning an extended trip to South Africa and would appreciate some help from golfers from there or who have been there. We hope to play in many areas – Johannesburg/Pretoria area, Durban and KwaZulu-Natal coast, Eastern Cape and Garden Route, Cape Town area (Staying near Fishoek) Questions: 1. What is the normal dress code? Are shorts & short socks OK or are long stockings or ankle socks required? Can ladies wear shorts? 2. Presumably caddies are more common than they are here. Do courses require you to use them or is it OK to use a pull cart? Can we rent them at most courses or should we buy them over there? 3. We prefer to walk – do many clubs/courses use power carts? 4. If we use caddies, what is the usual tip? 5. Any suggestions for some good municipal or economy courses. (We have arrangements to play some good courses – Gary Player courses at Sun City & Dainfern; Royal Durban, Durban Country Club.) Thanks in advance. Golfpro_not

Response:

Hey Ken

admin — Sun, 16 Nov 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Sorry to disappoint you. The only times that I actually "rag" on Tiger are when he loses control fo his temper and mouth. The sycophantic fans are my main targets. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Uh … I don’t always agree with what Ken posts, but I’d say his Tiger rants are the least of the problems that make RSG less than "civil". Oh, and thanks for giving Ken another chance to rag on Tiger 8^). Rob Why is it that every time one of us brings up Tiger you feel compelled to start the negative comments. When can this newsgroup become a civil place again? I say when Ken stops slamming every poster who has something good to say about Tiger Woods One pissed off poster

Response:

a golf course are those whose fathers, and their fathers before them, were members of a country club.

wrong again range ball breath.I remember loving golf (and watching golf on tv) long before tiggy was out of diappers.many tiger fans have never touched a golf club and have no idea of the difference between a 3 iron and a lob wedge.but that reminds me of a school day lesson.who has more right to an opinion the beginner or an expert?golf is obviously a snob appeal only to those who can afford it.And to those of us who can not…see you at the local muni !

Response:

The point being made was that the most fanatical Tiger supporters tend to be the most ignorant of the game and the rest of the players on the tour. Ken

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO true !!!

Response:

The point being made was that the most fanatical Tiger supporters tend to be the most ignorant of the game and the rest of the players on the tour. Ken SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO true !!!

If a fire is raging downtown, it tends to attract a large and diverse crowd…not only professional fire-watchers. They may, however, BECOME professional fire-watchers! Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at benewman dot bizland dot com * http://go.to/bruce_newman

Response:

Then just watch where the fans go. They’ll be 3 deep on the 10th fairway all the way down the hill.

While the fools line up 3 deep to lemming their way behind tiger I will be on 10 with 4 of the best golfers in the world watching them work around the course, and dont think for 1 minute I will get any less of a show then tiggy will muster. OK story op.each year a tournament comes to town (the buick classic,westchester ny).I have attended this since I could ride a bike (im 49 now) each visit is different usually eithor pearch myself by 9 or 18 green sometimes walk / group but usually just set up somewhere and watch,this memory has me by 9 green (up hill par 5)its a tues or weds practice round and for around 1 hour me and less than 20 others watch group after group come through (year was around 95-97) all of a sudden hear comes tiggy followed by 50 plus adults with poster boards swarming all over doing anything possible to get tiggers sig .talk about gross these were not kids or fans they were professionals trying to cash in on tiggers fame).I love the tournament and can recount the different memories vj practicing,billy andrade standing next to me wayne grady walkin behind me (it was his voice that gave him away) in 99 I actually was a techie and carried an audio mike inside the ropes for abc.a truley unforgettable experience.for me tiggy is ok but I am there for golf not the circus side show !

Response:

I have no problem with acknowledging that he is the best player in the game right now, but it is the PGA not the TGA. There are a lot of others out there who can and do win big events.

Well, have you seen the movie Amadeus? Salieri demands equal air time, but people were only interested in Mozart. At that time it probably wasn’t readily apparent that Mozart was one for the ages and Salieri "also ran". It may be disrespectful in a way, but perhaps one day people will say about you: he had the chance to actually watch Mozart live, but he settled for Salieri Ulrich

Response:

I have no problem with acknowledging that he is the best player in the game right now, but it is the PGA not the TGA. There are a lot of others out there who can and do win big events. Well, have you seen the movie Amadeus? Salieri demands equal air time, but people were only interested in Mozart. At that time it probably wasn’t readily apparent that Mozart was one for the ages and Salieri "also ran". It may be disrespectful in a way, but perhaps one day people will say about you: he had the chance to actually watch Mozart live, but he settled for Salieri

Nice analogy, except that it *is* readily apparent that Tiger is one for the ages. Jack’s greatness came from having fairly good years over an unusually long period.. Tiger’s greatness is due to having phenomenal years, every year. This was his worst year since 1998, and it was still better than anyone else’s.

Response:

I have nothing against Tiger…but are people aware that golf has been on tv for years?Tiger is great and no one can take that away from him.But there are like 150 guys in every tournament and there are those of us who do not think he is worth all the attention he brings to the game. BTW does anybody notice how many non golfers and beginners are his fans?kind of like reality following fiction kind of happy gilmoreish. Agree with all that.

Of course you do. Tiger is the greatest recruiting tool golf has ever had, but they’re the WRONG KIND of people. Some of them are still learning the game! Everyone knows that the only acceptable people on a golf course are those whose fathers, and their fathers before them, were members of a country club.

Response:

there are those of us who do not think he is worth all the attention he brings to the game. BTW does anybody notice how many non golfers and beginners are his fans?

I think you just contradicted yourself. You have noticed how many new golfers (and non-golfers) Tiger has attracted to the game (or the telecasts), and yet you say that Tiger isn’t worth the attention. Obvisouly, he IS worth the attention since he’s the one responsible for creating it. Golf has always had it’s drawing cards like Arnie and Greg Norman, but Tiger is the best draw golf has had yet. Go to Augusta and send a foursome of the next best players (Singh, Els, Weir, Love) off #1 tee and send Tiger off #10. Then just watch where the fans go. They’ll be 3 deep on the 10th fairway all the way down the hill. Been there, done that. Never saw Ken there.

Response:

That’s exactly why the networks give so much air time to Tiger…and the PGA loves it. The saving grace of all of this is how much more interest that he’s brought to the game. Remember before Tiger, and after Jack? Interest was waning, and there was a lot less coverage of the game in the media. The other 149 guys in a tournament just don’t tickle the public fancy….and that’s what sells tickets, and Buicks. ___ o ’ | / . "Someone likes every shot" bk Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge. Ignore them and they’ll go away.

Response:

Another distortion. I am the only member of either side of my family to be able to play the game with any competance or belong to a club. You attempted slam against me makes no sense. The point being made was that the most fanatical Tiger supporters tend to be the most ignorant of the game and the rest of the players on the tour. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have nothing against Tiger…but are people aware that golf has been= on tv for years?Tiger is great and no one can take that away from him.But = there are like 150 guys in every tournament and there are those of us who do not = think he is worth all the attention he brings to the game. BTW does anybody notice how many non golfers and beginners are his = fans?kind of like reality following fiction kind of happy gilmoreish. Agree with all that.=20 Of course you do. Tiger is the greatest recruiting tool golf has ever had, but they’re the WRONG KIND of people. Some of them are still learning the game! Everyone knows that the only acceptable people on a golf course are those whose fathers, and their fathers before them, were members of a country club.

Response:

I don’t disagree with you at all, Ken. But I see Tiger taking the heat for all this when he isn’t to blame. Last I checked, he doesn’t arrange any of the programming. IMO (and not pointing at you, Ken), I think a LOT of people get upset or lose interest in Tiger because of the way the media shoves him in our faces. Tiger doesn’t do that, however; the media does. Tiger still gets the blame though. Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at benewman dot bizland dot com * http://go.to/bruce_newman

Response:

It’s true. There was a period of time after Jack’s dominance waned that golf’s TV ratings were lower than tennis. Tennis appeared to be the hip, "hot" sport. It is simply a fact that it wasn’t until Tiger burst on the scene in late ‘96 and then won the Masters in record fashion in ‘97 that a lot of tournaments that had NEVER sold out tickets started routinely selling out year after year. For some of those tournaments, there’s now a waiting list to get NEXT YEAR’s tickets. That never happened before Tiger. And I never saw Wayne Levi’s picture on the front of Time, People or USA TODAY. Nice man, and a fine golfer. But he never attracted the same attention to the game that Tiger has. Even he would admit that. Randy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have nothing against Tiger…but are people aware that golf has been on tv for years?Tiger is great and no one can take that away from him.But there are like 150 guys in every tournament and there are those of us who do not think he is worth all the attention he brings to the game. BTW does anybody notice how many non golfers and beginners are his fans?kind of like reality following fiction kind of happy gilmoreish. That’s exactly why the networks give so much air time to Tiger…and the PGA loves it. The saving grace of all of this is how much more interest that he’s brought to the game. Remember before Tiger, and after Jack? Interest was waning, and there was a lot less coverage of the game in the media. The other 149 guys in a tournament just don’t tickle the public fancy….and that’s what sells tickets, and Buicks. ___ o ’ | / . "Someone likes every shot" bk Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge. Ignore them and they’ll go away.

Response:

Tiger is great and no one can take that away from him.But there are like 150 guys in every tournament and there are those of us who do not think he is worth all the attention he brings to the game.

Then write a letter to everyone paying attention to the game because of Tiger, and explain to them that they are wrong and you are right. Tell them to stop enjoying golf until they have a better reason. BTW does anybody notice how many non golfers and beginners are his fans?

Recruiting new participants and fans is generally considered to be a good thing for a sport — except by elitists.

Response:

Uh … I don’t always agree with what Ken posts, but I’d say his Tiger rants are the least of the problems that make RSG less than "civil". Oh, and thanks for giving Ken another chance to rag on Tiger 8^). Rob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is it that every time one of us brings up Tiger you feel compelled to start the negative comments. When can this newsgroup become a civil place again? I say when Ken stops slamming every poster who has something good to say about Tiger Woods One pissed off poster

Response:

Bruce is absolutely right here. Tiger doesn’t make the choices for the TV networks. The director does. And who can blame him? His job is to create a program that will be watched by the largest possible number of viewers. And there’s plenty of evidence to support the fact that when Tiger is part of the telecast, viewership goes up. That said, this is usually the case because Tiger is in contention. When he’s in contention, more people watch. And yes, some of those people are non-golfers, but bodies are bodies, and the more bodies there are in front of the TV, the more money the network can charge for its commercial time. But I wonder if there’s a direct parallel between Tiger highlights at the top of a show where he’s not in contention and viewership levels. I suspect not, but I could be wrong. Either way, it’s hard to argue the fact that a lot of people tune in to see the tournament and the first thing they want to know is "where’s Tiger?" So these highlight packages at the top of the show address that. I’ve seen lots of telecasts this year where once they’ve gotten the obligatory Tiger highlight package out of the way, there’s been very little (if anything) about him after that. Randy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll give you an example of the problem, I saw a broadcast recently where Tiger was miles out of the lead. He was on about 17 when the leaders were still being introduced. But, what led off the broadcast ? Minutes worth of Tiger highlites. I have no problem with acknowledging that he is the best player in the game right now, but it is the PGA not the TGA. There are a lot of others out there who can and do win big events. I don’t disagree with you at all, Ken. But I see Tiger taking the heat for all this when he isn’t to blame. Last I checked, he doesn’t arrange any of the programming. IMO (and not pointing at you, Ken), I think a LOT of people get upset or lose interest in Tiger because of the way the media shoves him in our faces. Tiger doesn’t do that, however; the media does. Tiger still gets the blame though. Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at benewman dot bizland dot com * http://go.to/bruce_newman

Response:

I’ll give you an example of the problem, I saw a broadcast recently where Tiger was miles out of the lead. He was on about 17 when the leaders were still being introduced. But, what led off the broadcast ? Minutes worth of Tiger highlites. I have no problem with acknowledging that he is the best player in the game right now, but it is the PGA not the TGA. There are a lot of others out there who can and do win big events. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have nothing against Tiger…but are people aware that golf has been on tv for years?Tiger is great and no one can take that away from him.But there are like 150 guys in every tournament and there are those of us who do not think he is worth all the attention he brings to the game. BTW does anybody notice how many non golfers and beginners are his fans?kind of like reality following fiction kind of happy gilmoreish. Blame the media. Tiger sells lots of newspapers, magazines and air time. How can they refuse that? Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at benewman dot bizland dot com * http://go.to/bruce_newman

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -STANDARDIZED BONEHEAD REPLY FORM (Check all boxes that apply) Dear: [ ] Clueless Newbie [X ] Lamer [ X] Flamer [X ] Loser [ ] Spammer [X ] Troller [ ] "Me too" er [X ] Pervert [ ] Geek [ ] Freak [ ] Nerd [ ] Elvis [X ] Racist [ ] Fed [ X] Satanist [X ] Sociopath [ X] Unbearably self-righteous person I took exception to your recent: [ ] Email [X ] Post to rec.?.? (Newsgroup) It was (check all that apply): [X ] Lame [X ] Stupid [ X] Abusive [ ] Clueless [ ] Idiotic [X ] Brain-damaged [X ] Imbecilic [X ] Arrogant [ ] Malevolent [ ] Contemptible [ ] Libelous [ ] Ignorant [ ] Fundamentalist [ ] Boring [ ] Dumb [ X] Cowardly [ ] Deceitful [ ] Demented [X ] Self-righteous [ ] Crazy [ ] Weird [ ] Hypocritical [ ] Loathsome [ ] Satanic [ ] Despicable [ ] Belligerent [ ] Mind-numbing [ ] Maladroit [ X] Much longer than any worthwhile thought of which you may be capable. Your attention is drawn to the fact that: [ ] You posted what should have been emailed [ ] You obviously don’t know how to read your newsgroups line [ ] You are trying to make money on a non-commercial newsgroup [X ] You self-righteously impose your religious beliefs on others [ X] You self-righteously impose your racial beliefs on others [ X] You self-righteously impose your perverted beliefs on others [ ] You posted a binary in a non-binaries group [ ] You don’t know which group to post in [X ] You posted something totally uninteresting [ ] You crossposted to way too many newsgroups [X ] I don’t like your tone of voice [ ] What you posted has been done before. [ ] Not only that, it was also done better the last time. [ ] You quoted an entire post in your reply [ ] You started a long, stupid thread [ ] You continued spreading a long stupid thread [ ] Your post is absurdly off topic for where you posted it [ ] You posted a follow-up to crossposted robot-generated SPAM [ ] You posted a "test" in a discussion group rather than in alt.test [ ] You posted a "YOU ALL SUCK" message [X ] You posted low-IQ flamebait [X ] You posted a blatantly obvious troll [ ] You followed up to a blatantly obvious troll [ ] You said "me too" to something [ ] You make no sense [ ] Your sig./alias is dreadful [X ] You must have spent your life in a skinner box to be this clueless. [ ] You posted a phone-sex ad [ ] You posted a stupid pyramid money making scheme [ ] You claimed a pyramid-scheme/chain letter for money was legal [ ] Your margin settings (or lack of) make your post unreadable. Each line just goes on and on, not stopping at 75 characters, [ ] You posted in ELitE CaPitALs to look k0OwL [ ] You posted a message in ALL CAPS, and you don’t even own a TRS-80 [ ] Your post was FULL of RANDOM CAPS for NO APPARENT REASON [ ] You have greatly misunderstood the purpose of this newsgroup. [ ] You have greatly misunderstood the purpose of the Internet. [X ] You are a loser. [X ] This has been pointed out to you before. [ ] You didn’t do anything specific, but appear to be so generally worthless that you are being flamed on general principles. It is recommended that you: [ ] Get a clue [ ] Get a life [X ] Go away [ ] Grow up [X ] Never post again [ ] Read every newsgroup you posted to for a week [ ] stop reading Usenet news and get a life [ ] stop sending Email and get a life [ X] Bust up your modem with a hammer and eat it [ ] Have your medication adjusted [ ] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor [ X] find a volcano and throw yourself in [ ] Actually post something relevant [ ] Read the FAQ [X ] stick to FidoNet and come back when you’ve grown up [X ] Apologize to everybody in this newsgroup [X ] consume excrement [ ] Post your tests to alt.test/misc.test [X ] Put your home phone number in your posts from now on [ ] Refrain from posting until you have a vague idea what you’re doing In Closing, I’d Like to Say: [ ] You need to seek psychiatric help [ X] Take your gibberish somewhere else [ X] PLONK [X ] Learn how to post or get off the Usenet [ ] Most of the above [ ] All of the above [X ] Some of the above, not including All of the above [ ] You’re so clueless I didn’t even fill-in this form. —-== Posted via Newsfeed.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups —= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers – Total Privacy via Encryption =—

Brilliant – made me laugh and smile.

Response:

Agree with all that. Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have nothing against Tiger…but are people aware that golf has been on tv for years?Tiger is great and no one can take that away from him.But there are like 150 guys in every tournament and there are those of us who do not think he is worth all the attention he brings to the game. BTW does anybody notice how many non golfers and beginners are his fans?kind of like reality following fiction kind of happy gilmoreish.

Response:

Blame the media. Tiger sells lots of newspapers, magazines and air time. How can they refuse that? Bruce Bruce E. Newman * Fredericton, NB, Canada http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=newmanb info at benewman dot bizland dot com * http://go.to/bruce_newman

Response:

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ You bore me.

Response:

Why is it that every time one of us brings up Tiger you feel compelled to

start the negative comments. When can this newsgroup become a civil place again? I say when Ken stops

slamming every poster who has something good to say about Tiger Woods One pissed off poster

STANDARDIZED BONEHEAD REPLY FORM (Check all boxes that apply) Dear: [ ] Clueless Newbie [X ] Lamer [ X] Flamer [X ] Loser [ ] Spammer [X ] Troller [ ] "Me too" er [X ] Pervert [ ] Geek [ ] Freak [ ] Nerd [ ] Elvis [X ] Racist [ ] Fed [ X] Satanist [X ] Sociopath [ X] Unbearably self-righteous person I took exception to your recent: [ ] Email [X ] Post to rec.?.? (Newsgroup) It was (check all that apply): [X ] Lame [X ] Stupid [ X] Abusive [ ] Clueless [ ] Idiotic [X ] Brain-damaged [X ] Imbecilic [X ] Arrogant [ ] Malevolent [ ] Contemptible [ ] Libelous [ ] Ignorant [ ] Fundamentalist [ ] Boring [ ] Dumb [ X] Cowardly [ ] Deceitful [ ] Demented [X ] Self-righteous [ ] Crazy [ ] Weird [ ] Hypocritical [ ] Loathsome [ ] Satanic [ ] Despicable [ ] Belligerent [ ] Mind-numbing [ ] Maladroit [ X] Much longer than any worthwhile thought of which you may be capable. Your attention is drawn to the fact that: [ ] You posted what should have been emailed [ ] You obviously don’t know how to read your newsgroups line [ ] You are trying to make money on a non-commercial newsgroup [X ] You self-righteously impose your religious beliefs on others [ X] You self-righteously impose your racial beliefs on others [ X] You self-righteously impose your perverted beliefs on others [ ] You posted a binary in a non-binaries group [ ] You don’t know which group to post in [X ] You posted something totally uninteresting [ ] You crossposted to way too many newsgroups [X ] I don’t like your tone of voice [ ] What you posted has been done before. [ ] Not only that, it was also done better the last time. [ ] You quoted an entire post in your reply [ ] You started a long, stupid thread [ ] You continued spreading a long stupid thread [ ] Your post is absurdly off topic for where you posted it [ ] You posted a follow-up to crossposted robot-generated SPAM [ ] You posted a "test" in a discussion group rather than in alt.test [ ] You posted a "YOU ALL SUCK" message [X ] You posted low-IQ flamebait [X ] You posted a blatantly obvious troll [ ] You followed up to a blatantly obvious troll [ ] You said "me too" to something [ ] You make no sense [ ] Your sig./alias is dreadful [X ] You must have spent your life in a skinner box to be this clueless. [ ] You posted a phone-sex ad [ ] You posted a stupid pyramid money making scheme [ ] You claimed a pyramid-scheme/chain letter for money was legal [ ] Your margin settings (or lack of) make your post unreadable. Each line just goes on and on, not stopping at 75 characters, [ ] You posted in ELitE CaPitALs to look k0OwL [ ] You posted a message in ALL CAPS, and you don’t even own a TRS-80 [ ] Your post was FULL of RANDOM CAPS for NO APPARENT REASON [ ] You have greatly misunderstood the purpose of this newsgroup. [ ] You have greatly misunderstood the purpose of the Internet. [X ] You are a loser. [X ] This has been pointed out to you before. [ ] You didn’t do anything specific, but appear to be so generally worthless that you are being flamed on general principles. It is recommended that you: [ ] Get a clue [ ] Get a life [X ] Go away [ ] Grow up [X ] Never post again [ ] Read every newsgroup you posted to for a week [ ] stop reading Usenet news and get a life [ ] stop sending Email and get a life [ X] Bust up your modem with a hammer and eat it [ ] Have your medication adjusted [ ] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor [ X] find a volcano and throw yourself in [ ] Actually post something relevant [ ] Read the FAQ [X ] stick to FidoNet and come back when you’ve grown up [X ] Apologize to everybody in this newsgroup [X ] consume excrement [ ] Post your tests to alt.test/misc.test [X ] Put your home phone number in your posts from now on [ ] Refrain from posting until you have a vague idea what you’re doing In Closing, I’d Like to Say: [ ] You need to seek psychiatric help [ X] Take your gibberish somewhere else [ X] PLONK [X ] Learn how to post or get off the Usenet [ ] Most of the above [ ] All of the above [X ] Some of the above, not including All of the above [ ] You’re so clueless I didn’t even fill-in this form. —-== Posted via Newsfeed.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups —= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers – Total Privacy via Encryption =—

Response:

Who are you ? Ken – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why is it that every time one of us brings up Tiger you feel compelled to start the negative comments. When can this newsgroup become a civil place again? I say when Ken stops slamming every poster who has something good to say about Tiger Woods One pissed off poster

Response:

Why is it that every time one of us brings up Tiger you feel compelled to start the negative comments. When can this newsgroup become a civil place again? I say when Ken stops slamming every poster who has something good to say about Tiger Woods One pissed off poster

Response:

Any good Golf ezines around?

admin — Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Hey Group! I’m new to rec.sport.golf and I’d like to ask a small favor, please. If you subscribe to any good golf e-zines (either paid for free) could you please post here so I could check them out. Thanks in advance for your assistance, Jim Van Wyck

Response:

Try ClubWeb’s In and Around the Game – for golf and country club members http://198.65.252.169/clubweb/ob/cw.asp?pg=countmein They don’t make it easy to subscribe, but put out some good info.

Response:

Thanks Frank and "Doe John", These are great links, much appreciated. I am also interested in any ezines that come out weekly, and have *tips, *maybe equipment reviews *resort reviews … things like that Thanks! Jim Van Wyck

Response:

http://golfdigest.com/ Has archives of every article going back a few years http://www.thegolfchannel.com/core.aspx? The subscription to the video vault is well worth it. http://www.golfonline.com/golfonline/ Signing up for the private lesson profile section "unlocks" a bunch of other instructional articles not found in the main menus.

Response:

http://www.freegolfinfo.com/forum/default.asp lots of good stuff at freegolfinfo.com as well – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey Group! I’m new to rec.sport.golf and I’d like to ask a small favor, please. If you subscribe to any good golf e-zines (either paid for free) could you please post here so I could check them out. Thanks in advance for your assistance, Jim Van Wyck

Response:

More golf versus more expensive golf

admin — Sun, 26 Oct 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Reading through many of the strings in RSG I unspoken choices made when it comes to choosing the golf courses you play. I almost used the words ‘quality’ and ‘quantity’ in the title of this string and I was going to explain that I was actually talking about choosing to play less expensive courses and playing more often, rather than playing more expensive courses and playing more often. Some courses are excellent and relatively affordable. That is the ideal. But for me, and I suspect for many if not most recreational golfers, there are many calculations over the course of a golf season that go something like this: I can play the X course for Y dollars and it is a really nice track and I would love to play there but… there goes my golf budget for the month. My other choice is to play the local muni again and play four times this month. I generally opt for playing more often at the cheaper courses, but I try to sneak in a more expensive course at least once a season. Also, I can play a couple of upscale courses if I play them in March or April (I live near Seattle and technically it is a 12-month golf season) when the greens fees are lower. How about input from others. Do you find yourselves making tough golf choices because of budget? Heck, now that I think about it, my budget choices are not limited to where I play. They affect the clubs I play (same irons 3 – PW since 1987), the bag (same bag since 1985) and so on. I even wait for balls to go on sale and I currently have almost a lifetime supply or Tox Flite XL’s and Molitors because I managed to get a ton for about .47/ball. Joel Grant

Response:

Yeah, I’m having the same thoughts. The range I have been a member for the last five years, has changed ownership. The new owner has made a few worthwhile changes. The main thing they did is fertilize the fairways. They did add some new yardage signs on the driving range. But now they have raised the yearly fee almost 70%, and they also raised the cart fee $2.00. Good old American Greed. :^( A.T. — "Take away my people but leave my factory and soon grass will grow on the factory floors. Take away my factories but leave my people and soon we will have a new and better factory" Andrew Carnegie http://www.customknives.com/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Reading through many of the strings in RSG I unspoken choices made when it comes to choosing the golf courses you play. I almost used the words ‘quality’ and ‘quantity’ in the title of this string and I was going to explain that I was actually talking about choosing to play less expensive courses and playing more often, rather than playing more expensive courses and playing more often. Some courses are excellent and relatively affordable. That is the ideal. But for me, and I suspect for many if not most recreational golfers, there are many calculations over the course of a golf season that go something like this: I can play the X course for Y dollars and it is a really nice track and I would love to play there but… there goes my golf budget for the month. My other choice is to play the local muni again and play four times this month. I generally opt for playing more often at the cheaper courses, but I try to sneak in a more expensive course at least once a season. Also, I can play a couple of upscale courses if I play them in March or April (I live near Seattle and technically it is a 12-month golf season) when the greens fees are lower. How about input from others. Do you find yourselves making tough golf choices because of budget? Heck, now that I think about it, my budget choices are not limited to where I play. They affect the clubs I play (same irons 3 – PW since 1987), the bag (same bag since 1985) and so on. I even wait for balls to go on sale and I currently have almost a lifetime supply or Tox Flite XL’s and Molitors because I managed to get a ton for about .47/ball. Joel Grant

Response:

Note: I changed the title of this post as (at least my newsreader) obviously picked up the wrong ‘Subject’. Re: Attached The trade-offs that I have made are ‘the easy ones’, but not trivial in their cost savings. 1) Virtually every club in my bag (and my bag) was bought used (mostly on ebay). I doubt that I am missing much in performance. 2) I play very high end balls (Strata Tour Ultimate), but since they are now out of production I bought 6 dozen earlier this year at $13/dozen (new) on ebay. 3) There is a local trotting track owned by the city where golf is allowed on the infield in the ‘off hours’. I practice more than I play (more cost savings) and shag my own balls for free. I enjoy practicing about as much as playing. Call me wierd. These compromises save me bunches but cost me little in enjoyment. dave

Response:

I generally opt for playing more often at the cheaper courses, but I try to sneak in a more expensive course at least once a season.

That pretty much sums it up. The local courses here are quite enjoyable for me and the cost is not terribly steep. When I am on vacation, I play the expensive courses as a sort of luxury. Several of us had a discussion about the selection of courses for RSG events and the thoughts ran along two lines: 1- the purpose of the events is camaraderie so keep the green fees low and more people will be able to attend and 2 – if someone is going to take the time, effort, and expense to fly to another city to play golf, the golf itself should be memorable. For me, the compromise is somewhere in between for an RSG event. At RSG-DFW, the local muni was used as a practice round and two more upscale courses were used for the tournament rounds. But the muni (Grapevine) was a nice course, not a goat track. The upscale courses were a bit more pricey than my typical weekend of golf ($70 and $75 for the two courses), but they were not the $125 – $150 you might pay on vacation in an exclusive resort. My day-in and day-out local courses are in the $30 to $40 range. I’d rather play them more often than play the $75 courses. But when I go to Hawaii, I want an experience to remember with great vistas and great golf. Besides, it’s vacation money at that point, not real money.

Response:

My day-in and day-out local courses are in the $30 to $40 range. I’d rather play them more often than play the $75 courses. But when I go to Hawaii, I want an experience to remember with great vistas and great golf. Besides, it’s vacation money at that point, not real money.

The firsttime I went to Maui I had planned to play lots of the great courses there. However, when I got there and realized how many rounds I could play back home for the cost of one round at Kapalua, I balked. I ended up playing crappy Kaanapali at the twilight rate. I regretted that decision for a few years until I went back. That time I played lots of great courses on Maui, Lanai, & Kauai. Of course, Mr. VISA was waiting for me when I got home. Ouch! But I still have the memories (and a few pics) of playing those great courses, long after the Chapter 13 paperwork has been completed. So yes, when on vacation I say live it up. Locally, you’ll probably get as much enjoyment on the local muni as you would the more expensive tracks (unless you live on Kauai).

Response:

I generally opt for playing more often at the cheaper courses, but I try to sneak in a more expensive course at least once a season. That pretty much sums it up. The local courses here are quite enjoyable for me and the cost is not terribly steep. When I am on vacation, I play the expensive courses as a sort of luxury.

Here’s my normal golf "options": 1. I am a member of a local club … a "club golfer". My course is usually in good condition, with grass greens and some attractive holes. It is by no means "championship", nor of a startling design, nor is it very long. Just honest, pleasant golf. It is close, convenient and cheap. I play most Saturdays and perhaps every second Thursday afternoon, and since I pay only A$235 annual fees, it averages out at about A$7 (US$4.50) per round, including an A$3 competition fee. 2. While I can’t get into a strictly private course unless I’m a member’s guest, lots of quite good semi-private courses allow players from other clubs to join the daily club competition, provided you have an AGU handicap. Sometimes I pay only a percentage of the normal green fees, which are usually less than A$20 anyway. It’s also quite good fun if you are on a holiday somewhere to find local golf clubs and join one of the local competitions. 3. Club golfers can play in other club’s tournaments. Most clubs include events like stroke, four-ball, Scramble and Stableford over a week or so. Club golfers can enter tournaments at any semi-private club that advertises as "open to anyone with an AGU handicap". For instance, my own club had a 36-hole Mens Open event yesterday, and we had golfers from about 15 other clubs. The total cost was A$22 (US$15) including lunch! On November 8th, I’m playing a similar 36-hole Open at nearby Gisborne for A$25, again including lunch. A four-ball entry can run as low as A$15 per pair. 4. Then sometimes, every so often, I’ll splash out on a high quality course. I think of these as social or fun rounds … they’re usually outside any formal competition, other than perhaps a small side wager, within the group. I have never paid over A$100 (US$69) for any round of golf on some of the best Australian public-access courses. — Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com

Response:

Is that a Typo? $235 annual fee? $4.50 US per round? Will you sponsor my immigration? Colin, if you visited me and we played Troon North here in Scottsdale, you’d blow your yearly budget on 18 holes.

Response:

How about input from others. Do you find yourselves making tough golf choices because of budget?

I play almost all my golf on the local military course and with a punch card it cost me around $8.34 cents to walk it. Another $8.00 for half a cart but I seem to be winning my latest battle with foot pain (thank goodness) so I’m walking. You’ll never see one of our holes on a golf calendar, but it’s ok for the price. There are a couple of nice courses in town that are private (like Northshore CC which I played recently on a Ken Pitts invite), but there really isn’t much locally to tempt me into spending more. I’m hoping to get up to San Antonio on Veteran’s Day to play Pecan Valley. It;s only $24 for retired military on weekdays–a hell of a deal. Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd

Response:

Is that a Typo? $235 annual fee? $4.50 US per round?

No, it’s not a typo (it’s going up to A$245 for next year). That’s what I pay *all-up*. There is no extra charge per round. If I didn’t participate in the club competitions, it’d be all I’d pay. (Green fee players who are not members pay A$16 (US$11).) Club competitions cost A$3 to enter for the day … for that there are A$20 prize vouchers in three grades … token really … plus a low-priced ball each for the top quarter of the field. Some of the older "retired" brigade play every Thursday, every Saturday, plus they organise their own social competition every Monday. They also play Friday evenings during daylight saving … all for A$235! I reckon that’s around A$1.40 per round! Most of the courses around me have annual fees in the A$230-$300 range. We’re out in the sticks an hour from Melbourne, but that doesn’t mean the courses are total crap. In fact Trentham at present is in really good nick. Will you sponsor my immigration? The queue’s about 18-24 months. You need skills, but golfing unfortunately isn’t one of them. Colin, if you visited me and we played Troon North here in Scottsdale, you’d blow your yearly budget on 18 holes.

I realise that. I can play three year’s unlimited golf for the price of *one* round at Pebble Beach. So how much value do you put on quality? BTW, I also play occasionally at Spring Valley where my son is a member. This is a good Melbourne sand-belt course, established in 1952 and designed by Vern Morcom, one of Alister Mackenzie’s Australian "disciples" (http://www.springvalleygolf.com.au). My son pays A$750 per year there for a 6-day "full-time student under-25" membership (it just means he can’t play Saturdays). So I can play mid-week once a month as his guest for A$44 (US$30), and they have a special half-price (A$22) rate after 11 a.m. every Tuesday. We’re going to take advantage of that over the summer holidays. — Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is that a Typo? $235 annual fee? $4.50 US per round? No, it’s not a typo (it’s going up to A$245 for next year). That’s what I pay *all-up*. There is no extra charge per round. If I didn’t participate in the club competitions, it’d be all I’d pay. (Green fee players who are not members pay A$16 (US$11).) Club competitions cost A$3 to enter for the day … for that there are A$20 prize vouchers in three grades … token really … plus a low-priced ball each for the top quarter of the field. Some of the older "retired" brigade play every Thursday, every Saturday, plus they organise their own social competition every Monday. They also play Friday evenings during daylight saving … all for A$235! I reckon that’s around A$1.40 per round! Most of the courses around me have annual fees in the A$230-$300 range. We’re out in the sticks an hour from Melbourne, but that doesn’t mean the courses are total crap. In fact Trentham at present is in really good nick. Will you sponsor my immigration? The queue’s about 18-24 months. You need skills, but golfing unfortunately isn’t one of them. Colin, if you visited me and we played Troon North here in Scottsdale, you’d blow your yearly budget on 18 holes. I realise that. I can play three year’s unlimited golf for the price of *one* round at Pebble Beach. So how much value do you put on quality? BTW, I also play occasionally at Spring Valley where my son is a member. This is a good Melbourne sand-belt course, established in 1952 and designed by Vern Morcom, one of Alister Mackenzie’s Australian "disciples" (http://www.springvalleygolf.com.au). My son pays A$750 per year there for a 6-day "full-time student under-25" membership (it just means he can’t play Saturdays). So I can play mid-week once a month as his guest for A$44 (US$30), and they have a special half-price (A$22) rate after 11 a.m. every Tuesday. We’re going to take advantage of that over the summer holidays. — Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com

What are guest fees?

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BTW–I hope my current jealousy doesn’t have me burn in the bad place.

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What are guest fees?

Spring Valley is a fully private club. You can only play there if you are a member, or if you are accompanying a member (i.e. as a "member’s guest"). If you are a "guest" of a member, you pay a green fee of A$44 (OK … some members might "shout", but someone has to pay it!). I am limited at Spring Valley to playing as a guest once every month (my son can have four guests max. per month). Some competitions (Thursday, Saturday, Sunday) are closed to members only. — Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com

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BTW, I also play occasionally at Spring Valley where my son is a member. This is a good Melbourne sand-belt course,

What exactly does the "sand-belt" reference mean?? Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx Home: http://home.stx.rr.com/dclary RSG Roll Call http://www.rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=claryd

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What exactly does the "sand-belt" reference mean??

It’s a bit of local terminology that maybe some won’t be familiar with. The whole area south-east of Melbourne, from the suburbs close in to the actual city, down to the Mornington Peninsula a hundred or so kilometres away, has a sand base, basically the remnants of old sand-dunes. It is a fine grey sand, in places many metres deep. It’s ideal for golf course construction, because of the natural topography, and the fact that the sand is an ideal medium for growing turf (before suburbanisation there were a lot of market gardens). Also, on a lot of "sand-belt" courses, you don’t even need to bring in sand for bunkers, you just dig the hole! It has given rise to Melbourne being one of the renowned world cities for golf course design. There is a number of traditional private clubs occupying this "sand-belt" which are of the highest quality … Royal Melbourne and Kingston Heath are the two most notable (ranked in the world top 25), but there are a couple of dozen others. There was a big design influence from Alister Mackenzie in the 1920s, before Augusta National, Cypress Point and Pasatiempo were even dreamt of, and other architects have followed Mackenzie’s style. So sand-belt refers not just to the topography but to the high quality of the courses in that region. There are not many *bad* sand-belt courses. — Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://rec-sport-golf.com/members/?rollcall=wilsonc Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Reading through many of the strings in RSG I unspoken choices made when it comes to choosing the golf courses you play. I almost used the words ‘quality’ and ‘quantity’ in the title of this string and I was going to explain that I was actually talking about choosing to play less expensive courses and playing more often, rather than playing more expensive courses and playing more often. Some courses are excellent and relatively affordable. That is the ideal. But for me, and I suspect for many if not most recreational golfers, there are many calculations over the course of a golf season that go something like this: I can play the X course for Y dollars and it is a really nice track and I would love to play there but… there goes my golf budget for the month. My other choice is to play the local muni again and play four times this month. I generally opt for playing more often at the cheaper courses, but I try to sneak in a more expensive course at least once a season. Also, I can play a couple of upscale courses if I play them in March or April (I live near Seattle and technically it is a 12-month golf season) when the greens fees are lower. How about input from others. Do you find yourselves making tough golf choices because of budget? Heck, now that I think about it, my budget choices are not limited to where I play. They affect the clubs I play (same irons 3 – PW since 1987), the bag (same bag since 1985) and so on. I even wait for balls to go on sale and I currently have almost a lifetime supply or Tox Flite XL’s and Molitors because I managed to get a ton for about .47/ball. Joel Grant

This is something I’ve wrestled with in the past. I almost didn’t pay $200 to play at Bandon Dunes, but now I’m very glad I did. The experience far surpassed 4 times I paid $50 at other courses. Sure, I play a lot of cheap golf. I pay $80 a month plus $3 a round at my home course (an executive 9 hole course). I use that mostly to practice. But the larger, pricer courses give me better memories (or nightmares, depending on how I play). I’d like to play Pebble once, but I admit I’m put off by the $380 price. If I pay that much, I’d better be playing well. So I keep putting it off, and the price keeps going up.

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Gold Creek country club in Canberra Australia is A$110 (US$77) per month full playing rights. Being a championship course this is pretty good value. If i play elsewhere it is in tournaments on other great courses around the area, which are generally really cheap and good value and the best way to do it.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some courses are excellent and relatively affordable. That is the ideal. But for me, and I suspect for many if not most recreational golfers, there are many calculations over the course of a golf season that go something like this: I can play the X course for Y dollars and it is a really nice track and I would love to play there but… there goes my golf budget for the month. My other choice is to play the local muni again and play four times this month. I generally opt for playing more often at the cheaper courses, but I try to sneak in a more expensive course at least once a season. Also, I can play a couple of upscale courses if I play them in March or April (I live near Seattle and technically it is a 12-month golf season) when the greens fees are lower. How about input from others. Do you find yourselves making tough golf choices because of budget?

I’m a budget golfer. Sure, I could afford to spend a lot more on the game, but I reach my own point of diminishing returns at about $35 greens fees (i.e. you can find excellent courses that can be played for that amount of money and what’s added by going higher doesn’t do it for me in proportion to the cost. A lot depends on what you want when you play golf. If you really want the "country club experience", with people there to load and unload your clubs, clean them, shine your shoes, etc. you will have to pay for it (and tip all those people on top of it). If you are just looking for a quality course, well maintained, with a reasonable pace of play you can do a lot to keep it affordable. 1) Avoid the "country club for a day" places, where a lot of your greens fees are going to support amenities you may not be interested in. 2) Walk if you can. The cart adds $15-$25/round most places. No value at all to me, in fact it’s less enjoyable. 3) Play weekdays if you can. We play better courses on weekdays, and on the weekends play on our "all the golf you can play for $350" muni course. I figured my average cost per round there was around $3 last year (I’m semi retired and play a lot of weekdays there too). 4) Look for bargains. Yes, lots of courses have early/late season specials. Others have early bird rates, and virtually all have twilight rates that at the right time of year enable you to play 18 for much less. There are also a lot of coupon deals. One a lot of folks use in this area is the "Lung card", which is issued by some lung disease charity and offers discount. The only negative is most of it’s for discounted golf if you rent a cart, so it’s not much good for people who want to walk. 5) Get away from the big city. I live 65 miles from Chicago, and the further from it I go the more likely I am to find a hidden gem at an affordable price. Lots of the country courses don’t have the reputation that the city ones do, but they don’t have the property taxes, labor costs, advertising expenses, or crowds that they do either. All this bargain hunting leaves me perfectly comfortable splurging on rounds in special places. Heck, now that I think about it, my budget choices are not limited to where I play. They affect the clubs I play (same irons 3 – PW since 1987), the bag (same bag since 1985) and so on. I even wait for balls to go on sale and I currently have almost a lifetime supply or Tox Flite XL’s and Molitors because I managed to get a ton for about .47/ball.

Better yet, learn where to find them and pay nothing. I’ve got a couple dozen very new looking ProV1s in the bag. Last week they mowed a lot of the long grass adjoining the second and third holes, and our reward for being first off the tee in the pre-dawn gloom and cold was first crack at the ball bonanza, filling the pockets in the bag in about 2 minutes taking only the recent vintage titleists and calaways. Top flites? Molitors? I leave those for the kids to pick up and sell to some hacker at a quarter a ball Club technology does change, and if your clubs are that old you may want to at least look at what’s on offer. Skip the big brand new this year stuff though unless you like paying more per club than it would cost you to play pebble beach, and check out components, club makers, and second tier brands. — http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery )

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Colin has been posting here for some time and I believe his fees. Look at my post if you don’t want to go as far as the southern hemisphere for rates like that. You do have to get out of the valley of the snowbirds, though on my last trip to Phoenix about 2 years ago in late November, I remember playing twice around an excellent Muni in the southwest side of the city with a guy who was an RSG regular at the time for very little, played a troon golf resort course on a 2-1 card he had for a reasonable fee, and played twice around the 500 club on my own again for a greens fee that didn’t make Mr Visa that unhappy. — http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery )

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The firsttime I went to Maui I had planned to play lots of the great courses there. However, when I got there and realized how many rounds I could play back home for the cost of one round at Kapalua, I balked. I ended up playing crappy Kaanapali at the twilight rate. I regretted that decision for a few years until I went back. That time I played lots of great courses on Maui, Lanai, & Kauai. Of course, Mr. VISA was waiting for me when I got home. Ouch! But I still have the memories (and a few pics) of playing those great courses, long after the Chapter 13 paperwork has been completed.

My first encounter with Hawaiian golf was in 1971, when my father decided to spend our last day on the big island driving up to Mauna Kea to play what then was the top course there. When I looked at the cost and realized it was going to cost $100 I was shocked! Of course that included the rental car, lunch, rental clubs and shoes, and two greens fees. I’ll never forget the day though, especially hitting a long par 3 over the ocean and sinking a rare birdie putt. Years later when I started to go back there with my wife, we opted the first time for a "budget" deal, the Waikoloa Village course on an afternoon special. It met the need of filling an afternoon and being able to say you played in Hawaii, but the course was away from the ocean with many holes lined by condos and nothing all that special. Since then we have splurged on "experience" courses when we go, though we still try to do it economically. (Many of the Hawaiian courses have greatly reduced rates for the second round in a day which you can play on other courses at the resort, while others have discounts you can get in various ways to cut the cost a bit.) The day we went to Lanai to play Manele Bay was great, and cost more than our season passes did back home, but I’m not sure I need to do it again (especially since they were busy building homesites along many holes that will no doubt obscure some of those special views. — http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery )

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is that a Typo? $235 annual fee? $4.50 US per round? Will you sponsor my immigration? Colin, if you visited me and we played Troon North here in Scottsdale, you’d blow your yearly budget on 18 holes. Colin has been posting here for some time and I believe his fees. Look at my post if you don’t want to go as far as the southern hemisphere for rates like that. You do have to get out of the valley of the snowbirds, though on my last trip to Phoenix about 2 years ago in late November, I remember playing twice around an excellent Muni in the southwest side of the city with a guy who was an RSG regular at the time for very little, played a troon golf resort course on a 2-1 card he had for a reasonable fee, and played twice around the 500 club on my own again for a greens fee that didn’t make Mr Visa that unhappy. — http://home.att.net/~wamontgomery )

I’m aware of the local deals–it can be done, but it’s harder when you a) can only play on weekends and are playing in Prime Time b) also have some commitments with the family and cannot drive 1.5 hours each way to play. I’ve got a few places I can play near my home where I can get fairly good deals. I pity the visitors who come here unaware of the rates and are unaware of how to get the better prices. I’ve got a ‘card’ similiar to the Troon Card you guys used. Sounds like yo played with Joseph?

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I’ve opted for the "more golf" solution. The Chicago Park District and the Cook County Forest Preserve have "membership cards" that give you a discount and they run specials every month. Last week they were offering the two best courses in the Forest Preserve system (George Dunne National was the one I got to play) for $14.99 with cart (usual ~$50). The other courses in the system were $9.99. I played 36 holes of pretty good courses for $25 last Wednesday. I get to play 3 times a week during the summer and not go broke. I qualify for Senior Rates in a year or so – can’t wait! :-) I too make a plan to play one of the more pricey suburban courses every year. I also take a "golf tour" – a drive to my family home out in western Nebraska and I play as many golf courses as possible on the way. I’ve had some interesting times on small farm town courses – Curtis, Nebraska’s Arrowhead Meadows comes to mind. 9 holes of beautiful fairways and greens in a creek bottom with mature cottonwoods everywhere. $15 with cart / $400 yearly membership – owned by a bunch of retired farmers in conjunction with the turf majors at the U Nebraska Ag school nearby. Deer, wild turkeys, coyotes, lost balls by the ton! I keep finding good used club bargains and go on trading up at the local used sporting goods places & eBay. Got a set of nearly new Vulcan Golf Z3 Hybrids for $67 and an arm-load of old but good clubs from the basement. I was in heaven. They are so good, I might be stuck with them for a while. Now if I can just find the perfect 3 wood for my swing for under $20 … — Jerry Jerry E. Wesch Chicago

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[snipping almost eveything] Great post. Top flites? Molitors? I leave those for the kids to pick up and sell to some hacker at a quarter a ball

Send those kids my way! ;^) As for having someone haul my clubs around and so on I would be embarrassed and would resist such treatment. There is a very pricey course around here (http://www.seattlegolfguide.com/public/newcast.shtml) that I visited to play their putting course. (It was part of an outing at work) My buddy and I walked into the club house just trying to find where the putting course was, how to get registered, etc. There were three well-dress young ladies behind the counter and as soon as we walked in they obviously pegged us as not rich guys. One of them actually giggled and tried to hide her giggle-face when I asked if this was where we registered to play the putting course. The others visibly rolled their eyes during the entire (but blessedly short) experience. When we left my friend asked if I had also noticed that the kids were obnoxious. Later, a couple other of my co-workers had similar comments. I do not mix well with arrogant rich guys. ;^) Joel Grant

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Well, I grew up in Downers Grove and thousands of years ago I used to play lots of affordable golf in the Chicagoland area. My local course was the 9 hole track in Downers called Belmont. Not sure if it is still there. We used to play a place in DG that had two 18 hole courses called Midwest Country Club. (it was "semi-private" whatever that means) Already by the time I moved away many years ago they had torn it down and put up condos. Lots of great Chicago golf memories, but those winters drove me away. Joel Grant – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I’ve opted for the "more golf" solution. The Chicago Park District and the Cook County Forest Preserve have "membership cards" that give you a discount and they run specials every month. Last week they were offering the two best courses in the Forest Preserve system (George Dunne National was the one I got to play) for $14.99 with cart (usual ~$50). The other courses in the system were $9.99. I played 36 holes of pretty good courses for $25 last Wednesday. I get to play 3 times a week during the summer and not go broke. I qualify for Senior Rates in a year or so – can’t wait! :-) I too make a plan to play one of the more pricey suburban courses every year. I also take a "golf tour" – a drive to my family home out in western Nebraska and I play as many golf courses as possible on the way. I’ve had some interesting times on small farm town courses – Curtis, Nebraska’s Arrowhead Meadows comes to mind. 9 holes of beautiful fairways and greens in a creek bottom with mature cottonwoods everywhere. $15 with cart / $400 yearly membership – owned by a bunch of retired farmers in conjunction with the turf majors at the U Nebraska Ag school nearby. Deer, wild turkeys, coyotes, lost balls by the ton! I keep finding good used club bargains and go on trading up at the local used sporting goods places & eBay. Got a set of nearly new Vulcan Golf Z3 Hybrids for $67 and an arm-load of old but good clubs from the basement. I was in heaven. They are so good, I might be stuck with them for a while. Now if I can just find the perfect 3 wood for my swing for under $20 …

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I think in essence 2 different budgets are being discussed here. You have your recreational golf budget, which decides what you’ll play everyday/week based upon what you want to afford. Then there is the "travel and vacation" budget which will influence how much you’ll pay to play a "destination course". TPC Sawgrass is just up the road. During the summer I can play the stadium course for something like $150. Whether or not I do that will not be a function of how much I’m willing to pay for my weekly 18 at the muni-goat track. In fact, unless TPC drops the price to something in the range of my muni, the two will probably never have anything to do with each other. How much I’m willing to pay to play a course is really more of a function of issues beyond golf. I may be able to "afford" to play a $75 a round place. But I just may not WANT to afford it because of all the other things I want to do in life. My biggest constraint in golf is time, not money. Doesn’t stop me though from looking for a "good deal". The issue then becomes one of what defines a "good deal". At my skill level, a course can only get so good. But it is also true that at some quality level, a course just isn’t any fun, at any price.

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I generally opt for playing more often at the cheaper courses, but I try to sneak in a more expensive course at least once a season. Also, I can play a couple of upscale courses if I play them in March or April (I live near Seattle and technically it is a 12-month golf season) when the greens fees are lower.

I do too, but the expensive courses don’t necessarily offer the best golf. They can offer great views and great service, and are something to talk about – but by doing my homework I can find great golf experiences for much less money.