Question:
What a completely ridiculous thing to say. Gamesmanship or preparing excuse…..please post something meaningful with at least some sort of substance and truth.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Lack of concentration on their part, but more likely trying out some gamesmanship or preparing excuses.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, whatever, your guys blew their big lead. That took more than one hole. Enough said. Yep that just about says it all as far as the US is concerned. The shame is that a brilliant performance by the US golfers was tainted in the same way that the US manages to taint many things. While it is undeniable that US competitors often set the standard as far as achievement is concerned. It is also undeniable that they, in general, lack class and dignity. I except Palmer, Nicklaus and Watson from this. They would never have stooped to celebrating on the green in this way before the match was over.
I don’t know about Palmer and Watson but it’s stretching things a bit to say that Nicklaus was always gracious. In his later years certainly. But he was pretty tight-lipped in victory or defeat in the 60s. Let’s just say he was always "acceptable." I’m sure Tom Watson *wanted* to go nuts from time to time, but I imagine he knew how people would ride him if he did. Still, when he chipped in on the 17th at Pebble Beach, it wasn’t as if he just stood there, was it? As far as a general lack of class and dignity goes, I simply don’t agree with you, and I don’t think you have any real basis upon which to draw a distinction between the US and European players in that regard. There are good, bad, and ugly all around. -joseph
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Well, whatever, your guys blew their big lead. That took more than one hole. Enough said. Yep that just about says it all as far as the US is concerned. The shame is that a brilliant performance by the US golfers was tainted in the same way that the US manages to taint many things.
Well, now, that’s rather nice of you. Try to smear a whole country because your golf team couldn’t find a way to keep from choking. Maybe feeling the American win was "tainted" will help you live with your humiliation. Repeat after me: Any taint at the 1999 Ryder Cup was from a European team that couldn’t manage to win even four out of 12 matches in the final day. I trust that in 2001 the Euros will try to field a more competetive squad. Or at least more knowledgeable "fans". — Don Porter Newspaper Reporter & Webmaster Web Page: http://www.datacruz.com/~dporter
Response:
Are you trying to assert that the celebration after Leonard’s putt HAD NO influence on Jose Maria’s attempt to make that all important putt? You have got to be kidding, if you are making that point.
Hell, it gave Olazabal an extra five minutes to line the damn thing up. Given how slow he and the other Euros were playing all three days, the interruption may have been just what he wanted. At least he had an excuse for backing off. And the European’s have no essential right to be hot that he didn’t get an unfettered ATTEMPT (as per the spirit of the event) to TRY to make a putt to half the Match(es)?
Didn’t get an unfettered attempt? What on earth are you talking about? Did the Yanks tie his arms behind his back before he putted? He had a completely unfettered shot at making the putt. He just missed it. Get over it. — Don Porter Newspaper Reporter & Webmaster Web Page: http://www.datacruz.com/~dporter
Response:
Did you count El Nino’s fist pumps? How about his dances the first two days. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I see that you enjoy judging people. The most obnoxious players throughout this affair were US. Leonard lowered the tone it with his screaming and shouting at colleagues on the first and second day ("you’re the man", or some such nonsense I expect). Lehman was a ridiculous prancing cretin everytime he won a big hole. Man of God ? Hmmm. And Duval was an outright asshole, with his playing up of the crowd when he won his (foregone conclusion) singles match. Twenty double fist pumps, cocking an ear to the crowd. Nice guy, right.
Response:
Lehman was a ridiculous prancing cretin everytime he won a big hole. Man of God ? Hmmm. Don’t blame LEHMAN, blame the "LORD". Tom doesn’t do anything unless the "LORD" tells him to.
Fortunately, this is the USA, not Iraq or PRC, and "men of God" are allowed to celebrate however they please. -joseph
Response:
Joseph, Are you trying to assert that the celebration after Leonard’s putt HAD NO influence on Jose Maria’s attempt to make that all important putt? You have got to be kidding, if you are making that point. And the European’s have no essential right to be hot that he didn’t get an unfettered ATTEMPT (as per the spirit of the event) to TRY to make a putt to half the Match(es)? Patrick Kehoe – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow, what a bunch of Mumbo Jumble. Golf is golf and it is evolving. Swing theories have changed over the years and every swing is unique. Certainly noone thinks Monty has a graet looking swing but does he make it work and can he putt. As far as the Ryder Cup they did plenty of green celebrating when Faldo beat Strange in ‘95, Sour Grapes is what I see, the Europeans did the same thing when they won at the Belfry. I think the group sulk about the celebration greenside at 17 was a bit overdone, and when the Europeans wake up at home in a day or two and read about it in the papers, they’ll realize they were just cheapening the American win and not complaining about something that made any real difference, and I bet they’ll regret it. Especially Jose Maria, who was just about as hot and ungracious in public as I have ever seen him. They weren’t even complaining about something that related to their loss. All they were saying was that they didn’t like the style of the American celebration. I agree with Tom Lehman–they probably should have stayed put and jumped up and down "in place," but what do they want? A polite "golf clap?" After Sergio has been dancing around working the crowd for two days, after Darren Clarke has been making his cave man fist pumps, and after Monty has been drilling putts and giving the galleries the evil eye afterward? Anyway, Jose Maria made a very good run at the putt, better than anyone else (except Justin) that day, and you can’t convince me that the two-time major winner was anything more than annoyed by the celebration. I’m damn sure he was annoyed at losing five holes on the back nine though. Jose Maria is normally a class act, but twice this year–after his poor play at the US Open, and now here at The Country Club– he has lost it. It’s a shame, because I really like the guy and especially have always appreciated the way he conducts himself regardless of the outcome of his play. I’m sure no one on the European team was thinking all that clearly an hour after the loss, but I wish two or three of them had gathered up enough wits to convince Jose Maria not to make a big thing out of it rather than joining in sounding something like a chorus of sore losers from a high school football team. He could have said "I was annoyed at the time but really it didn’t make any difference in the match," and that would have been both gracious and correct. -joseph
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Lehman was a ridiculous prancing cretin everytime he won a big hole. Man of God ? Hmmm.
Don’t blame LEHMAN, blame the "LORD". Tom doesn’t do anything unless the "LORD" tells him to.
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Well, whatever, your guys blew their big lead. That took more than one hole. Enough said.
Yep that just about says it all as far as the US is concerned. The shame is that a brilliant performance by the US golfers was tainted in the same way that the US manages to taint many things. While it is undeniable that US competitors often set the standard as far as achievement is concerned. It is also undeniable that they, in general, lack class and dignity. I except Palmer, Nicklaus and Watson from this. They would never have stooped to celebrating on the green in this way before the match was over. — Phaedrus Before you buy.
Response:
Then it would have looked like everybody was celebrating because Jose missed the putt. Either way you would still be complaining
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, of course not. But swamping the green was not a good thing. If Jose had hit the put first, missed, and then Justin had made the put, pretty much an form of celebration would be expected and accepted. But that was not how it was played out.
Response:
THE EUROPEAN TEAM WITHHELD THEIR CELEBRATION UNTIL AFTER MATCHES HAD BEEN DECIDED THEY DID NOT WALK ACROSS PUTT LINES Surely it would have been both "gracious and correct" for the US team to do the same.
Well, whatever, your guys blew their big lead. That took more than one hole. Enough said. -joseph
Response:
So that’s the way it’s going to be. Our crutch for explaining our loss at Valderama is "the putts just didn’t go in." And yours is going to be "the US danced on the green." Pretty lame if you ask me. -joseph
I see it like this. No one in their right mind is going to say that the celebrations on the 17 th green cost Europe the Ryder Cup. But lets get one thing straight. Nobody – American or European, has EVER behaved like that before the match was finished. I’ve seen celebrations in the past from both sides that could have been considered a bit over the top. But only when the matches were finished. No excuses – the US players should be ashamed of what they did. As for Olazabal, I think he was pretty restrained, given what had happened. On another point, that of heckling by the galleries. I’ve heard heckling by fans of both sides. However, the treatment of Colin Montgomerie was beyond the pale and as for the moron who spat on Mark James wife. I hope this person develops pancreatic cancer. — Phaedrus Before you buy.
Response:
Alan, Are we a bit bitter? No need to answer, we all read your post! Andy
It’s okay, you just have to understand the European Sore Loser viewpoint. (1) When ahead in team matches: Maybe you Americans really aren’t the best players in the world. Ever think about that? (2) When swamped in individual play the next day: You may be better golfers, but you suck. When we lost at Valderama, I was disappointed in our team and our captain, and I didn’t need any European crutch to hang the loss on. Likewise, most European golf fans understand that getting beat 12-1/2 to 3-1/2 involves a lot more than a single putt. But the European press is busy stirring the "Ugly American" pot. Whatever. It appeals to that brain stem mentality that is present worldwide, not just in the USA. -joseph
Response:
I see that you enjoy judging people.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The most obnoxious players throughout this affair were US. Leonard lowered the tone it with his screaming and shouting at colleagues on the first and second day ("you’re the man", or some such nonsense I expect). Lehman was a ridiculous prancing cretin everytime he won a big hole. Man of God ? Hmmm. And Duval was an outright asshole, with his playing up of the crowd when he won his (foregone conclusion) singles match. Twenty double fist pumps, cocking an ear to the crowd. Nice guy, right.
Response:
That would have been gracious but certainly not correct. That celebration on the 17th green by the American team could have lost Europe the cup. That is not a small thing to be dismissed so lightly.
So that’s the way it’s going to be. Our crutch for explaining our loss at Valderama is "the putts just didn’t go in." And yours is going to be "the US danced on the green." Pretty lame if you ask me. -joseph
Response:
Seems you conveniently forgot Monty’s comment after the first day regarding the US Team. Shame you can only remember the ones you want to remember. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …a load of old crap. The most obnoxious players throughout this affair were US. Leonard lowered the tone it with his screaming and shouting at colleagues on the first and second day ("you’re the man", or some such nonsense I expect). Lehman was a ridiculous prancing cretin everytime he won a big hole. Man of God ? Hmmm. And Duval was an outright asshole, with his playing up of the crowd when he won his (foregone conclusion) singles match. Twenty double fist pumps, cocking an ear to the crowd. Nice guy, right. As for the 17th ? Bang out of order, but didn’t affect the result. Leonard’s lucky 30 yarder had already ended it. As for Monty, sure he stared at a low rent crowd, who gave him nothing but abuse and unhelpful comments all the way round. No blame there. And Sergio is a kid. Sure he was excited. He’s a RC rookie and he behaved generally as you would expect for someone of his age and experience thrust into the big event. In short the Europeans behaved well, the americans did not. The crowd did what any american sports crowd would do, but occasionally it was becoming of a football crowd not a golf one. The fair result based on play throughout would have been a draw, and looking at the strength and experience of the two sides that says a hell of a lot more about the quality of the Europeans play than it does the americans. Alan.
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As far as the Ryder Cup they did plenty of green celebrating when Faldo beat Strange in ‘95, Sour Grapes is what I see, the Europeans did the same thing when they won at the Belfry. Get Over It
What fantasy land are you in? The Europeans did not run onto the green before any US player had holed out and they certainly did not run across the line of any putt. They celebrated after Faldo HAD BEATEN Strange – not before – this match continued to the 18th remember Ben Crenshaw had the decency to apologise for this – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
"I was annoyed at the time but really it didn’t make any difference in the match," and that would have been both gracious and correct. -joseph
I mean you are your own worst advocate – your post actually admits that there was something to apologise for – what do you want – to turn tournament and challenge golf into a circus? THE EUROPEAN TEAM WITHHELD THEIR CELEBRATION UNTIL AFTER MATCHES HAD BEEN DECIDED THEY DID NOT WALK ACROSS PUTT LINES Surely it would have been both "gracious and correct" for the US team to do the same. Further, UK television cover showed the US crowd marshalls winding up the crowd with their arms to cheer and shout as the players walked up to the greens – sportsmanship? – my ass! At least Payne Stewart apologised to Montgomery and all the Europeans for the catcalling and heckling European players backed off 17 shots because of noise and crowd interference. Well done to the US players, though, what a fabulous performance
Response:
…a load of old crap. The most obnoxious players throughout this affair were US. Leonard lowered the tone it with his screaming and shouting at colleagues on the first and second day ("you’re the man", or some such nonsense I expect).
He shouted because the crowd was making such a noise. I can’t see a problem with Leonard’s behaviour – even on the 17th. It was no more and no less than the celebrations of several Europeans on Days 1 and 2. Lehman was a ridiculous prancing cretin everytime he won a big hole. Man of God ? Hmmm.
The only player all week who never jumped around at all was Monty (and he was maybe the player who had most to jump about). To pick out Lehman for what is nowadays standard over-exuberance on Ryder Cup Sunday is ridiculous. And Duval was an outright asshole, with his playing up of the crowd when he won his (foregone conclusion) singles match. Twenty double fist pumps, cocking an ear to the crowd. Nice guy, right.
I, as a European, loved to see Duvall getting into it at last. He certainly was not inciting the crowd to make any noise at the wrong time. As for the 17th ? Bang out of order, but didn’t affect the result. Leonard’s lucky 30 yarder had already ended it.
Maybe every putt that’s drained over 20ft or more is lucky and there were plenty of those from the Euuropeans on Friday and Saturday, so to infer that it all came down to one lucky putt is ridiculous. Anyway, Leonard would probably refer you to the old Gary Player adage: "The more I practise, the luckier I get." As for Monty, sure he stared at a low rent crowd, who gave him nothing but abuse and unhelpful comments all the way round. No blame there.
From where I was watching, Monty had plenty of support from the fans. You can’t criticize 100,000 people because of 5 idiots. That’s the population of a large town. A couple of them probably died of natural causes during the week. A couple probably gave birth. A couple had a big win on the lottery. And a couple did the wrong thing at the wrong time. And Sergio is a kid. Sure he was excited. He’s a RC rookie and he behaved generally as you would expect for someone of his age and experience thrust into the big event.
Sergio’s reactions were great. So were Duvall’s and Leonard’s. Nobody got hurt by them. In short the Europeans behaved well, the americans did not. The crowd did what any american sports crowd would do, but occasionally it was becoming of a football crowd not a golf one.
I thought the crowd behaved pretty well, all things considered. The fair result based on play throughout would have been a draw, and looking at the strength and experience of the two sides that says a hell of a lot more about the quality of the Europeans play than it does the americans.
A draw would have been a good result. So would winning the lottery. Stan — Stan The Man +++Naked Under This Macintosh+++ If replying, DELETE X
Response:
…a load of old crap. The most obnoxious players throughout this affair were US. Leonard lowered the tone it with his screaming and shouting at colleagues on the first and second day ("you’re the man", or some such nonsense I expect). Lehman was a ridiculous prancing cretin everytime he won a big hole. Man of God ? Hmmm. And Duval was an outright asshole, with his playing up of the crowd when he won his (foregone conclusion) singles match. Twenty double fist pumps, cocking an ear to the crowd. Nice guy, right. As for the 17th ? Bang out of order, but didn’t affect the result. Leonard’s lucky 30 yarder had already ended it. As for Monty, sure he stared at a low rent crowd, who gave him nothing but abuse and unhelpful comments all the way round. No blame there. And Sergio is a kid. Sure he was excited. He’s a RC rookie and he behaved generally as you would expect for someone of his age and experience thrust into the big event. In short the Europeans behaved well, the americans did not. The crowd did what any american sports crowd would do, but occasionally it was becoming of a football crowd not a golf one. The fair result based on play throughout would have been a draw, and looking at the strength and experience of the two sides that says a hell of a lot more about the quality of the Europeans play than it does the americans. Alan.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – …a load of old crap. The most obnoxious players throughout this affair were US. Leonard lowered the tone it with his screaming and shouting at colleagues on the first and second day ("you’re the man", or some such nonsense I expect). Lehman was a ridiculous prancing cretin everytime he won a big hole. Man of God ? Hmmm. And Duval was an outright asshole, with his playing up of the crowd when he won his (foregone conclusion) singles match. Twenty double fist pumps, cocking an ear to the crowd. Nice guy, right. As for the 17th ? Bang out of order, but didn’t affect the result. Leonard’s lucky 30 yarder had already ended it. As for Monty, sure he stared at a low rent crowd, who gave him nothing but abuse and unhelpful comments all the way round. No blame there. And Sergio is a kid. Sure he was excited. He’s a RC rookie and he behaved generally as you would expect for someone of his age and experience thrust into the big event. In short the Europeans behaved well, the americans did not. The crowd did what any american sports crowd would do, but occasionally it was becoming of a football crowd not a golf one. The fair result based on play throughout would have been a draw, and looking at the strength and experience of the two sides that says a hell of a lot more about the quality of the Europeans play than it does the americans. Alan.
Alan, Are we a bit bitter? No need to answer, we all read your post! Andy
Response:
Certainly LOTS of people think Monty has a great looking swing. Why? Because it is great looking swing. Straight back, straight down. Simple, economical and with great tempo. What is it about it that doesn’t make it look good?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow, what a bunch of Mumbo Jumble. Golf is golf and it is evolving. Swing theories have changed over the years and every swing is unique. Certainly noone thinks Monty has a graet looking swing but does he make it work and can he putt. As far as the Ryder Cup they did plenty of green celebrating when Faldo beat Strange in ‘95, Sour Grapes is what I see, the Europeans did the same thing when they won at the Belfry. Get Over It
Response:
I think the group sulk about the celebration greenside at 17 was a bit overdone, and when the Europeans wake up at home in a day or two and read about it in the papers, they’ll realize they were just cheapening the American win and not complaining about something that made any real difference, and I bet they’ll regret it. Especially Jose Maria, who was just about as hot and ungracious in public as I have ever seen him.
But it may have made a difference of the half point for Europe to retain the cup. They weren’t even complaining about something that related to their loss. All they were saying was that they didn’t like the style of the American celebration. I agree with Tom Lehman–they probably should have stayed put and jumped up and down "in place," but what do they want? A polite "golf clap?"
No, of course not. But swamping the green was not a good thing. If Jose had hit the put first, missed, and then Justin had made the put, pretty much an form of celebration would be expected and accepted. But that was not how it was played out. After Sergio has been dancing around working the crowd for two days, after
Darren Clarke has been making his cave man fist pumps, and after Monty has been drilling putts
and giving the galleries the evil eye afterward? Sergio…just the same as the American players ran around after winning a hole etc. Daren Clarke…come on, what about the fist pump masters of Tiger, Justin, Tom and Hal. Monty…all in response to the crowds (a small portion of them) badgering and insulting him. Anyway, Jose Maria made a very good run at the putt, better than anyone else (except Justin) that day, and you can’t convince me that the two-time major winner was anything more than annoyed by the celebration. I’m damn sure he was annoyed at losing five holes on the back nine though.
Must have been mad at losing five holes. Must have also been mad at a certain fan who swore at him. Jose Maria is normally a class act, but twice this year–after his poor play at the US Open, and now here at The Country Club– he has lost it. It’s a shame, because I really like the guy and especially have always appreciated the way he conducts himself regardless of the outcome of his play. I’m sure no one on the European team was thinking all that clearly an hour after the loss, but I wish two or three of them had gathered up enough wits to convince Jose Maria not to make a big thing out of it rather than joining in sounding something like a chorus of sore losers from a high school football team. He could have said "I was annoyed at the time but really it didn’t make any difference in the match," and that would have been both gracious and correct.
That would have been gracious but certainly not correct. That celebration on the 17th green by the American team could have lost Europe the cup. That is not a small thing to be dismissed so lightly.
Response:
Wow, what a bunch of Mumbo Jumble. Golf is golf and it is evolving. Swing theories have changed over the years and every swing is unique. Certainly noone thinks Monty has a graet looking swing but does he make it work and can he putt. As far as the Ryder Cup they did plenty of green celebrating when Faldo beat Strange in ‘95, Sour Grapes is what I see, the Europeans did the same thing when they won at the Belfry. Get Over It
Response:
Wow, what a bunch of Mumbo Jumble. Golf is golf and it is evolving. Swing theories have changed over the years and every swing is unique. Certainly noone thinks Monty has a graet looking swing but does he make it work and can he putt. As far as the Ryder Cup they did plenty of green celebrating when Faldo beat Strange in ‘95, Sour Grapes is what I see, the Europeans did the same thing when they won at the Belfry.
I think the group sulk about the celebration greenside at 17 was a bit overdone, and when the Europeans wake up at home in a day or two and read about it in the papers, they’ll realize they were just cheapening the American win and not complaining about something that made any real difference, and I bet they’ll regret it. Especially Jose Maria, who was just about as hot and ungracious in public as I have ever seen him. They weren’t even complaining about something that related to their loss. All they were saying was that they didn’t like the style of the American celebration. I agree with Tom Lehman–they probably should have stayed put and jumped up and down "in place," but what do they want? A polite "golf clap?" After Sergio has been dancing around working the crowd for two days, after Darren Clarke has been making his cave man fist pumps, and after Monty has been drilling putts and giving the galleries the evil eye afterward? Anyway, Jose Maria made a very good run at the putt, better than anyone else (except Justin) that day, and you can’t convince me that the two-time major winner was anything more than annoyed by the celebration. I’m damn sure he was annoyed at losing five holes on the back nine though. Jose Maria is normally a class act, but twice this year–after his poor play at the US Open, and now here at The Country Club– he has lost it. It’s a shame, because I really like the guy and especially have always appreciated the way he conducts himself regardless of the outcome of his play. I’m sure no one on the European team was thinking all that clearly an hour after the loss, but I wish two or three of them had gathered up enough wits to convince Jose Maria not to make a big thing out of it rather than joining in sounding something like a chorus of sore losers from a high school football team. He could have said "I was annoyed at the time but really it didn’t make any difference in the match," and that would have been both gracious and correct. -joseph