Question:
There already is 2 sets of rules. R&A says ERC is legal, USGA says it’s not. Do those who play by USGA rules say those who play by R&A rules are playing psuedo-golf?
Geographic variations to the Rules of Golf occur everywhere. Every course has its own Local Rules (within the limits imposed by the USGA or the R&A) to cater for various conditions. They differ from course to course. Also Australia, for instance, where it is applicable, has a set of Rules for sand greens, which includes a method of marking the ball that would be illegal under normal Rules (scratching two lines in the sand before smoothing). So I don’t see a problem with playing to two different Rules for the spring-like effect in two large geographic regions! BTW, in regard to the ERC and similar drivers, did you know that the USGA and R&A Rules are almost exactly the same? Both sets of Rules actually say the clubface should not have the effect of a spring. The only difference is the tiny phrase "test on file" in brackets. Basically all that means is that the USGA applies a conformance test for the spring-like effect, whereas the R&A doesn’t. And as far as the spring-like effect is concerned, if distance is your thing, we don’t play pseudo-golf, we play macho-golf. 
Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
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Recreational golf is an unusual animal. As previously stated, rules or lack there of can an do vary widely. Each group or region finding an agreeable set of rules with one purpose in mind. To have fun. {:-D Isn’t that what a game is supposed to be? I’ve played with the pro "wantabes" as well as the "fun bunch" and have enjoyed the game with both. As for the driver dispute, I think that if the USGA would recant the situation would take care of itself. I have an ERC among several drivers and I don’t see the great advantage. In fact, it will never bump the 975 from my bag because to me it just isn’t as good.
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<some snippage – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know that most of the people I see or play golf with do not play by the rules of golf (mulligans, giving each other putts, etc). But I do not think that even two sets of rules (one for the traditionalist and one for the recreational golfer) would even work as suggested by Callaway and Palmer. It seems every foursome that I have played in or seen has their own little set of rules that seem to vary from foursome to foursome. And I personally do not care what others in my foursome do (well, I would hope they don’t step on my line, hehehe)! They can do what they like (and call it pseudo-golf), but I will opt to play, to the best of my ability, by the rules of golf as laid out by the USGA/R&A. Otherwise, if for any one reason, how can one track one’s progress in the quest to get better. Oh well, I think I have said enough. Hit ‘em Good!!! JB
There already is 2 sets of rules. R&A says ERC is legal, USGA says it’s not. Do those who play by USGA rules say those who play by R&A rules are playing psuedo-golf?
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A "rub of the green" is when a ball strikes an inanimate object or outside agency when in motion. For example, what happened to Andrew Magee’s ball on its way into the hole at #17 yesterday. So a ball bouncing off a sprinkler head into the hole, or out of bounds, is a "rub of the green." But a ball coming to rest in a heel print in a bunker is not, nor is a ball deflecting off a spike mark. Most people use the term too broadly (even on television).
Please explain the difference. Have always thought "rub of the green" described a ball that comes to rest in any odd way (whether it’s advantageous or disadvantageous, lucky or not). — "For every journey there’s a point beyond which it makes no sense to turn back. That point is your destination." — Kafka. ——- homepage: http://www.depaul.edu/~dsimpson
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s called the rub of the green, I believe. I won’t question the fact that you have beliefs, but in this case what you believe is incorrect. OK, I’ll bite! Why? A "rub of the green" is when a ball strikes an inanimate object or outside agency when in motion. For example, what happened to Andrew Magee’s ball on its way into the hole at #17 yesterday. So a ball bouncing off a sprinkler head into the hole, or out of bounds, is a "rub of the green." But a ball coming to rest in a heel print in a bunker is not, nor is a ball deflecting off a spike mark. Most people use the term too broadly (even on television). -joseph
OK! You are, of course, correct. I guess that what I was trying to convey, in my previous examples, that sometimes "stuff happens". Hit ‘em Good!!! JB
Response:
Please explain the difference. Have always thought "rub of the green" described a ball that comes to rest in any odd way (whether it’s advantageous or disadvantageous, lucky or not).
I did describe the difference. Here it is again. "Rub of the green" is when a ball strikes an inanimate object or outside agency when in motion. It is played where it comes to rest. But many people use the term the way suggest. Incorrectly. It is not a "rub of the green" when your ball is in a footprint, but it is a "rub of the green" if it bounced off a cartpath or a playing partner’s head on its way there. -joseph
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It’s called the rub of the green, I believe. I won’t question the fact that you have beliefs, but in this case what you believe is incorrect. -joseph
OK, I’ll bite! Why? Hit ‘em Good!!! JB
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It’s called the rub of the green, I believe. I won’t question the fact that you have beliefs, but in this case what you believe is incorrect. OK, I’ll bite! Why?
A "rub of the green" is when a ball strikes an inanimate object or outside agency when in motion. For example, what happened to Andrew Magee’s ball on its way into the hole at #17 yesterday. So a ball bouncing off a sprinkler head into the hole, or out of bounds, is a "rub of the green." But a ball coming to rest in a heel print in a bunker is not, nor is a ball deflecting off a spike mark. Most people use the term too broadly (even on television). -joseph
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It’s called the rub of the green, I believe.
I won’t question the fact that you have beliefs, but in this case what you believe is incorrect. -joseph
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[...] The average golfer can use forward tees.
Sure, and we can all drive below the speed limit too. Have you ever been on a golf course? -joseph
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I thought there was a time when the USGA was drifting away or maybe even paddling determinedly away from its heritage, which is of course elitist racist aristocracy. But maybe there never really was such a time. Or if there was such a time it was during the 1960s when an actual regular human being was King, Pebble Beach was about $20 to play, and you could putt to an unattended flagstick. But Fay and his nasal-voiced blueblood compatriots have let go the tiller and the ship is on course back toward The Way Things Have Always Been, which means that the USGA will still play its "Open" mostly at courses that are anything but open, clubs will be made however David Fay and white old money thinks they should be made, it will be legal to carry a book describing yardage from every point on the course to every other point on the course but not to carry a laser rangefinder, and you will not putt to an unattended flagstick even if you are playing as a single, and if you do it anyway and hit the stick you will record the two stroke penalty for your handicap, which will probably not amuse your gambling buddies. I have no idea why I paid USGA dues last year, because everything I’ve heard and seen since then from the USGA has been 180 degrees from what makes sense to me. -joseph – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did anyone else catch the equipment special last night on TGC featuring Ely Callaway (Callaway Golf), David Fay (USGA) and host Adam Barr (legal for TGC)? Ely had droned on and on and on about how the R&A allows it (ERC II) and the USGA does not, we are only making the game easier for the recreational golfer, yada yada yada. This lame attempt by Ely to justify the existence of the ERC II driver made me think that Arnold Palmer *must* have gotten all his ideas about the virtues of this club from the man himself.
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Seriously, then do you think anyone (or group) should (or have the right to) take the responsibility of creating/maintaining the rules of conduct for a game/sport?! Yes, I think that overall they do a decent job of writing/interpreting the rules. Their handicapping system has some flaws, but it works about as well as it probably could. Now that’s about as much praise as I’m prepared to lay out for the USGA. Having said that, I think that they are out of touch with the majority of people who play the game. They are still a very elitist organization. They just can’t shake their country-club mentality. It’s all they know.
I agree with you on this point. Sometimes, I think the upper management of the organization is stuck in the ’90s….the 1890’s, that is. They really need to get some new blood in there who are more in tune with today’s golf problems/solutions. I can think of a few changes I’d like to see in both the rules and the handicapping system is I were in charge. Allowing range finders all the time would be the first thing I’d change. It makes no sense to allow them in "normal" play but not in "Tournament" play. It equalizes the playing field for someone who is unfamiliar with the course, and it speeds up play. I see no down side to this.
I own a range finder (for the range and practice rounds) and I would occasionally use it during a normal round. Does it speed up play overall or help with one’s score – I think (IMHO) the jury is still out on that one. For me personally, If my range finder gives me 167 yards to clear a water hazard, I still 1) need to hit that shot, range finder assisted or not and 2) My iron play is not that accurate to dial up 167 yards consistently (It could go 150 yards or 175 yards or 5 yards, hehehe). Second, I’d change the spike mark rule, especially at spikeless facilities. It galls me to go spikeless and still see spike marks on the green. The one guy wearing spikes didn’t have to putt thru them, why should I?
It’s called the rub of the green, I believe. What is your feeling on unraked sand traps? ball in a divot? sprinkler heads deflecting a drive? My feeling on spike marks is that unless you are Brad Faxon (or insert your favorite good putter here), a spike mark may direct my ball into a hole on a bad stroke. It would also reduce the blatant cheating on Tour.
Cheating on the Tour?!!! Does John Daly know about this,hehehe? 
Ever notice how many guys fix "ball marks" near the hole when there hasn’t been a ball hit there all day? And I’m not just talking about Mark CuCumber either.
Personally, I think golf touring pros are the biggest cry babies out there. Oh the sand is too soft, Oh the greens are unfair, yada, yada, yada. I would love, for once, to see the pros play a ratty local muni and see how they would fare! Also, I’d allow scores to be posted via the Internet. The whole concept of "peer review" is a joke. Allowing Internet posting would get more people to post their scores which is the goal of the handicap system anyway. It only works if everyone posts their scores.
Agreed!!! The USGA, IMHO, has serious handicap problems (especially with regards to peer review). Also, I suppose one could peer review Internet scores as well. Lastly, I’d replace that skinny Kendra Graham and name Cheryl Ladd as new USGA Director of Rules and Assistant to the Czar. Any questions?
What?! No Kendra Graham? What do you have against her (besides being skinny)? Hehehehe. I would like to see someone a little younger than Ms. Ladd (unless one is over 40 years old,hehehe). Hit ‘em Good!!! JB
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Cheryl Ladd? Hmmmmmm! (and after all your admiration for TW!) Methinks Annika is sounding more and more like a he! Jerry – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Seriously, then do you think anyone (or group) should (or have the right to) take the responsibility of creating/maintaining the rules of conduct for a game/sport?! Yes, I think that overall they do a decent job of writing/interpreting the rules. Their handicapping system has some flaws, but it works about as well as it probably could. Now that’s about as much praise as I’m prepared to lay out for the USGA. Having said that, I think that they are out of touch with the majority of people who play the game. They are still a very elitist organization. They just can’t shake their country-club mentality. It’s all they know. I can think of a few changes I’d like to see in both the rules and the handicapping system is I were in charge. Allowing range finders all the time would be the first thing I’d change. It makes no sense to allow them in "normal" play but not in "Tournament" play. It equalizes the playing field for someone who is unfamiliar with the course, and it speeds up play. I see no down side to this. Second, I’d change the spike mark rule, especially at spikeless facilities. It galls me to go spikeless and still see spike marks on the green. The one guy wearing spikes didn’t have to putt thru them, why should I? It would also reduce the blatant cheating on Tour. Ever notice how many guys fix "ball marks" near the hole when there hasn’t been a ball hit there all day? And I’m not just talkin about Mark CuCumber either. Also, I’d allow scores to be posted via the Internet. The whole concept of "peer review" is a joke. Allowing Internet posting would get more people to post their scores which is the goal of the handicap system anyway. It only works if everyone posts their scores. Lastly, I’d replace that skinny Kendra Graham and name Cheryl Ladd as new USGA Director of Rules and Assistant to the Czar. Any questions?
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Agreed — – Matt Aamold – Charter Member, RSG Clique – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am really glad I got rid of all my Callaway equipment…. Hit ‘em Good!!! JB
Response:
Seems to me Callaway’s major point was to give the golfer more distance off the tee. The rules of golf have already dealt with this and that’s why there are various tees on each hole. The average golfer can use forward tees. Dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ely (and by extension, Callaway Golf) is in the golf business to make money and to only make money. They seem not to be too concerned about golf traditions or the rules of golf. Perhaps if Callaway Golf is so concerned with money, they should get out of the golf business and perhaps make tennis rackets or skiing equipment instead. Bravo. Someone who gets it! One thing I did find assuming last night. Towards the end of the show, I thought I saw Adam Barr’s eyeballs roll when Ely was imparting yet another pearl of wisdom upon the TCG masses. I am really glad I got rid of all my Callaway equipment…. Congratulations. That company is a disaster for the game.
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It’s obvious that the USGA still thinks they own the game. Hmmmmm….but don’t they? They are the de facto ruling body of golf in the U.S.? They no more own golf than the NTSB owns your car.
I think the bank owns my car, thanks for asking… Seriously, then do you think anyone (or group) should (or have the right to) take the responsibility of creating/maintaining the rules of conduct for a game/sport?! If the USGA did not exist, then there would most likely be a group just like it. Well, unless FOX sports gets to call the shots and called it Xtreme Golf (shudder! ). Hit ‘em Good!!! JB
Response:
Seriously, then do you think anyone (or group) should (or have the right to) take the responsibility of creating/maintaining the rules of conduct for a game/sport?!
Yes, I think that overall they do a decent job of writing/interpreting the rules. Their handicapping system has some flaws, but it works about as well as it probably could. Now that’s about as much praise as I’m prepared to lay out for the USGA. Having said that, I think that they are out of touch with the majority of people who play the game. They are still a very elitist organization. They just can’t shake their country-club mentality. It’s all they know. I can think of a few changes I’d like to see in both the rules and the handicapping system is I were in charge. Allowing range finders all the time would be the first thing I’d change. It makes no sense to allow them in "normal" play but not in "Tournament" play. It equalizes the playing field for someone who is unfamiliar with the course, and it speeds up play. I see no down side to this. Second, I’d change the spike mark rule, especially at spikeless facilities. It galls me to go spikeless and still see spike marks on the green. The one guy wearing spikes didn’t have to putt thru them, why should I? It would also reduce the blatant cheating on Tour. Ever notice how many guys fix "ball marks" near the hole when there hasn’t been a ball hit there all day? And I’m not just talkin about Mark CuCumber either. Also, I’d allow scores to be posted via the Internet. The whole concept of "peer review" is a joke. Allowing Internet posting would get more people to post their scores which is the goal of the handicap system anyway. It only works if everyone posts their scores. Lastly, I’d replace that skinny Kendra Graham and name Cheryl Ladd as new USGA Director of Rules and Assistant to the Czar. Any questions?
Response:
Say what you will about ‘ol Ely but I’m glad there is something called the Hawkeye around. It does make the game more enjoyable for mid to high handicappers like myself. It probably wouldn’t be around if innovation were suppressed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did anyone else catch the equipment special last night on TGC featuring Ely Callaway (Callaway Golf), David Fay (USGA) and host Adam Barr (legal for TGC)? I’m watching it right now on TGC’s web site. I don’t know which was more sickening …. watching old Ely sell his snake oil or watching the smug, David Fay do his little power play. It’s obvious that the USGA still thinks they own the game.
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It’s obvious that the USGA still thinks they own the game. Hmmmmm….but don’t they? They are the de facto ruling body of golf in the U.S.?
They no more own golf than the NTSB owns your car.
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Ely (and by extension, Callaway Golf) is in the golf business to make money and to only make money. They seem not to be too concerned about golf traditions or the rules of golf. Perhaps if Callaway Golf is so concerned with money, they should get out of the golf business and perhaps make tennis rackets or skiing equipment instead. Bravo. Someone who gets it!
Hey!!! Someone agrees with me! I guess even a blind man will hit the hammer on the head once in awhile, hehehehe. One thing I did find amusing last night. Towards the end of the show, I thought I saw Adam Barr’s eyeballs roll when Ely was imparting yet another pearl of wisdom upon the TCG masses. I am really glad I got rid of all my Callaway equipment…. Congratulations. That company is a disaster for the game.
Thanks! There are some other points I would like to mention. In watching TGC last night, I had thought David Fay came across as a blue blood elitist. But on the other hand, Ely Callaway definitely came across as a greedy old man making all these ultimatums to golf’s governing bodies. A real turn-off,IMHO. Ely really should step down as the head of Callaway Golf and get some fresh, sensible minds at the helm. I know that most of the people I see or play golf with do not play by the rules of golf (mulligans, giving each other putts, etc). But I do not think that even two sets of rules (one for the traditionalist and one for the recreational golfer) would even work as suggested by Callaway and Palmer. It seems every foursome that I have played in or seen has their own little set of rules that seem to vary from foursome to foursome. And I personally do not care what others in my foursome do (well, I would hope they don’t step on my line, hehehe)! They can do what they like (and call it pseudo-golf), but I will opt to play, to the best of my ability, by the rules of golf as laid out by the USGA/R&A. Otherwise, if for any one reason, how can one track one’s progress in the quest to get better. Oh well, I think I have said enough. Hit ‘em Good!!! JB
Response:
Did anyone else catch the equipment special last night on TGC featuring Ely Callaway (Callaway Golf), David Fay (USGA) and host Adam Barr (legal for TGC)? I’m watching it right now on TGC’s web site. I don’t know which was more sickening …. watching old Ely sell his snake oil or watching the smug, David Fay do his little power play. It’s obvious that the USGA still thinks they own the game.
Hmmmmm….but don’t they? They are the de facto ruling body of golf in the U.S.? Hit ‘em Good!!! JB
Response:
Ely (and by extension, Callaway Golf) is in the golf business to make money and to only make money. They seem not to be too concerned about golf traditions or the rules of golf. Perhaps if Callaway Golf is so concerned with money, they should get out of the golf business and perhaps make tennis rackets or skiing equipment instead.
Bravo. Someone who gets it! One thing I did find assuming last night. Towards the end of the show, I thought I saw Adam Barr’s eyeballs roll when Ely was imparting yet another pearl of wisdom upon the TCG masses. I am really glad I got rid of all my Callaway equipment….
Congratulations. That company is a disaster for the game.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Did anyone else catch the equipment special last night on TGC featuring Ely Callaway (Callaway Golf), David Fay (USGA) and host Adam Barr (legal for TGC)? Ely had droned on and on and on about how the R&A allows it (ERC II) and the USGA does not, we are only making the game easier for the recreational golfer, yada yada yada. This lame attempt by Ely to justify the existence of the ERC II driver made me think that Arnold Palmer *must* have gotten all his ideas about the virtues of this club from the man himself. Ely (and by extension, Callaway Golf) is in the golf business to make money and to only make money. They seem not to be too concerned about golf traditions or the rules of golf. Perhaps if Callaway Golf is so concerned with money, they should get out of the golf business and perhaps make tennis rackets or skiing equipment instead. One thing I did find assuming last night. Towards the end of the
OOPS! I meant amusing. Me Bad! show, I thought I saw Adam Barr’s eyeballs roll when Ely was imparting yet another pearl of wisdom upon the TCG masses. I am really glad I got rid of all my Callaway equipment…. Disclaimer: This is all IMHO. Hit ‘em Good!!! JB
Hit ‘em Good!!! JB
Response:
Did anyone else catch the equipment special last night on TGC featuring Ely Callaway (Callaway Golf), David Fay (USGA) and host Adam Barr (legal for TGC)?
I’m watching it right now on TGC’s web site. I don’t know which was more sickening …. watching old Ely sell his snake oil or watching the smug, David Fay do his little power play. It’s obvious that the USGA still thinks they own the game.
Response:
Did anyone else catch the equipment special last night on TGC featuring Ely Callaway (Callaway Golf), David Fay (USGA) and host Adam Barr (legal for TGC)? Ely had droned on and on and on about how the R&A allows it (ERC II) and the USGA does not, we are only making the game easier for the recreational golfer, yada yada yada. This lame attempt by Ely to justify the existence of the ERC II driver made me think that Arnold Palmer *must* have gotten all his ideas about the virtues of this club from the man himself. Ely (and by extension, Callaway Golf) is in the golf business to make money and to only make money. They seem not to be too concerned about golf traditions or the rules of golf. Perhaps if Callaway Golf is so concerned with money, they should get out of the golf business and perhaps make tennis rackets or skiing equipment instead. One thing I did find assuming last night. Towards the end of the show, I thought I saw Adam Barr’s eyeballs roll when Ely was imparting yet another pearl of wisdom upon the TCG masses. I am really glad I got rid of all my Callaway equipment…. Disclaimer: This is all IMHO. Hit ‘em Good!!! JB