Question:
Outright forgerys seem to be pretty rare…Their bigger and harder to hide than Rolexs I guess…]]]Z[[[ But is that not exactly what you suggest when you say that the exact foundry molds are being reused by the foundry???
Well... I don't know about golf clubs... but let me tell you about smallish portable air compressors. I bought a small one that I could take up on the roof to power an air nail gun. I paid something like $125 for it. I have seen the exact (and I mean exact) same unit painted various other colors and sporting different brand names selling for various prices. The highest said Makita on it and was $300-$400. I think you will often find the same thing in car batteries. They are all made by only a few manufacturers. You might find the exact same battery (if you knew how to identify it) selling under various names for widely varying prices. A starter motor for a 350 CID GM boat engine doesn't cost anymore to produce than a starter motor for a 350 CID GM truck engine. They are almost identical and made by the same people. Yet the boat version will cost at least 2x more. It's not totally out of the question to imagine something similar happening behind the scenes in the golf industry. But I can't say I've seen it yet. dsc - acssysdsc
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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - I just love to see the guys pull up to the first tee with over $1000 worth of equipment and a $1.59 swing. $1000 really isn't much these days when you consider name brand drivers are generally $300-$500 for the latest and greatest. the ridiculously priced scotty cameron putters are what $200-$300. a set of name brand irons is usually $600-$900. Fact is, for 99% of the golfing public it doesnt make a rats ass difference, because their swings are so out of tolerance. very good point that so few fail to see.
I don't care who you are... the better your equipmpent is and the better it fits, the better you should play. Doesn't mean equipment will turn you from a 15 handicap to scratch golfer, but maybe it will turn you into a 14.5 handicap. There are alot of variables in the game of golf. Some of them are difficult to do anything about. Poor equipment (fit or quality) is one variable you can do something about. If I hit a bad shot I don't want to wonder... was it me or the club. The only way I can do that is to play with good equipment. dsc - acssysdsc
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Nope...not stolen molds...and no crime involved...The Foundry contracts allow them to retain ownership of molds and to produce "Off Brand" copys at will... No offense, but I think that is bull. Please give an example of this kind of contract!! Well John...Details are normally a private matter...I think "Golden Bears" (not to touchy to mention) are a good example.
Sorry, I still don't believe it. Besides, many of the clubs have patents. How do they get around them? Patents make good advertising, but they have little effect on limiting production of golf clubs...A 10% change is all that's required by law.
This is rot. Where did you get the "10%" change from??? No, it is not that simple at all. One of my best friends is a civil court judge. Again, you're saying that the exact mold is reused by the factory without any problems. Call me an unbeliever!!!!! Seen anybody paying PING royaltys on all the cavity back clubs now in production...? They are illegal clubs if they do what you suggest. Outright forgerys seem to be pretty rare...Their bigger and harder to hide than Rolexs I guess...]]]Z[[[
But is that not exactly what you suggest when you say that the exact foundry molds are being reused by the foundry??? John Baima Silver Shot Custom Clubs www.silvershot.com DFW Golf and the Java Swingweight Calculator
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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - My clubmaker weight-sorts heads, and batch-sorts shafts for frequency cycles. This is an excellent way of making sure swingweights and flex have a constant curve through the set. Interesting isn't it, how club building passed from individual craftsmen to the mass marketers and is now returning to the hands of skilled artisans. I don't know that you really need to be a "skilled artisan" to weight sort heads. Given a range of +/-2g ... put the light ones in one stack, the middle ones in another and the heavy ones in another again (two grams is only about one swingweight point). What it does need is attention to detail, a little time and a little care.
It seems that most "custom club builders" are small scale. About the only way they could sort this way would be to only offer one particular club head. There is no other way they could ever have enough of any one model on hand to sort. Instead they are more likely to make adjustments with lead powder or tape. Since they can only add weight with this method, they are a bit limited in what they can do. dsc - acssysdsc
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I bet most of the larger OEM's sell the design of the clubhead. This probaly soaks up some of the money spent on designing and making the molds for the golf clubs.
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I bet most of the larger OEM's sell the design of the clubhead. This probaly soaks up some of the money spent on designing and making the molds for the golf clubs.
Welcome to the real world... Reading a few of the recent threads I notice that we have a lot of RSGers who think GOLF BOOKS are written to help them improve their game...DOH... ]]]Z[[[
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It seems that most "custom club builders" are small scale.
This is true. Mine's not exactly (five stores). About the only way they could sort this way would be to only offer one particular club head. There is no other way they could ever have enough of any one model on hand to sort.
Or have enough volume. You're only talking about maybe ten or so sets (?). The difference between +2 and -4g (normal club manufacturing tolerance) is three swingweight points. That's perceptible, maybe not to every golfer. Dave Tutelman says two swingweight points is the limit of normal feel. Instead they are more likely to make adjustments with lead powder or tape. Since they can only add weight with this method, they are a bit limited in what they can do.
Or shaft tip weights? Not sure any of these methods aren't legitimate. Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call - http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm Visit one of Australia's best club web sites: Trentham Golf Club - http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham
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My clubmaker weight-sorts heads, and batch-sorts shafts for frequency cycles. This is an excellent way of making sure swingweights and flex have a constant curve through the set.
Interesting isn't it, how club building passed from individual craftsmen to the mass marketers and is now returning to the hands of skilled artisians. ]]]Z[[[
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I just love to see the guys pull up to the first tee with over $1000 worth of equipment and a $1.59 swing.
$1000 really isn't much these days when you consider name brand drivers are generally $300-$500 for the latest and greatest. the ridiculously priced scotty cameron putters are what $200-$300. a set of name brand irons is usually $600-$900. Fact is, for 99% of the golfing public it doesnt make a rats ass difference, because their swings are so out of tolerance.
very good point that so few fail to see. charlie Before you buy.
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Many brand name clubs do not check the weights or angles on their clubs all that rigourously. In most cases a custom club maker, using clones, will make clubs that range from a little worse than any name brand to a lot better than a name brand. It all depends on how much effort they put into making sure that all of the clubs meet the proper specs and how closely they pay attention to fitting you with the proper shaft, swingweight and length.
Exactly. My clubmaker weight-sorts heads, and batch-sorts shafts for frequency cycles. This is an excellent way of making sure swingweights and flex have a constant curve through the set. Weight sorting of heads can further narrow manufacturing tolerances, while batch sorting of shafts for frequency can overcome fairly wide differences, even in less expensive sheet-wrapped shafts. I bet you don't get that with many OEM brands. Then again many golfers won't appreciate the difference, and you have to have a reasonable volume as a clubfitter to be able to do it. Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call - http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm Visit one of Australia's best club web sites: Trentham Golf Club - http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham
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My clubmaker weight-sorts heads, and batch-sorts shafts for frequency cycles. This is an excellent way of making sure swingweights and flex have a constant curve through the set. Interesting isn't it, how club building passed from individual craftsmen to the mass marketers and is now returning to the hands of skilled artisans.
I don't know that you really need to be a "skilled artisan" to weight sort heads. Given a range of +/-2g ... put the light ones in one stack, the middle ones in another and the heavy ones in another again (two grams is only about one swingweight point). What it does need is attention to detail, a little time and a little care. Cheers Colin Wilson RSG Roll Call - http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wilsonc.htm Visit one of Australia's best club web sites: Trentham Golf Club - http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/trentham
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Nope...not stolen molds...and no crime involved...The Foundry contracts allow them to retain ownership of molds and to produce "Off Brand" copys at will... No offense, but I think that is bull. Please give an example of this kind of contract!!
Well John...Details are normally a private matter...I think "Golden Bears" (not to touchy to mention) are a good example. I've seen such contracts, it's a good way to cut down on the cost of production...As the markets for NAME BRANDS and Clones are pretty well seperated anyway... No company would sign such a contract.
OH NO...of course not..(G)BTW check out where your Lowenbrau is being brewed... Where the Volkswagen Bug is (Still) being made... Or if you're into guns, look up a compamy called NORINCO. Besides, many of the clubs have patents. How do they get around them?
Patents make good advertising, but they have little effect on limiting production of golf clubs...A 10% change is all that's required by law.Seen anybody paying PING royaltys on all the cavity back clubs now in production...? They are illegal clubs if they do what you suggest.
Outright forgerys seem to be pretty rare...Their bigger and harder to hide than Rolexs I guess...]]]Z[[[
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I just love to see the guys pull up to the first tee with over $1000 worth of equipment and a $1.59 swing. Fact is, for 99% of the golfing public it doesnt make a rats ass difference, because their swings are so out of tolerance. lob
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Besides, if you're considering the clones that are made from stolen molds, then how could you believe what's in 'em if they're already made by thieves? Nope...not stolen molds...and no crime involved...The Foundry contracts allow them to retain ownership of molds and to produce "Off Brand" copys at will...
No offense, but I think that is bull. Please give an example of this kind of contract!! No company would sign such a contract. Besides, many of the clubs have patents. How do they get around them? They don't. They are illegal clubs if they do what you suggest. John Baima Silver Shot Custom Clubs www.silvershot.com DFW Golf and the Java Swingweight Calculator
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As for weight that's another matter all together. Standard weights very from +/-5 grams (meaning you could have a 5 and 6 iron that weigh exactly the same) from the stated weight. Really good manufacturers typically can guarantee +2/-4 grams from the stated weight, but that is not typical.
For the Penick and Snake Eyes heads, they guarantee of +2/-2 John Baima Silver Shot Custom Clubs www.silvershot.com DFW Golf and the Java Swingweight Calculator
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I just love to see the guys pull up to the first tee with over $1000 worth of equipment and a $1.59 swing. Fact is, for 99% of the golfing public it doesnt make a rats ass difference, because their swings are so out of tolerance.
Yeah...!!! How dare they enjoy themselves anyway...? ]]]Z[[[
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Less money, doesn't necessarily mean lower quality.
You got that right... I would suggest checking out the tour quality clubs that are custom-fitted at chipshot.com. They have a 30 day guarantee and a 1 year warranty on their clubs.
Unfortunately...what they call custom building is a joke... Fittings are done "By the Chart" ie: if you are over 6' you NEED 1*up Or under 5'5" you NEED 2* flat...This is as bogus as it gets... Flex is determined by "HOW FAR" you currently hit the ball... If your presently stuck with poorly fit clubs your NEW ones will be based on the lack of distance old ones produce...Sounds great doesn't it? Take a look at their "How we build clubs" pictorial and you'll note they don't prepare their hossels at all (coning, deburring) neither to they check clubs for swingweight tolerances...(so obviously they don't correct any defects or provide any swingweight options to the customer.) I could go on, but I think I've made my point. In short they provide the ILLUSION of buying custom built clubs, and have no real quality control at all...You can call it TOUR QUALITY all day long but that's just another bad joke... BTW...do they PAY you to shill for them...or is that someone else I see spaming the NG on their behalf all the time...? ]]]Z[[[
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Remember two things with choosing the quality of a club: Quality of materials and precision of manufacture. Good points... When you buy knockoffs you're getting a cheaper (weaker) steel, But that's just not true...the same alloys are used in Clones as in Brand Names...Many are manufactured in the same Tiwanese Foundrys... I don't buy it. Take for example the Ping clubs - they use heat treatments (after molding) to change the crystalline structure of the metal for optimum strength.
Pings are a well known exception to industry standards. Not only in theirmanufacturing and quality control, but in their customer policys too. Besides, if you're considering the clones that are made from stolen molds, then how could you believe what's in 'em if they're already made by thieves?
Nope...not stolen molds...and no crime involved...The Foundry contracts allow them to retain ownership of molds and to produce "Off Brand" copys at will... the thread was asking about Callaways, I'll agree that the quality / precision just ain't so hot as say, Titleist.
Titleist is better than many manufacturers, I agree...But their standards are not nearly as high as those of a quality custom clone builder. Other "Name Brands" do little more than add the stickers to the clubs they sell... My point is that WHICH name is stamped on it (legally of course), does tell you a lot. If it's a Titleist or a Ping, then you know you have a good product. If you have a knockoff, you don't have the faintest clue what's in it.
Not from just looking at the raw club...Agreed...But you do often have the name address and phone # of the guy who BUILT IT... Neither do you get the excellent customer service and product support that SOME manufacturers offer...OTOH you have biggies like Spalding and Taylormade that won't even sell you a grip. It's a simple fact that advertising, endorsements, and "Executive" marketing strategies, pump the prices of Name Brand Clubs up way beyond their actual value. Buying or building Clones is one of the few sensible alternatives... That's why I don't buy the highly advertised stuff, myself. Never pay full price 
And that's a good alternative too... I don't reccomend everybody rush out and buy the cheapest knockoffs they can find on the internet...But there is nothing intrensically WRONG with clone clubs...If you take care to get them properly fitted by a builder who warrantys his work, you will wind up with superior clubs at great savings... ]]]Z[[[
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Here's the deal on clones. There are good and bad foundries that make golf clubs. The good foundries (ie the ones that produce most of the name brand clubs and the better clones) have tighter manufacturing processes, whether it be for a clone or a name brand. The tolerances for loft and lie and weight are more closely regulated. Consider that for loft and lie angles most all clubs (clones or name brands) are within 1*-2* of the stated loft lie. As for weight that's another matter all together. Standard weights very from +/-5 grams (meaning you could have a 5 and 6 iron that weigh exactly the same) from the stated weight. Really good manufacturers typically can guarantee +2/-4 grams from the stated weight, but that is not typical. What all of this means to the consumer is that unless you by a truly custom built club (where all of the clubheads are weight sorted and have the loft and lie angles checked and set precisely to the stated specs) you cannot guarantee a good accurate of clubs, whether they are name brand or clones. Many brand name clubs do not check the weights or angles on their clubs all that rigourously. In most cases a custom club maker, using clones, will make clubs that range from a little worse than any name brand to a lot better than a name brand. It all depends on how much effort they put into making sure that all of the clubs meet the proper specs and how closely they pay attention to fitting you with the proper shaft, swingweight and length. Erik - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - I haven't been playing a long time at all, but here's one thing I have noticed. Clubs are awfully expensive to the normal person, and REALLY expensive for the poor starving college student. I've played with a set of Callaway X-12 my friend (rich friend) lent me and loved how they felt to me. Someone else then introduced me to clone clubs (imitations) at 1/5 the price or less. First question, are the clones really that much off? The saying goes, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck". THe design is the same, it swings the same in the way it feels and the ball goes the same distance and accuracy is the same to me, but then again I'm not a great golfer. Has anyone used the clones to any real advantage? For example, the Oribtal clubs are an obvious copy of the Orlimar line ... but are they that much different? Han Su Kim -- ----- Han Su James Kim -----
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Is there any way to find out which of the "knockoff" brands correspond to which of the name brands. When I look at tclub os some of the internet sites I just get confused....but that happens easily! :-0 - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - I haven't been playing a long time at all, but here's one thing I have noticed. Clubs are awfully expensive to the normal person, and REALLY expensive for the poor starving college student. I've played with a set of Callaway X-12 my friend (rich friend) lent me and loved how they felt to me. Someone else then introduced me to clone clubs (imitations) at 1/5 the price or less. First question, are the clones really that much off? The saying goes, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck". THe design is the same, it swings the same in the way it feels and the ball goes the same distance and accuracy is the same to me, but then again I'm not a great golfer. Has anyone used the clones to any real advantage? For example, the Oribtal clubs are an obvious copy of the Orlimar line ... but are they that much different? Han Su Kim -- ----- Han Su James Kim -----
Response:
Remember two things with choosing the quality of a club: Quality of materials and precision of manufacture. Good points... When you buy knockoffs you're getting a cheaper (weaker) steel, But that's just not true...the same alloys are used in Clones as in Brand Names...Many are manufactured in the same Tiwanese Foundrys...
I don't buy it. Take for example the Ping clubs - they use heat treatments (after molding) to change the crystalline structure of the metal for optimum strength. No knockoff does this to the same degree, I guarantee you. As a manufacturer, it's not hard to put the same ingredients in and bake a different cake. Besides, if you're considering the clones that are made from stolen molds, then how could you believe what's in 'em if they're already made by thieves? less consistent dimensions (sometimes completely wrong dimensions), This has been demonstrated to be just as true of brand name clubs as clones...One of the common complaints against knockoffs is that they often use the SAME MOLDS to cast them as were used for the Brand Name items.
That's true for some big-name brands, and since the thread was asking about Callaways, I'll agree that the quality / precision just ain't so hot as say, Titleist. inconsistent swingweight and shaft flex, etc. This is a matter of assembly practice and in house quality control...Again this varies and BIG NAMES arn't necessarily any better than small club builders...We've seen plenty of people in the NG having problems with their Brand name clubs... I don't think that they'd play much differently, but after 5 years of play you'll see a difference. Better made clubs will hold their shape and maintain their integrity. This is true...But stamping a name on a club doesn't qualify it as "BETTER MADE"...likewise the lack of such a name doesn't mean a club is poor in quality...
My point is that WHICH name is stamped on it (legally of course), does tell you a lot. If it's a Titleist or a Ping, then you know you have a good product. If you have a knockoff, you don't have the faintest clue what's in it. It's a simple fact that advertising, endorsements, and "Executive" marketing strategies, pump the prices of Name Brand Clubs up way beyond their actual value. Buying or building Clones is one of the few sensible alternatives...
That's why I don't buy the highly advertised stuff, myself. Never pay full price Dave - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - ]]]Z[[[
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Less money, doesn't necessarily mean lower quality. I would suggest checking out the tour quality clubs that are custom-fitted at chipshot.com. They have a 30 day guarantee and a 1 year warranty on their clubs. - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - Remember two things with choosing the quality of a club: Quality of materials and precision of manufacture. When you buy knockoffs you're getting a cheaper (weaker) steel, less consistent dimensions (sometimes completely wrong dimensions), inconsistent swingweight and shaft flex, etc. I don't think that they'd play much differently, but after 5 years of play you'll see a difference. Better made clubs will hold their shape and maintain their integrity. Just plan on getting a new set once you graduate and save up a few bucks Dave I haven't been playing a long time at all, but here's one thing I have noticed. Clubs are awfully expensive to the normal person, and REALLY expensive for the poor starving college student. I've played with a set of Callaway X-12 my friend (rich friend) lent me and loved how they felt to me. Someone else then introduced me to clone clubs (imitations) at 1/5 the price or less. First question, are the clones really that much off? The saying goes, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck". THe design is the same, it swings the same in the way it feels and the ball goes the same distance and accuracy is the same to me, but then again I'm not a great golfer. Has anyone used the clones to any real advantage? For example, the Oribtal clubs are an obvious copy of the Orlimar line ... but are they that much different? Han Su Kim -- ----- Han Su James Kim -----
Before you buy.
Response:
Remember two things with choosing the quality of a club: Quality of materials and precision of manufacture. When you buy knockoffs you're getting a cheaper (weaker) steel, less consistent dimensions (sometimes completely wrong dimensions), inconsistent swingweight and shaft flex, etc.
You still believe the OEMs check every club? Any good clubmaker can tell you it just doesn't happen! Colin Dick, Calgary, AB GCA Professional Clubmaker. FAQ & DIR's on http://www.cadvision.com/cgdick/ - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -I don't think that they'd play much differently, but after 5 years of play you'll see a difference. Better made clubs will hold their shape and maintain their integrity. Just plan on getting a new set once you graduate and save up a few bucks Dave I haven't been playing a long time at all, but here's one thing I have noticed. Clubs are awfully expensive to the normal person, and REALLY expensive for the poor starving college student. I've played with a set of Callaway X-12 my friend (rich friend) lent me and loved how they felt to me. Someone else then introduced me to clone clubs (imitations) at 1/5 the price or less. First question, are the clones really that much off? The saying goes, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck". THe design is the same, it swings the same in the way it feels and the ball goes the same distance and accuracy is the same to me, but then again I'm not a great golfer. Has anyone used the clones to any real advantage? For example, the Oribtal clubs are an obvious copy of the Orlimar line ... but are they that much different? Han Su Kim -- ----- Han Su James Kim -----
Response:
Remember two things with choosing the quality of a club: Quality of materials and precision of manufacture. When you buy knockoffs you're getting a cheaper (weaker) steel, less consistent dimensions (sometimes completely wrong dimensions), inconsistent swingweight and shaft flex, etc. I don't think that they'd play much differently, but after 5 years of play you'll see a difference. Better made clubs will hold their shape and maintain their integrity. Just plan on getting a new set once you graduate and save up a few bucks Dave - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - I haven't been playing a long time at all, but here's one thing I have noticed. Clubs are awfully expensive to the normal person, and REALLY expensive for the poor starving college student. I've played with a set of Callaway X-12 my friend (rich friend) lent me and loved how they felt to me. Someone else then introduced me to clone clubs (imitations) at 1/5 the price or less. First question, are the clones really that much off? The saying goes, "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck". THe design is the same, it swings the same in the way it feels and the ball goes the same distance and accuracy is the same to me, but then again I'm not a great golfer. Has anyone used the clones to any real advantage? For example, the Oribtal clubs are an obvious copy of the Orlimar line ... but are they that much different? Han Su Kim -- ----- Han Su James Kim -----
Response:
Remember two things with choosing the quality of a club: Quality of materials and precision of manufacture.
Good points... When you buy knockoffs you're getting a cheaper (weaker) steel,
But that's just not true...the same alloys are used in Clones as in Brand Names...Many are manufactured in the same Tiwanese Foundrys... less consistent dimensions (sometimes completely wrong dimensions),
This has been demonstrated to be just as true of brand name clubs as clones...One of the common complaints against knockoffs is that they often use the SAME MOLDS to cast them as were used for the Brand Name items. inconsistent swingweight and shaft flex, etc.
This is a matter of assembly practice and in house quality control...Again this varies and BIG NAMES arn't necessarily any better than small club builders...We've seen plenty of people in the NG having problems with their Brand name clubs... I don't think that they'd play much differently, but after 5 years of play you'll see a difference. Better made clubs will hold their shape and maintain their integrity.
This is true...But stamping a name on a club doesn't qualify it as "BETTER MADE"...likewise the lack of such a name doesn't mean a club is poor in quality... It's a simple fact that advertising, endorsements, and "Executive" marketing strategies, pump the prices of Name Brand Clubs up way beyond their actual value. Buying or building Clones is one of the few sensible alternatives... ]]]Z[[[