Question:
Everyone is omitting the most important factor. The lie of the ball for the shot. It must be on firm ground and the grass must be cut extremely short. If any grass gets between the ball and the clubface, you lose most of the backspin that makes the ball back up on the green. I can hit balls off of a board and make them back up on most any green. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been trying to practice getting backspin but never seem to get close. What’s the secret? Is it: 1) the angle of the my downswing? 2) type of ball? 3) clubface material? Yes Yes No
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been trying to practice getting backspin but never seem to get close. What’s the secret? Is it: 1) the angle of the my downswing? 2) type of ball? 3) clubface material? Yes Yes No
No to number 3! I get more check spin with my trusty rusty than my chromed wedges, though it could have more to do with the tight leading edge and groove pattern I suppose.
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I use Maxfli Tour Patriots or XS Distance. Not exactly high-end but not the cheapest either. Should I try with a higher-end ball like you suggest? I like Maxfli becuase I feel comfortable with the consistant distance results I get. What about a balata ball? I’ve never tried one of those.
I don’t know about the Patriots, but I doubt you’d be able to get the XS Distance to back up. And I’d stay away from balata balls – the soft cover two-piece balls that are all over the place will give you the "action" on the green without losing as much distance. When I’ve occasionally experimented with balata, I’d find I’d lose about two clubs in distance. Not a worthwhile tradeoff IMO. It’ll hit and bounce once, twice, then jerk to a stop or even back up a bit. That’s what I’m trying to do. You also, IMO, should practice from grass whenever you can. It’s what’s on the course; why prepare for shots from anything different? There’s not a lot of ranges in my area that allow you to hit off of grass. I was thinking I could practice this in the chippng areas, but the distance is so short.
Find a nearby course with a cheap twilight rate, go out about 1.5 hours before sunset, pay a greens fee, and practice on the course. I am a member at a local public course and go out late "for nine" all the time. What I really do is practice – usually I’ll hit one or two drives, pick one, and hit several balls into the green, chip and putt each green with several balls. If there’s no one behind you (and there probably won’t be at that hour) you’re not holding anyone up and you’re getting better practice than beating range rocks for a half hour. Do this by yourself and you’ll find you can pretty easily work your way around nine holes even hitting multiple shots in an hour and a half. This is a good way to experiment with different ball types, too. You can hit three or four different balls from the fairway from the same distance and see how you like the reaction to each on the green. It was doing this that I settled on a Srixon Soft-Feel Distance ball. I had been playing the Srixon Hi-Spin and was also experimenting with the Precept Lady. I could back the Hi-Spin up with short irons and wedges, but sometimes too much. I couldn’t get the Lady to go anywhere (I was about a club shorter with this than with the Hi-Spin). I found with the Soft-feel I could get the ball to stop dead on short irons and wedges, maybe even back it up a little, and it was fairly controllable with mid irons as well (rolled, but not a whole lot). I also picked up about a half-club over the Hi Spin in distance. They asked: How often are you past the hole? Answer: Almost never. Their response: Then why do you want to back it up? Not me. I land back of the hole often.
Have you thought about just clubbing down? If you’re constantly landing back of the hole it would be easier to just go down a club and stick with your ball than try to back everything up. I don’t know anyone – pros, amateurs, hackers – that wants to back up every shot they hit into a green. One last question: Can I only expect to get it to back up with a angled wedge? I carry a regular pitching wedge and my sand/lob wedge (58?).
I can back up shots up to a 6-iron with a hi-spin ball. I even backed up a 4-iron once hitting a Tour Professional. With my current ball, I can still backup wedges a little and stop short irons in their tracks pretty well. Chris
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I can back up shots up to a 6-iron with a hi-spin ball. I even backed up a 4-iron once hitting a Tour Professional.
The greens you’re playing on also has a lot to do with it. I once backed up a 4-wood shot from the fairway on a course with soft spongy greens. Also, the ball is important. Try the Callaway Blue Rule 35 if you can still find them.
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Much is made of "backing up" a ball, yet even the pros will tell you in many cases that they’d like to get a little less "backup" on their shots. It cost Greg Norman big-time when Bob Tway blasted out of the bunker to win the ‘86 PGA Championship. Few remember this, but when Norman hit his approach to the green, it was about 10 feet from the hole, but he backed it up off the green into the rough, making his birdie attempt (to tie Tway after the improbably hole-out from the sand) all but impossible. For another
example, That’s information you never see in the "Spin Doctor" informercials… (available for only 3 easy payments of $29.95) — CA Remove NoSpam to email me directly. Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge. "
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I’ve not been playing long enough to tell you the proper way, but I did play with a guy last fall who had a wedge that was called the spin doctor. It had different inserts that could be placed in the clubface.He said it was an illegal club, but the amount of spin generated was incredible. I saw him hit a shot over the green about two ft. into the rough and it still spun back onto the green. By seeing this club at work I would have to say that club face has a lot to do with it. I was watching a Tour event on T.V. last fall and I heard one of the commentators mention that a veteran player, whom I can’t recall, would often rub mud on his clubface on certain shots to lessen the spin effect.
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Wow Mike thanks for the thorough reply. That’s more info than I’ve found and I’ve been trying. Let me respond and clarify: There is a big misnomer about this. What is is you want this backspin to do for you? Draw the ball back? Keep balls on the green that are bouncing over? Yep. I’m trying to learn how to draw it back. I don’t expect to be on a ‘Pro’ level and do it consistantly but I’ve been tryin in between holes and haven’t been able to do it even ONCE. You’d think with just dumb luck….
"in between holes"? What does that mean? You’re not going to back up any ball on anything other than a green. How do you know you’ve never done it? I’ll bet I only see my ball back up, oh, maybe 1/4 of the time it really does. Your angle is just too foreshortened to see it much. I’ve seen it when I’ve sucked it off the green, but that’s always helped by the slope of the green. Usually I can tell if the ball is significantly closer to where I hit it from than the ballmark is, say a few feet (maybe 2-4, rarely more than that). Do you ever see your ballmark further away than the ball? Balls like the ProV1, the Callaway Rule 35s, some of the Stratas (and there are a lot of others) accept spin well. Balls like Pinnacle Distance balls do not. Generally, "cheap" balls are not balls which accept spin well. I use Maxfli Tour Patriots or XS Distance. Not exactly high-end but not the cheapest either. Should I try with a higher-end ball like you suggest? I like Maxfli becuase I feel comfortable with the consistant distance results I get. What about a balata ball? I’ve never tried one of those.
I don’t know where the Tour Patriots are in terms of spin…but anything named "XS Distance" is not likely to be soft. If you’re really dying to do this, get a sleeve of Callaway Rule 35 Blues and try it with them. One thing I didn’t mention in my other post is that balls that spin more accept backspin better…but they also accept *sidespin* better as well. It’ll hit and bounce once, twice, then jerk to a stop or even back up a bit. That’s what I’m trying to do.
There are three things that contribute to my being able to do this: Soft ball, good ballstrike, good low trajectory. You also, IMO, should practice from grass whenever you can. It’s what’s on the course; why prepare for shots from anything different? There’s not a lot of ranges in my area that allow you to hit off of grass. I was thinking I could practice this in the chippng areas, but the distance is so short.
IMO, you’re not doing yourself any favors practicing from mats. Wouldn’t surprise me in the least if you’re hitting behind the ball on them w/o even knowing it, and when you do that on the course, you’re catching grass between the ball and the club, or just hitting slightly fat (which does the same thing). You’ll never back up a ball if that happens. They asked: How often are you past the hole? Answer: Almost never. Their response: Then why do you want to back it up? Not me. I land back of the hole often.
Being able to suck the ball back is highly overrated. Sure, it looks nice, and it’s a sign of a well-struck shot, but from the standpoint of *scoring*, you need to keep the ball close to the hole. If you’re landing well past the pin then you’ve chosen the wrong club, and it’s not a backspin problem that you have. And if you *can’t* do it consistently, then it’s of little value at all. Better to club down and let the ball bounce/roll up to the hole. One last question: Can I only expect to get it to back up with a angled wedge? I carry a regular pitching wedge and my sand/lob wedge (58?).
Know what? I almost never back up a ball that drops on the green from a steep trajectory. Oh, it sits right close to the ballmark, within a foot or two, but it’s not sucking back much if at all. Two things prevent that: First, there’s too much spin lost in the ballmark as the ball hits the green, and two, too much spin is lost to air friction and so there’s not as much as you’d think when it hits the green. I only can spin wedges back (and down to about an 8-iron) if I am delofting it somewhat by hitting it with my hands forward, and using that nice, crisp, downward strike into the ball. This creates a low trajectory which gives up much less of the spin to air friction (it’s just not in the air as long), and because the approach angle is shallower, the ballmark in the green is shallower, resulting in less spin given up in that ballmark. You know how I can tell if I’ve *really* spun a ball well? The ball will have bit a piece of the green out of the ballmark, a little chunk of grass that sits near the ballmark. As I have learned to do this, I’ve realized more and more the value of lower trajectory shots, *with* spin. I’ve played with friends who see me hit those shots, and their initial reaction while the ball’s in the air is "uh oh." thinking that the ball is going to bounce over. But they don’t know what spin I’ve put on it. I always know, though: If I get that nice low trajectory, it *automatically* has good spin on it. And it’ll hold the green very close to where it lands. Mike PS: I don’t want to give you the impression I’m an expert on this, ’cause I’m not. I’m still learning it to do it. But these are the things that make the difference. PPS: How’s the rest of your game? Have a handicap index? What do you normally shoot? Where are the weaknesses in your game? The strengths? PPPS: One last thing: How’s your short game? You know why I’m willing to try shots like this that if I miss them, leave me anywhere BUT on the green? I have a short game. I believe I can get up and down from anywhere around the green. And so that takes pressure off the approach, which means I can hit it better than I would otherwise. Mike Dalecki RSG-Wisconsin 2002 Info http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2002 I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean! Web Site: http://www.dalecki.net/clubdoctor/ RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm
Response:
A well-struck shot will back up if… * You’re using a high-spin ball * You’re hitting into soft, receptive greens * You’re hitting into greens that are canted back-to-front, or is, at least, flat * You’re using a higher lofted club * You’re hitting into a headwind When you see the pros on TV "sucking back" a shot, what you’re not seeing is… * How soft the greens are (not even the pros can suck back a shot on hard greens) * How the green is canted (TV makes even big hills look pretty flat, and it certainly doesn’t pick up the more subtle undulations on greens; no pro will "suck back" a ball if their ball lands on a slope that’s going away from them) * What iron they’re hitting (Greg Norman won’t "pull the string" on a 3-iron) * How the wind is blowing (no pro is going to suck back a ball if they’re hitting downwind unless, maybe, if they’re hitting a wedge into a soft green that’s got a fair amount of back-to-front slope on it). Much is made of "backing up" a ball, yet even the pros will tell you in many cases that they’d like to get a little less "backup" on their shots. It cost Greg Norman big-time when Bob Tway blasted out of the bunker to win the ‘86 PGA Championship. Few remember this, but when Norman hit his approach to the green, it was about 10 feet from the hole, but he backed it up off the green into the rough, making his birdie attempt (to tie Tway after the improbably hole-out from the sand) all but impossible. For another example, Tiger Woods has tried in recent years to resist the temptation of going with less club and hitting the ball harder (because it results in unpredictable spin on the greens), opting instead for more club and "deader hands" through the shot. His hole-out from the 15th fairway in the final round of the ‘00 AT&T Pebble Beach National Pro-Am was a perfect example — the ball hit, stopped, caught the slope of the green and rolled left toward the hole…and IN for an eagle 2. If he’d gone with sand wedge instead, he could have gotten the ball to the hole, but it would have spun back, instead of accepting the slope of the green. Oh yes, there is another factor — the lie in the fairway. I was discussing this today with my pro, who played on TOUR for several years. He told me that depending on the receptiveness of the greens, he would often have to guess "how far must I carry this shot past the hole to get it close after it backs up?" when hitting off of zoyzia or kukuya fairways. In other words, "backing up" the ball wasn’t so much a thing he *wanted* the ball to do, but rather, it was something he knew it *would* do, and therefore had to compensate for it, like a crosswind. Better players would much rather have the ball react predictably when it lands — like hitting, bouncing once and stopping, rather than backing up. Plus, most amateur golfers tend to err on the short side. As Lee Trevino once told an amateur partner, "Why would you want it to back up? You’re not getting it to the hole!" Randy Troll intolerant. I took the RSG 2002 Pledge. "Smoke ‘em out … dead or alive, I don’t care." - G. Bush I do not patronize those who advertise in RSG. RSG-ATLANTA 2002 – www.YouGoGolf.com/rsga.org Golf on the web – www.YouGoGolf.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wow Mike thanks for the thorough reply. That’s more info than I’ve found and I’ve been trying. Let me respond and clarify: There is a big misnomer about this. What is is you want this backspin to do for you? Draw the ball back? Keep balls on the green that are bouncing over? Yep. I’m trying to learn how to draw it back. I don’t expect to be on a ‘Pro’ level and do it consistantly but I’ve been tryin in between holes and haven’t been able to do it even ONCE. You’d think with just dumb luck…. Balls like the ProV1, the Callaway Rule 35s, some of the Stratas (and there are a lot of others) accept spin well. Balls like Pinnacle Distance balls do not. Generally, "cheap" balls are not balls which accept spin well. I use Maxfli Tour Patriots or XS Distance. Not exactly high-end but not the cheapest either. Should I try with a higher-end ball like you suggest? I like Maxfli becuase I feel comfortable with the consistant distance results I get. What about a balata ball? I’ve never tried one of those. It’ll hit and bounce once, twice, then jerk to a stop or even back up a bit. That’s what I’m trying to do. You also, IMO, should practice from grass whenever you can. It’s what’s on the course; why prepare for shots from anything different? There’s not a lot of ranges in my area that allow you to hit off of grass. I was thinking I could practice this in the chippng areas, but the distance is so short. They asked: How often are you past the hole? Answer: Almost never. Their response: Then why do you want to back it up? Not me. I land back of the hole often. One last question: Can I only expect to get it to back up with a angled wedge? I carry a regular pitching wedge and my sand/lob wedge (58?). Thanks for the response. -vmpaul
Response:
Wow Mike thanks for the thorough reply. That’s more info than I’ve found and I’ve been trying. Let me respond and clarify: There is a big misnomer about this. What is is you want this backspin to do for you? Draw the ball back? Keep balls on the green that are bouncing over?
Yep. I’m trying to learn how to draw it back. I don’t expect to be on a ‘Pro’ level and do it consistantly but I’ve been tryin in between holes and haven’t been able to do it even ONCE. You’d think with just dumb luck…. Balls like the ProV1, the Callaway Rule 35s, some of the Stratas (and there are a lot of others) accept spin well. Balls like Pinnacle Distance balls do not. Generally, "cheap" balls are not balls which accept spin well.
I use Maxfli Tour Patriots or XS Distance. Not exactly high-end but not the cheapest either. Should I try with a higher-end ball like you suggest? I like Maxfli becuase I feel comfortable with the consistant distance results I get. What about a balata ball? I’ve never tried one of those. It’ll hit and bounce once, twice, then jerk to a stop or even back up a bit.
That’s what I’m trying to do. You also, IMO, should practice from grass whenever you can. It’s what’s on the course; why prepare for shots from anything different?
There’s not a lot of ranges in my area that allow you to hit off of grass. I was thinking I could practice this in the chippng areas, but the distance is so short. They asked: How often are you past the hole? Answer: Almost never. Their response: Then why do you want to back it up?
Not me. I land back of the hole often. One last question: Can I only expect to get it to back up with a angled wedge? I carry a regular pitching wedge and my sand/lob wedge (58?). Thanks for the response. -vmpaul
Response:
I’ve been trying to practice getting backspin but never seem to get close. What’s the secret? Is it: 1) the angle of the my downswing? 2) type of ball? 3) clubface material?
Yes Yes No
Response:
So, I ‘ve been playing for a few years now and have gotten to the point where a couple of skillful shots could help. I’ve been trying to practice getting backspin but never seem to get close. What’s the secret?
You have been getting it. I’d ask why do you think you’re not? It’s almost impossible to hit a ball with an iron and not get some backspin on it. Ever hit a shot that starts low and seems to rise? Or to balloon into the wind? Those shots are impossible without backspin on the ball. In fact, without backspin, we wouldn’t get the distance we do on shots, as backspin provides lift which keeps the ball in the air longer. Is it: 1) the angle of the my downswing? 2) type of ball? 3) clubface material? 4) or a combination of all the above? Any tips would be helpful. I can’t to seem to find any literature on it or figure it out on my own. Also, can it be practiced on regular range mats?
There is a big misnomer about this. What is is you want this backspin to do for you? Draw the ball back? Keep balls on the green that are bouncing over? How *much* backspin you get on a ball is a consequence of a lot of factors, including, in no particular order: 1. The ball. Some balls accept spin far better than others. "Distance" balls are notorious for not accepting spin as well as "feel" or "spin" balls. Balls like the ProV1, the Callaway Rule 35s, some of the Stratas (and there are a lot of others) accept spin well. Balls like Pinnacle Distance balls do not. Generally, "cheap" balls are not balls which accept spin well. 2. The loft. A higher lofted club will impart more backspin than a lower lofted club. You’re not going to put enough backspin on a ball w/ a 4-iron to draw it back. 3. How long the ball is in the air. Air creates friction on the ball which causes it to lose spin. A ball hit very high in the air will lose much of the spin from the friction. A pro once said the name of the game is to hit the ball with a low trajectory with spin–those who can do that, can score. 4. The receptiveness of the green. Greens that are very hard will not hold, period. It’s like hitting onto linoleum. The green has to be soft enough to take some of the momentum off the ball without being so soft that the ball gives up all it’s spin in the ballmark–although in that case, the ball will stick pretty much where it falls. 5. Grass between ball and clubface. You need a clean contact between ball and clubface. Grass between ball and clubface will reduce the amount of spin applied to the ball. That’s why it’s very hard to get a ball hit from the rough to hold a green unless the trajectory is very high–the ball comes out with far less backspin. 6. Crispness of the hit. A sharp, downward strike of the ball will produce good backspin, in combination with it being a clean hit. Many times people think they need to scoop the ball to get backspin–but that’s not going to get you very much. Sometimes people think of this crisp hit as "pinching the ball between the club and the fairway." That doesn’t really happen (the ball isn’t pinched), but it’s a useful way of thinking about how you need to hit the ball. 7. Angle of descent. This isn’t really related to backspin unless the ball is hit very high (air friction reduces spin), but a ball will hold a green more easily if it is falling at a steeper angle. IMO, the two most important things for producing a lot of backspin are the kind of ball, and the quality of the ballstrike. But you aren’t going to see a lot of evidence of backspin–certainly not like you see the pros do–unless most of the above conditions are in place. In fact, it’s hard to see the ball draw back simply because of your vantage point. Three other things. First, for me, the best shot is a low trajectory shot w/ lots of spin (I listened to the pro). To do that, I strike the ball with hands forward, weight forward, with a good descending blow into the ball which leaves a shallow divot. That ball will look like it’ll hit and skip right over the green, but it won’t. It’ll hit and bounce once, twice, then jerk to a stop or even back up a bit. I can’t do it all the time, of course–I’m nobody’s pro–but it’s the ideal shot for me. It’s not high (less wind influence), and it’s *not* going to bounce over the green. Second, you asked how best to practice it. You’re not going to see evidence of backspin on the range, only hitting into greens. I personally abhor hitting from mats–they simply don’t play like a good lie in a fairway does. When I’m forced to hit from them (indoor range, for instance), I concentrate on the "pinch the ball between clubead and fairway" idea. I try very hard to hit the ball before the mat. Hitting "fat" on the mat is often disguised by the clubhead skipping into the ball, and you need to concentrate on not having that happen. If you hit "fat" on the fairway, you can kiss most of your potential backspin goodbye. You also, IMO, should practice from grass whenever you can. It’s what’s on the course; why prepare for shots from anything different? And so, your practice should focus on quality of contact. Third, I think back to what several pros have said when people ask them how to get backspin on the ball to get it to back up. They asked: How often are you past the hole? Answer: Almost never. Their response: Then why do you want to back it up? And I think that’s a good question to end on: What is it you expect this backspin to do for you? Good luck! Mike — Mike Dalecki RSG-Wisconsin 2002 Info http://dalecki.net/rsgwis2002 I do not patronize spammers. Help keep RSG clean! Web Site: http://www.dalecki.net/clubdoctor/ RSG Roll Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/daleckim.htm
Response:
So, I ‘ve been playing for a few years now and have gotten to the point where a couple of skillful shots could help. I’ve been trying to practice getting backspin but never seem to get close. What’s the secret? Is it: 1) the angle of the my downswing? 2) type of ball? 3) clubface material? 4) or a combination of all the above? Any tips would be helpful. I can’t to seem to find any literature on it or figure it out on my own. Also, can it be practiced on regular range mats?