Question:
I was the one that fought the Meowers most vehemently. I remember all to well that troll war and the time I put in to make it end. Untold e-mails contacting Altopia and Altopia’s president directly. However, I have to respectfully disagree with your opinion above, Dan. There have been many enthusiastic and some not so enthusiastic reviews given with golf related items ranging from the Swing Jacket to Pull Carts.
There has always been a major difference, no one who had a direct financial interest was involved in those recommendations, they are simply from one user to another potential user about their own experiences with whatever the product happened to be, a ball or a training aid. But whenever someone came into the NG and say "Look at my website for great golf tips!" or "Go here for cheap golf balls" he got reported for advertising or spamming. That’s the difference here, someone with a direct financial interest is actively involved in the discussion in several threads. I’ve seen everything written by Don Doyle and Jeff regarding the putter. This is being done in the same spirit that RSG events are held. Providing some golf marketing advice is not SPAM…. especially when the item isn’t even mentioned in the thread.
Nowhere have I ever said that anyone was spamming. I’ve been here a long time and while I’m only one voice in R.S.G., I believe I can see the difference between this offering and the SPAM that has been fed to us in the past.
I am also just one voice, but I hope you will consider the points I presented here and in my other replies. I am very concerned that a double standard is being created. Scott
– Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm
Response:
Sorry, Dan, but I have to disagree here. First a disclaimer. I don’t own a Pegg putter. I’ve never seen a Pegg putter. I’m not interested in trying a Pegg putter. I’m very happy with my P*ng Ans*r. I haven’t seen anything posted by Jeff Pegg that could be considered spam by any stretch of the imagination. IMHO, he’s been very careful to avoid that abuse and I commend him for it.
Nor have I accused Jeff of spamming. I have been equally careful to avoid making that accusation. As far as his "shills", I think that description is a insult to Don Doyle and is uncalled for. Don says his only connection with Pegg is that of a very satisfied customer, and I take Don at his word on that point. If Don can’t rave about a piece of equipment he feels is a valued addition to his arsenal, then most – if not all – of us are guilty of the same. This instance certianly does not fall into the catagory of those thinly-veiled "look what I found" spam posts.
Please read my next post, I retracted and apologized for the use of the term. What I want to know is why you assumed I was referring to Don Doyle? I very carefully did not mention any names, yet you and he both assumed it was him. How many RSGers are playing Integra drivers, purchased from diamondtour.com, as a direct result of the same type of recommendation from people on this group? How about the Dynacraft Jackaroo? I could probably name dozens of other items or suppliers that have been "promoted" by RSG regular in the 6 years or so I’ve been here. I fail to see that Don’s enthusiam for the Pegg putter is any different – except that Jeff has been willing to give away some if his merchandise, and offer it up for free trial.
Discussions among people with no financial interest are one thing. But it is Jeff’s company and he is actively involved in the discussions, he has a financial interest. As far as Jeff’s offer to send a putter around to those in the group to try, I think it’s a wonderful idea. It takes a lot of confidence in your product to offer it up to users in an unmoderated, public forum. In a group this critical, he probably has a lot more to lose than to gain. He made the offer in the most unobtrusive way possible – not even a link to his site. He just asked interested parties to email him.
I would feel a lot better about it if this had been arranged out of the NG or had been arranged by someone off-line. Are we going to allow company who offers free samples or demos to advertise in the NG? Because that is what this is all about, advertising, plain and simple. That the original idea came from and RSG’er doesn’t change that fact, it just means that what is going on is not spam. Is their really any difference in that offer and the free golf balls we got from Wilson and Maxfli because someone here told us where to get them? Is it really any different than people posting which websites have the best buys on Callaway balls?
How many times has someone posted a URL for a site selling low-cost or used balls and then been flamed to hell and gone because it was his own site that he was recommending? It happens almost weekly, he gets reported for spamming and if he had a home account his ISP shuts him down or makes him open a commercial account. The difference is that the people actively involved don’t have a financial interest in your example, but do in mine. That has always been the dividing line, recommendations from uninterested parties are welcome, but if the person making the recommendation could personally gain from it then it was advertising or spam. And yes, I do remember the Steve Conlon war *very* clearly. He crossed the line between offering good, valuable spam-free clubmaking advise to blatant advertising – and was nailed for it. As he should have been. IMHO, Jeff Pegg hasn’t done anything approaching that. He understands the rules and appears perfectly willing to play by them. As long as that continues, I see no reason to do anything other than to welcome him to the group. I don’t see the need to stretch the definition of spam to cover this case.
I repeat once again, I have NOT accused Jeff of spamming. My argument has nothing to do with Jeff in particular. If I were in his position I would probably be doing the same things he is. My problem is with what appears to be a double standard, Jeff is involved only to the extent that he is on one side of the standard and most other people who attempt to advertise here are on the other side. If we have a policy of prohibiting advertising in this newsgroup then it needs to be applied equally. Or I need to get busy editing out the parts of the FAQ that prohibit commercial and advertising posts. Don’t get me wrong. I *do* respect your opinoin, and appreciate the efforts you’ve made to limit the spam in this group. In this case, however, I think it’s an overreaction. It would certainly be detremental to the usefulness of this group if we couldn’t recommend equipment we used, or had to censor our favorable posts about our G*******h or T******t equipment, less we be accused of being shills for the manufacturers.
I agree, a major part of the NG’s purpose is product reviews, recommendations, etc. I have no problem with that and I routinely make recommendations for Maxfli balls, Golfsmith and Armour irons and SKB hard cases. See, I just did it again! 
But I have absolutely ZERO to gain from those recommendations. And that is a major difference, at least for me. — Joe Cartpath – www.joecartpath.com Basic Golf Clubmaking & Memphis Area Golf Course Guide and….The Memphis MG Page…
– Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm
Response:
I clearly need to work on my writing skills, because only one person saw the point I was trying to make and even he only partially got it. That’s my fault, I wasn’t clear enough and then I touched a hot button that obviously torqued one person and probably some others. So first, I apologize for using the term "shill", it was inappropriate and inaccurate. I did not intend to accuse anyone of promoting Jeff’s putter for financial consideration, which is the definition of a shill or the act of shilling. That was wrong and I was out of line. I also want to clarify something that I thought was well understood, yet no one, not even that one person, has caught on. At no time have I accused, said or insinuated that Jeff or anyone else in this discussion was spamming. I have very carefully used the word "advertising", because I wanted to avoid the negative connotations that go along with the word "spam", spam and advertising are not always the same thing and this is one of those times. The reason I have been very careful not to accuse Jeff of spamming is because his posts were in response to requests made by RSG’ers. However, I do believe that Jeff is advertising and yes, Jeff has had sales pitches in his posts, here is one from his reply to an RSG’er: "I do want to warn everyone, I am not looking for "if it works" thoughts. I have a 80% percent record on a written testimonial coming back from a unsolicited customer buying my putter. Many I must ad has come from this RSG group. This is unheard of from any putter on the market now, matter of fact, I am in talks with one of the top five golf companies in the United States wanting to carry my PP-III model. There interest came from a customer writing them and telling them of there experience in how my putter has changed there game." He is extolling the virtues of his product and endorsements from users, that is a sales pitch and product advertising, plain and simple. Anyone who doubts that probably believes that Tiger Woods drives a Buick because he prefers it all other cars. And please don’t give me that tired old saw about RSG being too small to have any effect on sales. For small start-ups word-of-mouth advertising is life. If Jeff isn’t thrilled with all the exposure his product has received in the past week he should close-up shop and quit now, because this is the type of advertising that can make a company, particularly when it is just getting started. Jeff gets what is essentially free advertising in the group when everyone knows he has a product to sell and nobody complains. He gets more exposure by asking for help with advertising slogans. What really bothers me is the apparent double standard that RSG has set. A few weeks ago a guy e-mailed me wanting to know if it would be OK for him to post the URL for his website and ask people to take a look at it and offer suggestions. I said it would probably be OK, so long as he didn’t make it an advertisement and he then posted a simple message just asking people to take a look and if they felt like it, please offer any suggestions they might have. There were no ‘eye-counter’ banner ads on the site, you didn’t have to register to get in or anything like that. He wasn’t even selling anything, at least not yet. But he got majorly flamed by a number of people, because he had a mailing list that readers could VOLUNTARILY sign-up for. Mind you, no one had to sign up to access any part of the site, he wasn’t selling anything at the time and the sign-up was completely at the discretion of the reader. Several of the people who flamed that person have also been involved in the threads involving Jeff and his putter and they haven’t been throwing flames. I did not ‘name names’ in the first post and I’m not going to now, if you want that info you can go to Google and look it up for yourself. What I would like is an explanation for why the guy with the website but nothing to sell got flamed, yet Jeff, who is selling something, gets active assistance in the form of marketing slogans, without flames (except from Annika1980, which was about the product itself, not the advertising). Somebody explain to me how that is not a double standard. — Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm
Response:
Fine. Quote the post where Jeff "advertised" his putter. You can’t, because he didn’t. He asked for help on his marketing. He didn’t offer a single word to invite anyone to buy it or even learn more about it. At least not in any of the posts I saw. You’re right — there are many types of advertising. The ones in the newspaper to which you refer are often referred to as "retail" advertising. Then there is "positioning" advertising, which makes up the bulk of all advertising found in electronic (and even non-newspaper print advertising) that merely "positions" the product in the minds of the consumers. In neither case can the advertising create a sale.
"Off-the-page" sales ads do… "..clip out and complete the coupon below NOW, and sent with cheque ("check" to you) to….." Sorry… carry on… — F.
Response:
Fine. Quote the post where Jeff "advertised" his putter. You can’t, because he didn’t. He asked for help on his marketing. He didn’t offer a single word to invite anyone to buy it or even learn more about it. At least not in any of the posts I saw. You’re right — there are many types of advertising. The ones in the newspaper to which you refer are often referred to as "retail" advertising. Then there is "positioning" advertising, which makes up the bulk of all advertising found in electronic (and even non-newspaper print advertising) that merely "positions" the product in the minds of the consumers. In neither case can the advertising create a sale. Ultimately, that’s up to the salesperson to do the closing. Do you hand your money to the newspaper boy to buy that matress that’s advertised in the paper? No. You merely become AWARE of it, and you drive in to the matress store to make the purchase. The advertising merely motivates. In the case of "positioning" advertising, it merely creates brand awareness. But getting back to the original point, if Jeff is guilty, fine. But where? Point me to the post where he invited sales. Randy RSG-ATLANTA Information: http://www.YouGoGolf.com/rsg-atlanta.htm The RSG TOUR: These Guys are Goons My RSG Roll Call profile: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/brownr.htm RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html Voiceovers/Narration/Voice Acting: www.RandyBrownProductions.com To e-mail me, go to my website at www.YouGoGolf.com and find the link.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – not. First, advertising is NOT intended to make a sale. Not directly. The purpose of advertising is merely to increase brand awareness, which, if you have a good product/service to offer and there’s demand for it, should, in theory, lead to increased sales. Randy, if you reread the above statement, you will certainly see that it sounds silly to many of us. There are many types of advertising, which include those intended to raise brand or product awareness. However, to imply – evenly casually – that no advertising is done for the direct purpose of stimulating sales is just silly. Go to any Sunday newspaper, dump about two pounds of it on the floor, look at the "Only $299", "No one beats our prices", or the "C’mon down. We’ll make you a deal you can’t refuse." and tell me it is not about sales. I’m not saying Jeff was doing this, but one of the posts he made was definitely advertising. If some types of advertising by some people is allowed, how the hell can we justify hard-assing someone else about another type? Advertising is advertising, and it’s commercial. It doesn’t belong here. That’s not to say that Jeff shouldn’t be thanked for his donations, but it doesn’t relax the "rules". At least not IMHO. May your next round be your best round. Dave Please: no spam, off topic, or crossposts as explained in the RSG FAQ: at http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html
Response:
not. First, advertising is NOT intended to make a sale. Not directly. The purpose of advertising is merely to increase brand awareness, which, if you have a good product/service to offer and there’s demand for it, should, in theory, lead to increased sales.
Randy, if you reread the above statement, you will certainly see that it sounds silly to many of us. There are many types of advertising, which include those intended to raise brand or product awareness. However, to imply – evenly casually – that no advertising is done for the direct purpose of stimulating sales is just silly. Go to any Sunday newspaper, dump about two pounds of it on the floor, look at the "Only $299", "No one beats our prices", or the "C’mon down. We’ll make you a deal you can’t refuse." and tell me it is not about sales. I’m not saying Jeff was doing this, but one of the posts he made was definitely advertising. If some types of advertising by some people is allowed, how the hell can we justify hard-assing someone else about another type? Advertising is advertising, and it’s commercial. It doesn’t belong here. That’s not to say that Jeff shouldn’t be thanked for his donations, but it doesn’t relax the "rules". At least not IMHO. May your next round be your best round. Dave Please: no spam, off topic, or crossposts as explained in the RSG FAQ: at http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html
Response:
I have already written to Don privately on this matter, but I want to make my position clear for those who perceive that I have somehow supported a spam effort. First, I am vehemently opposed to spam as I define it. Further, I agree with those who have stated that if left unchecked, this unmoderated forum could quickly be overrrun by spammers. One needn’t look far to find numerous examples of just such a phenomenon on Usenet. I did, at one time in the past, play devil’s advocate in a debate concerning spam. Frankly, I’ve thought at times our rules were too strict. But I consider this a society, and I’m just one small part of it. So when it became clear to me that the overwhelming majority felt it best to steer completely clear of allowing spam, I quickly acquiesced. Their thinking seemed to be that if you open the door for one, the floodgates might burst open. Hard to argue with the logic. Second, since my own definition of spam, while not widely relevant, is relevant to me and I base my opposition to spam on it, I feel it’s appropriate to explain how I define spam. In essence, I perceive it as spam whenever a message carries a clear sales message and contains a call to action, either to "buy" or to "read more about it" through a link or somesuch. Perhaps my more narrow view of spam is the reason why I’ve felt our rules are too strict. Clearly, in the minds of many, "advertising" in and of itself constitutes spam. But being more or less in the advertising business myself, I have what I believe is a better-than-average understanding of what advertising is and is not. First, advertising is NOT intended to make a sale. Not directly. The purpose of advertising is merely to increase brand awareness, which, if you have a good product/service to offer and there’s demand for it, should, in theory, lead to increased sales. This assumes, of course, that your advertising message is compelling and appropriately targeted. The name of the golf club on my shirt is advertising, though it’s hardly intrusive. Mr. Pegg generously donated a putter to RSG-ATLANTA. He’s doing it for other RSG events, too. For that he deserves some recognition and public thanks. He’s gonna get it whether you like it or not because the people who stage these events are going to feel compelled to do something nice in return. A simple message of thanks seems appropriate, and I’ve heard no one complain about those messages. Rightly so. It’s Jeff’s attempt to gather feedback for the purpose of his using it in other marketing efforts that has raised the ire of some in RSG. First, I don’t see how gathering "market research" is necessarily the same as "advertising." The difference in this case seems tactical, not strategic. When companies do focus group research, they typically do so behind the veil of a one-way mirror, without anyone in the room knowing who’s paid for the research project. If Mr. Pegg erred in this instance, it was by mentioning the name of his putter in the solicitation for feeback. But how else would he have received useful information without identifying what it was he wanted feedback ABOUT? Even if his request was "advertising" (and I will admit the subsequent thread has, indeed, "raised brand awareness," so in theory, it does fall under the definition of advertising in my book, however unwittingly), it seems fairly innocent. He didn’t post any sales messages. He didn’t include OR EVEN IMPLY a call to action to "buy" or "read more about it." To me, that’s the threshold something must meet before it’s spam. And he can hardly be blamed for the lengthiness of the ensuing thread. On numerous occasions in the past, companies I’ve worked for (mostly radio stations) have been the subject of conversation and even coverage in the news by local TV stations. A reporter and cameraman would come out, gather some footage, ask some questions, and a report would air on the 6:00 news. Under the strictest terms, that’s advertising, since it raises brand awareness. But we didn’t purchase it. Indeed, as the old saying goes, "that kind of advertising money can’t buy." I don’t think Jeff’s solicitation for input for his marketing is spam. It does raise brand awareness, but only in a peripheral sort of way. If he’d posted the request without ever even mentioning the brand name of his putter, it wouldn’t even have qualified under that loose standard. But he did. Still, he never asked for a sale or requested that you go to a website to learn more about the product. So I think it fell short of the threshold. But as I said to Don Doyle in my private e-mail to him, I do think it’s a gray area. And considering the heightened sensitivities we have concerning this issue in RSG, those of us who have been staunch defenders of a spam-free environment would do well not to give the appearance of endorsing something that is admittedly borderline. It sends the wrong signal. If we’re going to hold Mr. Hibbard to a standard, we should hold everyone else to the same standard. And if there’s some question, well, when in doubt, don’t. Randy RSG-ATLANTA Information: http://www.YouGoGolf.com/rsg-atlanta.htm The RSG TOUR: These Guys are Goons My RSG Roll Call profile: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/brownr.htm RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html Voiceovers/Narration/Voice Acting: www.RandyBrownProductions.com To e-mail me, go to my website at www.YouGoGolf.com and find the link.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dan, I read your post with great interest and concern. For the record, there was no intent on my part to spam or shill for Jeff Pegg and I do not think that I have. Jeff and I previously discussed via email if it would be ok to post about his requesting help for a slogan. I thought it would be ok and even wrote to others in RSG asking their opinion – all were positive so I told him to post it. For what it is worth, and to Jeff I am sorry to post this but I think it is important. Jeff does not have a strong command of the written word – as he has indicated this in some past posts. He simply wrote to me asking for help – nothing more – nothing offered to me – just one person asking for another’s advice. This has happened before and after I asked him to donate a putter – he has simply come to me asking for an opinion and I hope he continues to do so. Regarding the putter – it was my idea to ask Jeff to donate it. The sole intent was to get a nice prize for RSG-ATLANTA because in private email Randy had indicated that he wanted to give everyone a prize. It then evolved into offering it to ALL RSG’ers thus enabling everyone to be included in the "event". It took all of one email to Jeff and a reply within minutes. Hell, he couldn’t have time to even think about it – he just did it because he is truly a nice guy. I know this for a fact as I met with him at the PGA Show this past January in Orlando. LET THIS BE PERFECTLY CLEAR: You have incorrectly concluded the following: "Whether it is deliberate or not, he now seems to have found a way to
enlist the support of at least a few – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – of those same people. Jeff very very seldom posted here in the recent past. He certainly has better things to do than sell a couple of putters in RSG. I believe he has sold somewhere near 1500 of them in the past year – you do the math. The man truly believes (as do I) that his putter can aid EVERYONE. The amount of money he could make from RSG wouldn’t amount to a pimple on a knat’s ass. To suggest what you have – as stated above is a blatant untruth and I sincerely hope that you will take the time to talk to Jeff and then issue a retraction. You can even use his 800 number – so you don’t have an excuse for not talking to him unless you are afraid you have mis-spoken and choose not to admit it. You are also accusing "those same people" – your mind is the only one that knows who you think they are. Why don’t you email them and ask them? When a foot comes back through your monitor and kicks you in the ass, I think you will have your answer. To think that he would "enlist the support" and then for you to print it certainly doesn’t say much for what you think of your fellow RSG’ers. I personally find it very insulting. I put in many many hours of my time and many $$$ in material to help Randy with RSG-ATLANTA and for you to suggest that I would spam because of a free putter being sent to the event is absurd and irresponsible on your part. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but don’t make statements to which you have no knowledge. You will notice that nowhere in his post did he mention his web site. I do not read every post and do not intend to do so but, there has been more shit stirred concerning this by Trollicity than anyone concerning Jeff’s request. Most have seen the value in it and wish to participate in the contest. Having donated a gift to RSG-ATLANTA does not give ANYONE the right to spam this group and I do not believe that Jeff has done that. Hell, I donated a lot more in value than his putter and I realize that this is not the place to try to sell anything. Put RSG sales in your business plan and the bank will bounce you out the door on your ass en route to the loony bin. To me spam is the posting of golf vacations, buy this item, and of course the stuff said about YKW’s items and the way that he has written them, etc. Jeff, has not done that. I was the one who mentioned Jeff’s company in the first reply to his request. Go back and read my post carefully. Now, lets get down to common courtesy. Jeff asked a question – he asked
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Dan, I have tried hard to forget the Dark Days of Steve Conlon and his threatening the group and personal death threats and perpetual animosity, thanks for reminding me…
Me too. That was one of the primary reasons I dropped out even if I was not one of the combatants. Please, not that again! John Baima Silver Shot Custom Clubs www.silvershot.com DFW Golf and the Java Swingweight Calculator
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been watching the recent posts, particularly WRT Jeff Pegg’s putter. There is no question in my mind, it has become advertising. A simple thank you and a recommendation to consider Jeff’s product after it was donated to RSG-Atlanta was one thing, but this has escalated far beyond that. Jeff has made subtle sales pitches in his posts and but the far more disturbing aspect is that others are damn near (or really are) shilling for him. These are from some the same people who have hammered others for exactly the same thing. There is also the fact that other people who have made similar ‘testimonials’ and suggestions for other products have been slammed and flamed for their efforts. And no, I am not referring just to YKW and FL, there have been other cases where someone has been flamed for shilling or advertising a product here or for posting an ‘unsolicited’ recommendation. Well, from the outside looking in, this appears to be the same thing, except of course, it is some of the regulars who are doing the shilling and providing the ‘unsolicited’ testimonials and it is on a much larger scale. I would also like to remind everyone that Jeff was hammered hard when he first tried to sell and advertise his product here, by a lot of the regulars. Whether it is deliberate or not, he now seems to have found a way to enlist the support of at least a few of those same people. I appreciate Jeff providing a prize for RSGAtlanta and I have no problem with publicly thanking him and providing a link to his site for his efforts, but things have gone WAY beyond that. Is this the way the group really wants to go? Does donating a prize to an RSG event get the provider some free slack on the anti-advertising ban? Does anyone else remember Steve Conlon and what happens when a regular starts posting ads?
I was the one that fought the Meowers most vehemently. I remember all to well that troll war and the time I put in to make it end. Untold e-mails contacting Altopia and Altopia’s president directly. However, I have to respectfully disagree with your opinion above, Dan. There have been many enthusiastic and some not so enthusiastic reviews given with golf related items ranging from the Swing Jacket to Pull Carts. I’ve seen everything written by Don Doyle and Jeff regarding the putter. This is being done in the same spirit that RSG events are held. Providing some golf marketing advice is not SPAM…. especially when the item isn’t even mentioned in the thread. I’ve been here a long time and while I’m only one voice in R.S.G., I believe I can see the difference between this offering and the SPAM that has been fed to us in the past. Scott
Response:
For the record, I just wanted to say that I have been publicly thanking on rec.sport.golf the many who have donated prizes to RSG-OHIO for six years. I also have asked Jeff for a donation, and he immediately offered a Pegg Putter as a prize for RSG-OHIO. Thanks, Jeff! See http://www.peggputters.com for more info. Dan did say he had no problem with that of course: I appreciate Jeff providing a prize for RSGAtlanta and I have no problem with publicly thanking him and providing a link to his site for his efforts, but things have gone WAY beyond that. Is this the way the group Dan, I have tried hard to forget the Dark Days of Steve Conlon and his threatening the group and personal death threats and perpetual animosity, thanks for reminding me… Does one person’s generous donation to *any* RSG event give him, as you say, "some free slack on the anti-advertising ban?" Well, no, I don’t think so. I do, however, think it deserves *some* kind of accomodation, if only the courtesy of a public "thank you," which he received.
– — — David "Thor" Collard — http://ttsoft.com/thor
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Sorry, Dan, but I have to disagree here. First a disclaimer. I don’t own a Pegg putter. I’ve never seen a Pegg putter. I’m not interested in trying a Pegg putter. I’m very happy with my P*ng Ans*r. Don’t get me wrong. I *do* respect your opinoin, and appreciate the efforts you’ve made to limit the spam in this group. In this case, however, I think it’s an overreaction. It would certainly be detremental to the usefulness of this group if we couldn’t recommend equipment we used, or had to censor our favorable posts about our G*******h or T******t equipment, less we be accused of being shills for the manufacturers.
I really like when you guys keep civil tongues in your heads. JC, this is a great example of how you can disagree, yet not go so far over the top that all that is left is ashes. Well said, IMO. Tim And when the wombat comes He will find me gone – SC
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<snip Illigitimi non carborundum
I *know* my carburetor is illegal, but I get better performance with the Weber. — Joe (never took Latin) Cartpath – www.joecartpath.com Basic Golf Clubmaking & Memphis Area Golf Course Guide and….The Memphis MG Page…
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<snip Illigitimi non carborundum I *know* my carburetor is illegal, but I get better performance with the Weber. — Joe (never took Latin) Cartpath – www.joecartpath.com
It isn’t Latin. Check out this site for the rest of the story. http://latin.about.com/library/blhumez01.htm?once=true& Rich
Response:
Sorry, Dan, but I have to disagree here. First a disclaimer. I don’t own a Pegg putter. I’ve never seen a Pegg putter. I’m not interested in trying a Pegg putter. I’m very happy with my P*ng Ans*r. I haven’t seen anything posted by Jeff Pegg that could be considered spam by any stretch of the imagination. IMHO, he’s been very careful to avoid that abuse and I commend him for it. As far as his "shills", I think that description is a insult to Don Doyle and is uncalled for. Don says his only connection with Pegg is that of a very satisfied customer, and I take Don at his word on that point. If Don can’t rave about a piece of equipment he feels is a valued addition to his arsenal, then most – if not all – of us are guilty of the same. This instance certianly does not fall into the catagory of those thinly-veiled "look what I found" spam posts. How many RSGers are playing Integra drivers, purchased from diamondtour.com, as a direct result of the same type of recommendation from people on this group? How about the Dynacraft Jackaroo? I could probably name dozens of other items or suppliers that have been "promoted" by RSG regular in the 6 years or so I’ve been here. I fail to see that Don’s enthusiam for the Pegg putter is any different – except that Jeff has been willing to give away some if his merchandise, and offer it up for free trial. As far as Jeff’s offer to send a putter around to those in the group to try, I think it’s a wonderful idea. It takes a lot of confidence in your product to offer it up to users in an unmoderated, public forum. In a group this critical, he probably has a lot more to lose than to gain. He made the offer in the most unobtrusive way possible – not even a link to his site. He just asked interested parties to email him. Is their really any difference in that offer and the free golf balls we got from Wilson and Maxfli because someone here told us where to get them? Is it really any different than people posting which websites have the best buys on Callaway balls? And yes, I do remember the Steve Conlon war *very* clearly. He crossed the line between offering good, valuable spam-free clubmaking advise to blatant advertising – and was nailed for it. As he should have been. IMHO, Jeff Pegg hasn’t done anything approaching that. He understands the rules and appears perfectly willing to play by them. As long as that continues, I see no reason to do anything other than to welcome him to the group. I don’t see the need to stretch the definition of spam to cover this case. Don’t get me wrong. I *do* respect your opinoin, and appreciate the efforts you’ve made to limit the spam in this group. In this case, however, I think it’s an overreaction. It would certainly be detremental to the usefulness of this group if we couldn’t recommend equipment we used, or had to censor our favorable posts about our G*******h or T******t equipment, less we be accused of being shills for the manufacturers. — Joe Cartpath – www.joecartpath.com Basic Golf Clubmaking & Memphis Area Golf Course Guide and….The Memphis MG Page…
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To those with whom I have made friends with here thank you. To the rest, keep arguing amongst yourselves until there is only one of you left. You will still be arguing though because that apparently is your goal in life. Regretfully, Don Illigitimi non carborundum
http://latin.about.com/library/blhumez01.htm?once=true& …this is as opposed to a "carborundrum", which is confusion over whether to have pasta the night before a morning round, and "carbonrundrum", which is what happens when you can’t decide which graphite shaft is best.
Response:
Sorry, Dan, but I have to disagree here. First a disclaimer. I don’t own a Pegg putter. I’ve never seen a Pegg putter. I’m not interested in trying a Pegg putter. I’m very happy with my P*ng Ans*r. I haven’t seen anything posted by Jeff Pegg that could be considered spam by any stretch of the imagination. IMHO, he’s been very careful to avoid that abuse and I commend him for it. As far as his "shills", I think that description is a insult to Don Doyle and is uncalled for. Don says his only connection with Pegg is that of a very satisfied customer, and I take Don at his word on that point. If Don can’t rave about a piece of equipment he feels is a valued addition to his arsenal, then most – if not all – of us are guilty of the same. This instance certianly does not fall into the catagory of those thinly-veiled "look what I found" spam posts. How many RSGers are playing Integra drivers, purchased from diamondtour.com, as a direct result of the same type of recommendation from people on this group? How about the Dynacraft Jackaroo? I could probably name dozens of other items or suppliers that have been "promoted" by RSG regular in the 6 years or so I’ve been here. I fail to see that Don’s enthusiam for the Pegg putter is any different – except that Jeff has been willing to give away some if his merchandise, and offer it up for free trial. As far as Jeff’s offer to send a putter around to those in the group to try, I think it’s a wonderful idea. It takes a lot of confidence in your product to offer it up to users in an unmoderated, public forum. In a group this critical, he probably has a lot more to lose than to gain. He made the offer in the most unobtrusive way possible – not even a link to his site. He just asked interested parties to email him. Is their really any difference in that offer and the free golf balls we got from Wilson and Maxfli because someone here told us where to get them? Is it really any different than people posting which websites have the best buys on Callaway balls? And yes, I do remember the Steve Conlon war *very* clearly. He crossed the line between offering good, valuable spam-free clubmaking advise to blatant advertising – and was nailed for it. As he should have been. IMHO, Jeff Pegg hasn’t done anything approaching that. He understands the rules and appears perfectly willing to play by them. As long as that continues, I see no reason to do anything other than to welcome him to the group. I don’t see the need to stretch the definition of spam to cover this case. Don’t get me wrong. I *do* respect your opinoin, and appreciate the efforts you’ve made to limit the spam in this group. In this case, however, I think it’s an overreaction. It would certainly be detremental to the usefulness of this group if we couldn’t recommend equipment we used, or had to censor our favorable posts about our G*******h or T******t equipment, less we be accused of being shills for the manufacturers. (sorry if this got posted twice, my laptop and/or Outlook Express appears to have consumed the original) — Joe Cartpath – www.joecartpath.com Basic Golf Clubmaking & Memphis Area Golf Course Guide and….The Memphis MG Page…
Response:
Steve Conlon was a regular poster who also happened to be a professional clubmaker.
<long explanation snipped Thanks for filling me in, Dan. Rich
Response:
To those with whom I have made friends with here thank you. To the rest, keep arguing amongst yourselves until there is only one of you left. You will still be arguing though because that apparently is your goal in life. Regretfully, Don
Illigitimi non carborundum — "If you can’t hit ‘em long ‘n straight at least hit ‘em straight. Me? I can’t do either." Joe Wright RSG Role Call: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/wrightj.htm —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–
Response:
Dan, I read your post with great interest and concern. For the record, there was no intent on my part to spam or shill for Jeff Pegg and I do not think that I have. Jeff and I previously discussed via email if it would be ok to post about his requesting help for a slogan. I thought it would be ok and even wrote to others in RSG asking their opinion – all were positive so I told him to post it. For what it is worth, and to Jeff I am sorry to post this but I think it is important. Jeff does not have a strong command of the written word – as he has indicated this in some past posts. He simply wrote to me asking for help – nothing more – nothing offered to me – just one person asking for another’s advice. This has happened before and after I asked him to donate a putter – he has simply come to me asking for an opinion and I hope he continues to do so. Regarding the putter – it was my idea to ask Jeff to donate it. The sole intent was to get a nice prize for RSG-ATLANTA because in private email Randy had indicated that he wanted to give everyone a prize. It then evolved into offering it to ALL RSG’ers thus enabling everyone to be included in the "event". It took all of one email to Jeff and a reply within minutes. Hell, he couldn’t have time to even think about it – he just did it because he is truly a nice guy. I know this for a fact as I met with him at the PGA Show this past January in Orlando. LET THIS BE PERFECTLY CLEAR: You have incorrectly concluded the following: "Whether it is deliberate or not, he now seems to have found a way to enlist the support of at least a few of those same people.
Jeff very very seldom posted here in the recent past. He certainly has better things to do than sell a couple of putters in RSG. I believe he has sold somewhere near 1500 of them in the past year – you do the math. The man truly believes (as do I) that his putter can aid EVERYONE. The amount of money he could make from RSG wouldn’t amount to a pimple on a knat’s ass. To suggest what you have – as stated above is a blatant untruth and I sincerely hope that you will take the time to talk to Jeff and then issue a retraction. You can even use his 800 number – so you don’t have an excuse for not talking to him unless you are afraid you have mis-spoken and choose not to admit it. You are also accusing "those same people" – your mind is the only one that knows who you think they are. Why don’t you email them and ask them? When a foot comes back through your monitor and kicks you in the ass, I think you will have your answer. To think that he would "enlist the support" and then for you to print it certainly doesn’t say much for what you think of your fellow RSG’ers. I personally find it very insulting. I put in many many hours of my time and many $$$ in material to help Randy with RSG-ATLANTA and for you to suggest that I would spam because of a free putter being sent to the event is absurd and irresponsible on your part. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but don’t make statements to which you have no knowledge. You will notice that nowhere in his post did he mention his web site. I do not read every post and do not intend to do so but, there has been more shit stirred concerning this by Trollicity than anyone concerning Jeff’s request. Most have seen the value in it and wish to participate in the contest. Having donated a gift to RSG-ATLANTA does not give ANYONE the right to spam this group and I do not believe that Jeff has done that. Hell, I donated a lot more in value than his putter and I realize that this is not the place to try to sell anything. Put RSG sales in your business plan and the bank will bounce you out the door on your ass en route to the loony bin. To me spam is the posting of golf vacations, buy this item, and of course the stuff said about YKW’s items and the way that he has written them, etc. Jeff, has not done that. I was the one who mentioned Jeff’s company in the first reply to his request. Go back and read my post carefully. Now, lets get down to common courtesy. Jeff asked a question – he asked for some help from me and RSG period! – some offered and some (very few – I think three including you) have bitched. Let me tell you something, this is becoming the most self centered group on the net. It seems that all that is being done is looking for the fly shit in the pepper. If you wish to go through life without helping someone so be it – I on the other hand try to do so everyday and I sleep quite well – try it you may like it. As I stated in my reply to Jeff’s original post: "If there is a majority that think that this is spam – it will immediately cease. Please, this is not intended to start a war. Let’s just help him out and have some fun doing it." Well you are certainly not a majority, but I will ask Jeff to cease replying to his original thread. I will also ask Jeff to not send his putter around so people can try it or to send another free putter to any RSG Event. I will send the long drive awards to RSG- Cincy at no charge because I told John Pflum that I would. I will not send another item to any RSG event because pray tell, it will be considered spamming by some. What is the true definition of spam in RSG? I honestly don’t know. I don’t think that anyone does. YKW certainly has a different opinion than mine and mine is different than yours. I got blasted with foul remarks about me and my family – which IMO is far worse than any spam – to which I didn’t give a reply – I simply plonked them. Where were you then Dan? What would you do – if there was a thread with your name being "associated" like mine has? I guess that a person asking for help with their product is of greater concern to you than a RSG "neighbor" being slandered by some anonymous asshole. The bottom line is that this whole thing has gotten out of line and I don’t have the time or desire to participate in this BS or RSG any longer. Some I am sure will say good riddance. I reiterate, I am not involved with Pegg Putters in any manner. All I did was try to institute some fun into a group that is getting stagnant (with the exception of RSG-Atlanta of course) by suggesting a contest. Geeze, an RSG’er might even see their slogan in some national advertising. Now, wouldn’t that be terrible!? I do not agree with Trollicity, but there may be some merit in reevaluating the intent of the group. Spam is easily controlled – simply write to the person’s ISP and report the abuse. I don’t think that Jeff’s post is abuse but it no longer matters to me as it is now yours to figure out. To those with whom I have made friends with here thank you. To the rest, keep arguing amongst yourselves until there is only one of you left. You will still be arguing though because that apparently is your goal in life. Regretfully, Don – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I have been watching the recent posts, particularly WRT Jeff Pegg’s putter. There is no question in my mind, it has become advertising. A simple thank you and a recommendation to consider Jeff’s product after it was donated to RSG-Atlanta was one thing, but this has escalated far beyond that. Jeff has made subtle sales pitches in his posts and but the far more disturbing aspect is that others are damn near (or really are) shilling for him. These are from some the same people who have hammered others for exactly the same thing. There is also the fact that other people who have made similar ‘testimonials’ and suggestions for other products have been slammed and flamed for their efforts. And no, I am not referring just to YKW and FL, there have been other cases where someone has been flamed for shilling or advertising a product here or for posting an ‘unsolicited’ recommendation. Well, from the outside looking in, this appears to be the same thing, except of course, it is some of the regulars who are doing the shilling and providing the ‘unsolicited’ testimonials and it is on a much larger scale. I would also like to remind everyone that Jeff was hammered hard when he first tried to sell and advertise his product here, by a lot of the regulars. Whether it is deliberate or not, he now seems to have found a way to enlist the support of at least a few of those same people. I appreciate Jeff providing a prize for RSGAtlanta and I have no problem with publicly thanking him and providing a link to his site for his efforts, but things have gone WAY beyond that. Is this the way the group really wants to go? Does donating a prize to an RSG event get the provider some free slack on the anti-advertising ban? Does anyone else remember Steve Conlon and what happens when a regular starts posting ads?
Response:
[good post snipped] My humble $.02 Flame away.
No flames here, Dave. I think you are right on target. I unsubscribed three weeks ago because I saw such a deterioration of RSG that I feel it is just a waste of time now. I pop in from time to time and skim articles but nothing has improved and, in fact, seems even _worse_ if that is possible. My biggest complaint is that the GH/FL nonsense–both sides of it–has ruined a really good golf newsgroup. Although those who taunt them are not exempted, things were pretty good here before last November…for whatever that says. There is simply too little golf content and too much crap now. Bruce http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/newmanb.htm http://go.to/bruce_newman
Response:
Dan, for the record, I agree with you in theory. For that matter, I agree with you in practice, too. I don’t think I’ve "shilled" for Jeff Pegg. I’ve certainly tried to measure my remarks carefully to stop short of that. I have no particular reason to try to help him sell anything, only to thank him for what he did for RSG-ATLANTA. And I did that. Does it change the rules for him? Absolutely not. Maybe I’ve missed it, but I’ve yet to see an article in which he’s posted anything that even remotely could be perceived as a sales pitch. He’s done some soliciting for ways to advertise (elsewhere), but no sales pitch here. I don’t think that crosses the line, but if my perception is misguided, then I’m open to being told so. Does one person’s generous donation to *any* RSG event give him, as you say, "some free slack on the anti-advertising ban?" Well, no, I don’t think so. I do, however, think it deserves *some* kind of accomodation, if only the courtesy of a public "thank you," which he received. It’s straddling the line right now, IMHO, and I’m uneasy about the direction it’s headed. But I don’t agree that it’s crossed the line. Maybe I’ve missed a post where it has. Randy RSG-ATLANTA Information: http://www.YouGoGolf.com/rsg-atlanta.htm The RSG TOUR: These Guys are Goons My RSG Roll Call profile: http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/brownr.htm RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html Voiceovers/Narration/Voice Acting: www.RandyBrownProductions.com To e-mail me, go to my website at www.YouGoGolf.com and find the link.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have been watching the recent posts, particularly WRT Jeff Pegg’s putter. There is no question in my mind, it has become advertising. A simple thank you and a recommendation to consider Jeff’s product after it was donated to RSG-Atlanta was one thing, but this has escalated far beyond that. Jeff has made subtle sales pitches in his posts and but the far more disturbing aspect is that others are damn near (or really are) shilling for him. These are from some the same people who have hammered others for exactly the same thing. There is also the fact that other people who have made similar ‘testimonials’ and suggestions for other products have been slammed and flamed for their efforts. And no, I am not referring just to YKW and FL, there have been other cases where someone has been flamed for shilling or advertising a product here or for posting an ‘unsolicited’ recommendation. Well, from the outside looking in, this appears to be the same thing, except of course, it is some of the regulars who are doing the shilling and providing the ‘unsolicited’ testimonials and it is on a much larger scale. I would also like to remind everyone that Jeff was hammered hard when he first tried to sell and advertise his product here, by a lot of the regulars. Whether it is deliberate or not, he now seems to have found a way to enlist the support of at least a few of those same people. I appreciate Jeff providing a prize for RSGAtlanta and I have no problem with publicly thanking him and providing a link to his site for his efforts, but things have gone WAY beyond that. Is this the way the group really wants to go? Does donating a prize to an RSG event get the provider some free slack on the anti-advertising ban? Does anyone else remember Steve Conlon and what happens when a regular starts posting ads? — Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm
Response:
For those of us who were not around then could you fill us in, briefly,on this bit of institutional history?
Frankly, it looked a lot like the current GH against "the mob" that we all see everyday. Steve made some good golf posts, but started leveraging his position as "regular poster" to that of regular advertiser for his clubmaking business. It became a terrible flame fest for a couple of months. An important difference, IMHO, is that GH has stuck around longer, and – without concealing his business interests – is no longer particularly obtrusive about his commercial ventures. GH still often goes "over the top", but he’s certainly not alone in that type of activity. I agree with Dan, that the pegg putter threads have become as commercial as anything GH ever did. I’ve felt for sometime that it’s GH’s comportment, not the _current_ content of his _golf_ posts that still makes him a target. As an aside, IMHO sometimes those who FL takes on are not completely without blame. I think FL is patently wrong in most of her assertions about the nature of RSG, but I understand some of her frustration with what she determines to be "the mob". I think some of those involved in the flame wars here – both sides of the fence – do it because they enjoy the confrontation. Good, old fashioned, emotional venting (rather than a rational response or non-reply) makes one feel so righteous, huh? My humble $.02 Flame away. May your next round be your best round. Dave RSG FAQ: at http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html
Response:
I have been watching the recent posts, particularly WRT Jeff Pegg’s putter. There is no question in my mind, it has become advertising. A simple thank you and a recommendation to consider Jeff’s product after it was donated to RSG-Atlanta was one thing, but this has escalated far beyond that. Jeff has made subtle sales pitches in his posts and but the far more disturbing aspect is that others are damn near (or really are) shilling for him. These are from some the same people who have hammered others for exactly the same thing. There is also the fact that other people who have made similar ‘testimonials’ and suggestions for other products have been slammed and flamed for their efforts. And no, I am not referring just to YKW and FL, there have been other cases where someone has been flamed for shilling or advertising a product here or for posting an ‘unsolicited’ recommendation. Well, from the outside looking in, this appears to be the same thing, except of course, it is some of the regulars who are doing the shilling and providing the ‘unsolicited’ testimonials and it is on a much larger scale. I would also like to remind everyone that Jeff was hammered hard when he first tried to sell and advertise his product here, by a lot of the regulars. Whether it is deliberate or not, he now seems to have found a way to enlist the support of at least a few of those same people. I appreciate Jeff providing a prize for RSGAtlanta and I have no problem with publicly thanking him and providing a link to his site for his efforts, but things have gone WAY beyond that. Is this the way the group really wants to go? Does donating a prize to an RSG event get the provider some free slack on the anti-advertising ban? Does anyone else remember Steve Conlon and what happens when a regular starts posting ads? — Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm
Response:
For those of us who were not around then could you fill us in, briefly,on this bit of institutional history? Rich
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Does anyone else remember Steve Conlon and what happens when a regular starts posting ads? — Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm
Response:
For those of us who were not around then could you fill us in, briefly,on this bit of institutional history?
Steve Conlon was a regular poster who also happened to be a professional clubmaker. For quite a while he posted clubmaking tips, answered questions and was generally very helpful. If you have read anything from John Baima then you know the sort of poster Conlon was before he started advertising. You knew he was a clubmaker and you could contact him (his website was in his sig) if you wanted him to build you some clubs. I contacted him myself for a quote, before I decided to start building my own clubs. But then he began posting ads for his clubs. He was asked politely by a lot of people to stop advertising, people who had been on friendly terms with Steve, but he refused. A number of other people, myself included, tried to settle things down between the more hard-core anti-spammers and the few people who wanted to let Steve continue advertising. Those few felt that because Conlon was a regular poster and that most of his posts were not advertisements, that he could be allowed to slide on the ads. But the vast majority of posters clearly felt that was like letting a camel get his nose under the tent and strongly objected. Conlon then stopped posting anything but advertisements and attacks against the anti-spammers and a major flame war ensued, with about 99% of the posters coming down against advertising in the newsgroup, golf related or not. This went on for several a couple of months, until Conlon stopped posting. The Conlon flame war is probably the most motivating factor against allowing advertising in the newsgroup for those of us who have been here long term (4-5 or more years). A number of former long term and well respected regulars simply left and have never returned or only very occasionally post now. It didn’t help that shortly after that the newsgroup was hit by a wave of true trolls who completely disrupted the group for months. These trolls didn’t just begin new threads, they took over existing threads, constantly changed their ID’s and otherwise actively attempted to defeat filters and killfiles. Eventually we were able to force Altopia (an ISP that many of the trolls posted from and who refused to police their customers) to change their TOS and shut down the trolls. It took a barrage of complaints to UUNET and a threat to apply hit Altopia with the Usenet Death Penalty, but the trolling did stop. Since that time RSG has been one of the most spam and troll free major newsgroups on Usenet (not excepting the PI, YKN, FL stuff). If someone posts an ad here and it appears innocent then he/she is normally politely warned via the newsgroup and/or e-mail that ads are not permitted. In the past year they have been redirected to alt.golf.forsale. Repeat offenders are reported to their ISP’s, either directly or via SpamCop. We also have several very knowledgeable people in the group who can track and decipher header info, including a Usenet systems administrator, so even forged headers are no protection. — Dan Driscoll Member USGA, NCGA RSG FAQ: http://ttsoft.com/thor/rsggolf.html RSG Roll Call http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/driscolld.htm